Theodore or Garon

[ricucity]

Who should be in the net in game 5?

[Ribeiro]

OMG.

I can't believe you actually posted this.

[ricucity]

Okay, I think Garon should get the nod. A change of scenery might be good for the team and I think that the Habs would rally around Garon similarly to how Legace was rallied around and Kipper was rallied around earlier in the year.

No doubt is Theo the better goalie, but he simply isn't playing like it, and we can't wait for that to happen.

[ricucity]

Originally posted by Ribeiro

OMG.  

I can't believe you actually posted this.

Why not? Two votes for Garon to one for Theodore. The answer does not seem too damn obvious now does it?

[jl.roberts]

I'd feel more confident with Garon, but it's not happening.

The boys can work their butts off all they want but if Theo's not there to show up and play like he can what else can they do? If he doesn't play like he can tomorrow, things change drastically.

I'm not doubting Theo, but he's been very bad so far and if he can't turn it around Mathieu Garon assumes the #1 role, or at least the chance to proove he deserves the spot.

GO HABS

[Ribeiro]

but he's been very bad so far

You're a sports writer? :nono:

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Garon all the way.

It won't happen because Theo had a great year TWO YEARS AGO. (he has sucked ass since but he won the hart...so.....)

Hell, maybe we could tape his stick to the crossbar.

:monkey::monkey::monkey::monkey::monkey::monkey::monkey::monkey::monkey:

[jl.roberts]

Originally posted by Ribeiro

but he's been very bad so far

You're a sports writer? :nono:

I'm a habs fan with opinions on the Habs and I find it fun to talk about my favourite team. I just want the freekin team to win as much as the next guy.

Theodore is a good goalie, but he can't play like one when it counts. As puck said, he's only played a couple of real good playoff games before.

It's great that he can make big saves on difficult shots, but sometimes the even bigger saves are the simple ones.

I gotta believe in Theo. He's the goalie for the CH and we're trying to win a playoff series. But in all honesty, after his play so far in this series how can you feel confident with a guy like Sergei Samsonov breaking in on him?

[Ribeiro]

Okay, yeah.

Go with an unproven player in Goal, the most important position in the playoffs.

Have him play the most important game of the Habs this year.

That's worse than anything Julien could ever come up with.

[jl.roberts]

We've been playing the biggest game of the year for a week. And the man who's supposed to deliver hasn't. It's nice to know that if Theo falters (and god I hope he doesn't), we've got a guy like Garon there to jump all over him and take the reigns.

If someone told me that Mathieu Garon was starting for the Habs tomorrow I wouldn't have any second thoughts about it. I'd be totally confident because I think he's a great goalie.

[Edited on 2004/4/15 by jl.roberts]

[Ribeiro]

Theodore is a good goalie, but he can't play like one when it counts. As puck said, he's only played a couple of real good playoff games before.

Wrong, he's only had major runs in the playoffs for 2 years.

1 year, he ruled as MVP.

This year, he's doing average behind a below-average defense.

He's played more good Playoff games than bad.

But in all honesty, after his play so far in this series how can you feel confident with a guy like Sergei Samsonov breaking in on him?

No, I feel no confidence in the defense stopping him. Theodore made huge OT saves yesterday night and I"m perfectly comfortable with him saving our asses like he does every single night.

[Edited on 2004/4/15 by Ribeiro]

[ricucity]

Originally posted by Ribeiro

Okay, yeah.  

Go with an unproven player in Goal, the most important position in the playoffs.

Have him play the most important game of the Habs this year.  

That's worse than anything Julien could ever come up with.

Jose Theodore hasn't proven ANYTHING in these playoffs.

Okay, well, that is an exaggeration as it is tough to say that he has sucked, but he has been very off at points. He should have stopped 70% of the goals he let up, and you can't change that. No matter what goalie, when he is faltering, he needs to be replaced. Jose was awful last year, and he came back strong this year. And now he is playing poorly. He has big clumps of inconsistency it seems, and a change is then needed.

[ricucity]

Originally posted by jl.roberts

We've been playing the biggest game of the year for a week. And the man who's supposed to deliver hasn't. It's nice to know that if Theo falters (and god I hope he doesn't), we've got a guy like Garon there to jump all over him and take the reigns.  

If someone told me that Mathieu Garon was starting for the Habs tomorrow I wouldn't have any second thoughts about it. I'd be totally confident because I think he's a great goalie.

[Edited on 2004/4/15 by jl.roberts]

And I second a fellow sports writer in this statement.

The hot goalie is the one who should be in net. The goalie who has played less than his abilities should be on the bench. Any forward in the playoffs who goes out and performs at a subpar level will sit the next game, and that should not change at the goaltender position. Yes, he is the most important player out there, so why leave someone who is struggling so much in to fulfill that role? He is obviously shaken right now and needs a rest.

[Ribeiro]

Look at his playoffs stats. It's absolutely ridiculous that 2 sports writers would say something like, "He's only had a few good games in he playoffs", when he has had far more good ones than bad.

1996-1997 Canadiens 2 167 1 1 0 7 0 2.51

1997-1998 Canadiens 3 119 0 1 0 1 0 0.50

2001-2002 Canadiens 12 685 6 6 0 35 0 3.06

2003-2004 Canadiens 4 270 1 3 0 11 0 2.44

NHL Totals 21 1,244 8 11 0 54 0 2.60

The first 2 years can be discounted. But if you want to count them, it's to my advantage: 2 great years.

