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The Official Saku Koivu Thread


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If Koivu had been the one to call the team meeting, I don't think this thread would even exist. The fact that somebody else had to step up and take on the role of team leader tells me that Koivu isn't filling that role for the team right now. He doesn't look like himself out there. For the first time I can ever remember people are questioning his effort. This tells me he is either trying to play with an illness (mono perhaps?) or there is something wrong with his psyche. Maybe the fact somebody else called the meeting pissed Koivu off or made him realize it was something that he, as captain, should have already done. Maybe he has too much going on in his head right now. No matter what, I think stepping down as captain would let him focus back on himself, take a lot of the pressure off, and give him a chance to lead the best way he knows how: by playing his hardest and leading by example.

Of course, nothing will happen because he won't step down, and taking the C from him would ruin the entire team's morale and kill any chance of the playoffs.

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I'm thinking there is something more going on. Vision problems :?- :?- he has missed a lot of chances in close lately, where it seems like he just couldn't find the puck. Frustration is leading to the penalties.

I've said this b4, that after Roy he is my favorite post 70's Habby. But given that he has probably around another 2-3 years remaining as being an impact player, if we can add someone younger and he waives his no-trade, we may as well trade him. Considering the number of d-men we are going to lose this year, and the difficulty in siging free agents in Montreal, I don't see montreal being a contender for at least another 2-3 years now. I'm not sure they can sign the only guy they should sign from this year's UFA's (Markov), and if they can't they are going to be in even WORSE trouble next year.

The only d-men other then Markov I'd like to see back is Komisarik who still a work in progress and has a lot of upside, and Streit - but as a 5th/6th d-man. Carboneau has given him WAY to much ice time.

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If Koivu had been the one to call the team meeting, I don't think this thread would even exist. The fact that somebody else had to step up and take on the role of team leader tells me that Koivu isn't filling that role for the team right now.

From what I read, the 'meeting' just kind of happened - somebody started talking, and they all stayed and talked for awhile i.e. someone didn't formally call the meeting.

Anyway, I've always felt the whole 'captain' bit gets blown out of proportion. He doesn't control the other guys - he's in charge of talking to the refs, and probably represents the other guys' views to the coach sometimes. Yeah, it's nice if a captain shows leadership qualities, which Saku has often done through example at least. But, it's really the coach that has to find ways to motivate the team, plan for the game, change strategies and tactics as required, etc.

Some people (not you) have gone so far as to suggest that Koivu isn't a good captain because his team has never made it past the second round, or seeded higher than 7th, etc. etc. That's irrelevant to the question of whether he's a good captain or not, IMO. It's a team sport, after all.

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Wow, I'm so glad you guy's have no say over who is captain. Cuz last time i checked he was voted in by his team mates. And I bet if the 22 other guys in the dressing room took a vote today he would still be captain. He was a god in mid december. Did he just all of a sudden become a bad captain? We are so good at running our best players out of town. It's amazing really. Is it any wonder why we have a tough time attracting free agents.

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If Koivu had been the one to call the team meeting, I don't think this thread would even exist. The fact that somebody else had to step up and take on the role of team leader tells me that Koivu isn't filling that role for the team right now.

I tend to agree with you, However, just to add to the discussion. PJ Stock, on Montreal radio, told a story about how he, a career 4th liner basically called a players meeting. He says it's irrelevent who calls them. The story goes, while playing for Boston, the team lost several in a row. The coach at the time Robbie Ftorek was super passionate on the bench, yet at games end, he walked into the room, and said "Not our best effort tonight boys, practice at 10:30AM". PJ, who sat next to the door, looks up and says, "is that it, that's all you're going to say". What followed was a very productive meeting. Lets not look to seriously at who called a meeting that didn't seem to solve anything anyway.

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If Koivu had been the one to call the team meeting, I don't think this thread would even exist. The fact that somebody else had to step up and take on the role of team leader tells me that Koivu isn't filling that role for the team right now.

No one knew exactly what happened other than the fact that "players started talking" and they closed the doors and had the meeting. Perhaps one or two started angrily shouting things and Koivu stood up and closed the doors, sat and told those players to continue because it was time to air things out.

There's such a monochromatic view of how a leader should be on these boards that it gets grating at times. It's absolutely sure that at this point Koivu hasn't done anything overt to take control - anything that the media has seen. However, despite the bad penalties, Koivu has still put in a more consistent effort than most. Even Carbonneau said as much when he put Higgins and Ryder down in the lineup in favour of harder working Streit and Johnson. "Koivu is working hard, but he needs someone with him," was the gist of his statement.

We don't know if he's been pulling people to the side, one by one, to talk things through. Hell, maybe he isn't doing some of the things he's "supposed" to do according to some on these boards, but he's going through one of his worst slumps ever, and it's hard to be the ultimate positive influence when you're struggling - how many of you could be great leaders with your confidence in the mud?

Steve Yzerman was called a bad leader until the day he lifted the Cup, and now he's considered one of the best ever. Come on guys, I know the team has been struggling, but not a single one of you actually knows what's going on in Montreal. And yet a large majority, it seems, is quite willing to point the finger. At least if you're going to assign blame, assign it based on what you can see as fact, rather than what you've decided must be happening based on the very, very little you know.

Fact: Montreal has virtually no ability to sustain any kind of offensive pressure since players are backing out at a ridiculous rate from the opposition end when they lose the puck. Is this due to a lack of leadership, or is it due to confidence because the coach has called out a great many for being defensively irresponsible? Or is it the set plan, regardless of score, to trap the neutral zone (ineffectively, I might add) in order to regain the puck and start another attack?

Fact: The Canadiens defenders don't help sustain more than three or four attacks a game, and get a guy like Boumeister (I'm sure I butchered the spelling on that one) is behind the Habs net more than a handful of times. Is that due to a lack of leadership or a lack of confidence knowing that they'll be benched if they make a bad pinch or defensive error, or they'll get scored on because they don't trust their teammates enough to cover their pinch?

Does anyone actually think Mark Messier, or Jean Beliveau himself, could walk into the dressing room, call all these guys to task, and suddenly they'll play better? I highly doubt it, myself. There is an ongoing malaise which no amount of yelling or cajoling is going to fix. There's only so much an on-ice captain can do. Sure, he can call people out in the dressing room, but other than going out and working hard on the ice, really, he doesn't have a lot of power. The real power lies above him in the coaching and management.

More players have to get the message. How come we've heard of no no-pucks practices from Montreal this season? Where are the extra practices that are supposed to help when guys get in a funk. In fact, we've heard quite the opposite rather consistently all year. Players are given days off, even the whole team is given time off. In my experience, when you're struggling, you work harder, not stop working altogether.

Again, I'm not saying Koivu couldn't be doing more, because it's quite possible that he's at a point where he doesn't know how to get things going and so therefore doesn't try much at all. However, what I am suggesting is that pointing the finger at the on-ice captain for the team's troubles is weak, at best. I hate to say it, but even if Koivu went out there and produced two points per game, the Habs would still have been losing a majority since before Christmas.

This problem goes much, much deeper than a captain.

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I'm not saying all the blame is on Koivu. I'm simply suggesting something that might jumpstart not only the team, but Koivu himself. Eric Desjardins was a great player, but he couldn't handle being captain. Same thing with Mike Modano. With Modano as captain, the team got off to a decent start and everyone was happy. Then Modano starting slumping, putting up career worst numbers. He removed himself as captain, and he got back to being the great player that he is.

Similar story this season. Team gets off to a great start, including Koivu, and everybody is happy. Things start going down the tubes and the captain's game starts slagging. Face it, this year there is more pressure on Koivu than any year in the past. Expectations for this team were bubbling. Most fans were clamoring Cup finals, and so were analysts back in early December. That is something a Koivu team has never had, the expectation that they can compete for a Cup. Maybe the pressure caused the slump, maybe the slum started on its own and the pressure has just started adding to it, I don't know.

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I'm not saying all the blame is on Koivu.

Why shouldn't it be? He's the captain. He's the teams best player. He's the best paid. Why shouldn't he shoulder most if not all of the blame? He has done nothing in the last month or more to make this team better. He has not called a players meeting, chewed out his teammmates or most importantly raised his game which is what he is suppose to do

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Why shouldn't it be? He's the captain. He's the teams best player. He's the best paid. Why shouldn't he shoulder most if not all of the blame? He has done nothing in the last month or more to make this team better. He has not called a players meeting, chewed out his teammmates or most importantly raised his game which is what he is suppose to do

I agree with all your points, but hockey is still a team game. You can be the greatest leader in the game, but people still have to listen to you. The team still has to play within a system. You still have to compete against other teams.

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I agree with all your points, but hockey is still a team game. You can be the greatest leader in the game, but people still have to listen to you. The team still has to play within a system. You still have to compete against other teams.

He's just one guy who is slumping. The whole team, with the exception of 1 or 2 a night, is playing like s*&t. You are 100% right. The day Carbo stops benching, and everyone stops looking for scapegoats.

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I'm all for benching a guy to light a fire under his ass, though I do disagree with Carbo's choices. Production should have nothing to do with getting benched. Now if Carbo sees a guy not giving his all, that's a guy who needs a fire under his bum.

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Koivu is a complicated case.

He's a legitimate #1 centre for about half of a season, but more than that, and his game suffers. This isn't the first time he has a huge dip in performance at the 2/3 point of the season - the same thing happened last season, and I seem to recall similar patterns in other years, but not as bad. My fear is that some combination of age and injury are sapping him of his endurance, and that it will only get worse.

Then again: for the first half, he, Higgins, and Souray were basically our entire offence. At some point you need secondary scorers to step up or the main guys are going to get shut down. Saks' problem may be as simple as that - there's no releve and so he gets crushed by exhaustion and by opposition checking. If the Russians hadn't sucked ass, we might be seeing a different Koivu.

In any case, Bob needs to get another bona-fide offensive centreman in here ASAP, if only to extend Saku's career.

As for whether he's a leader - gimme a break. Does nobody remember how we wilted without him against the Hurricanes? 'Nuff said.

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As for whether he's a leader - gimme a break. Does nobody remember how we wilted without him against the Hurricanes? 'Nuff said.

They lost 4 straight, hard-fought, one goal games. It had more to do with losing his passing and effort than it did his leadership. If you want to play the "getting swept after Koivu got hurt" card, I could play the "they make the playoffs in 2002 with an inferior team while Koivu was out with his cancer recovery" card.

Anyways, my main argument is not about his leadership abilities. My argument is that is seems that maybe the pressure has gotten to him. As I've said, this team had more expectations put on it than any other team he has captained. Not all good leaders can handle that pressure as captain, I've used Desjardins and Modano as an example for that.

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They lost 4 straight, hard-fought, one goal games. It had more to do with losing his passing and effort than it did his leadership. If you want to play the "getting swept after Koivu got hurt" card, I could play the "they make the playoffs in 2002 with an inferior team while Koivu was out with his cancer recovery" card.

Anyways, my main argument is not about his leadership abilities. My argument is that is seems that maybe the pressure has gotten to him. As I've said, this team had more expectations put on it than any other team he has captained. Not all good leaders can handle that pressure as captain, I've used Desjardins and Modano as an example for that.

You make some great points in all your posts Puck. As much as I love Koivu, I love my Habs more. I expect if Koivu was to give up the C it would mean his end in Montreal (I know it doesn't have to, like in Dallas but I believe it would). Who do you suggest as captain material on our current team?

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They didn't lose against the Hurricanes because Saku was out. They lost because Gerber was replaced with Ward. Suddenly, the Canes had goaltending...

We were leading handily when Ward played his first game. Koivu out and we fell apart. He seems to play at a very high level when in the playoffs/Olympics.

I agree with you Brobin that he should be our #2 center, not #1 but until we get a real #1 we have no choice.

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They didn't lose against the Hurricanes because Saku was out. They lost because Gerber was replaced with Ward. Suddenly, the Canes had goaltending...

Yeah, that too. People tend to forget that it was later known that Gerber was quite ill in that series, the reason behind his poor play and replacement.

You make some great points in all your posts Puck. As much as I love Koivu, I love my Habs more. I expect if Koivu was to give up the C it would mean his end in Montreal (I know it doesn't have to, like in Dallas but I believe it would). Who do you suggest as captain material on our current team?

I have no idea. Given that none of us knows what really goes on in the locker room or in players' heads, we're all kinda speaking out of our asses on this subject, haha.

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Koivu is a complicated case.

He's a legitimate #1 centre for about half of a season, but more than that, and his game suffers. This isn't the first time he has a huge dip in performance at the 2/3 point of the season - the same thing happened last season, and I seem to recall similar patterns in other years, but not as bad. My fear is that some combination of age and injury are sapping him of his endurance, and that it will only get worse.

Then again: for the first half, he, Higgins, and Souray were basically our entire offence. At some point you need secondary scorers to step up or the main guys are going to get shut down. Saks' problem may be as simple as that - there's no releve and so he gets crushed by exhaustion and by opposition checking. If the Russians hadn't sucked ass, we might be seeing a different Koivu.

In any case, Bob needs to get another bona-fide offensive centreman in here ASAP, if only to extend Saku's career.

As for whether he's a leader - gimme a break. Does nobody remember how we wilted without him against the Hurricanes? 'Nuff said.

Good thought CC. I like to think that he is a little more conditioned than this, but maybe he is being worn down with the lack of help from others. Definitely agree that a #1 center would help his career ....and of course this team. Hopefully, Bob will see this soon.

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My argument against Koivu totally removes the leadership factor from the equasion, because like some of you said, we really don't know what kind of leader he is...we're not in the dressing room. My problem with him is his lack of production for long stretches of seasons, and his lack of discipline on the ice. The only knock I can put on him leadership-wise with absolute confidence is that he fails to lead by example (that's what we can all see, what he does on the ice) far too many nights.

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Saku is a great player ... great leader who is lost ... he's not the coach. He can only motivate teammates to a point. they have to do for themselves or it's never going to happen. Unfortunaly Koivu is not a #1 center .. never has been but he's asked every year to be and does his best to do it. You can obviously tell he's not enjoying his time on the ice .. and that can't happen ... all players play much better when they're having fun ... just like the average guy at work. They need to not practice and go and do something fun as a team ... get away from all the negative vibes. I mention that because It seems that all the benching and yelling isn't helping turn things around ... it's time to try something different.

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Listen, I love Koivu like the rest of us but he wasnt the reason we lost to carolina last year.

In the first 2 games Koivu was invisible. Sure he got 2 secondary assists but I often rewatch the first 2 games and I HONESTLY tell you that he didnt create much. The real good forwards early on were Bonk, Perez, Pleks, Ryder (only in game 2), Ribeiro (was making good plays) and obviously Kovalev.

The reason we lost is simple. We always choke in the playoffs when we face a tough goalie. See 1998 vs Hasek. 2004 vs Khabibulin. Both instances we got swept. Surprise surprise Ward comes in and in each of his 4 starts we lose.

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