When he really got a run going, 2001-2002 - MVP.

2003-2004, 'fans' attack him again, with a GAA of 2.44 in 4 games.

[jl.roberts]

That's what I'm trying to say. He'll go out and make an incredible save, something that'll pop your eyes out, and then he comes back the next shift and it seems like he's a totally different goalie.

I mean, I'm sure he's capable of stoning a guy like Bure on a breakaway, however the downside is three shots later he could very well let in a Stu Grimson slapshot from the redline.

I never know with Theo. Will he be there? Will he be able to accept the blame for a bad goal for once? Is he capable of zoning out everything and really being there for those little plays that make a difference?

For sure he's played some good -- no, great -- games for us in the past, but that was then. He's paid to be prime time and he's got to deliver. That's the bottom line.

The guys work their asses off, and he's not doing it for them. Yet Kovalev can score three goals any given night it seems and if Theo plays like this it's not going to mean a thing, because we never know what type of play we'll get out of #60 from minute to minute.

[puck7x]

Originally posted by Ribeiro

Look at his playoffs stats.  It's absolutely ridiculous that 2 sports writers would say something like, "He's only had a few good games in he playoffs", when he has had far more good ones than bad.

1996-1997 Canadiens  2 167 1 1 0 7 0 2.51  

1997-1998 Canadiens  3 119 0 1 0 1 0 0.50  

2001-2002 Canadiens  12 685 6 6 0 35 0 3.06  

2003-2004 Canadiens  4 270 1 3 0 11 0 2.44  

 

NHL Totals 21 1,244 8 11 0 54 0 2.60  

The first 2 years can be discounted.  But if you want to count them, it's to my advantage: 2 great years.

When he really got a run going, 2001-2002 - MVP.

2003-2004, 'fans' attack him again, with a GAA of 2.44 in 4 games.

Stats do not tell the whole story, not even close. Its all about making the timely saves, the game savers, and not allowing any weak goals. Theodore has let in a number of weak-questionable goals in this bruins series this year, and its unacceptable...

Lets put it this way, if Theodore had a 3.20 GAA this year but didnt let in any weak goals, and the goals were a result of the team hanging him out to try, then I'd say he was playing great.

[Ribeiro]

No, you seem to not understand.

Theodore has broken his ass for this team for over 2 years. And they seem to be ruining it for him.

He's breaking his ass right now, but people are blaming him for the losses when it's clearly the defense's fault.

Who ran into Kovalev and lost the puck yesterday after trying to recover it? The Defense.

A breakaway was given up, where was the defense?

To quote Bill Clemet:

"When a goalie gives up a breakaway goal, you can blame everyone but the goalie."

[jl.roberts]

Look, it's all about being clutch. Has Theo worked his butt off? Who knows, we don't know Jose Theodore.

He obviously loves the team and is doing, I'm sure, all that he can but right now it's not good enough and as is the same with most fans I'm just curious to see how the guy sitting behind him would do in this situation.

By all means, I support Theodore because he is a good goalie and I want to see him play well, but right now it's all about the team and if there is a guy not pulling his weight it's him.

He has made big saves, we've seen brilliance from Theo, but we've seen pure crap, too. Think of every goal scored against us, and I'm going off the top of my head, but I'd say not many were solid goals.

If we really are relying on the goaltender as you say, than we need to be relying on someone that's, well, reliable.

[sabumnimhabs]

No one is questioning Jose about the breakaway goal!!

Its all the other crap he's doing, its all the little screw ups that a small NHL butterfly goalie cannot afford to make. He is making them and no one is wanting to blame them b/c you want to live in the past.

Well I have a little something for you to think about: TIME-SPACE ideology. It means that the place is the same, but the time must be different, so the place must also be slightly different to avoid a confrontation with yourself or other generations.

Right now you are about ready to snap as you don't see where I am going with quantum physics. Theo did great two years ago, but a lot has changed and his past abilities cannot be taken into consideration for our immediate purposes.

I don't think Jose is to hold the full blame, I personally think that Kovy holds the majority of it, and not just for the OT winner, but his other greedy selfish crap that doesn't belong on the ice.

A change needs to be made and I feel Kovy and Theo should sit, but that would cause too much of an uproar to sit Kovy who has scored 3 goals for us, but people don't see and understand that many of the odd man rushes were created from Kovy's inability to see anyone on the ice other than himself!!! Watch the replays, the turnovers are KOvy's fault. He has done so much more harm than good and Theo is taking a lot of the blame. They are both to blame and I feel that its best if both sit, but realistically one of them should sit. Theo has potential, but realize he isn't Roy and he never will be!!! We need to cut him slack when needed but not be scared to bench him when needed either.

[Ribeiro]

By all means, I support Theodore because he is a good goalie and I want to see him play well, but right now it's all about the team and if there is a guy not pulling his weight it's him.  

No, I would say the Defense and Powerplay isn't pulling the weight.

No one is questioning Jose about the breakaway goal!!

Yes they are.

I'm going off the top of my head, but I'd say not many were solid goals.  

The one tied in the 3rd was hardly Theodore's fault. He was screened by 2 players in front of him, and Markov was losing the battle. It looked as if it was redirected and it barely crossed the line.

If you want to see bad playoff goals let in by a bad goalie, watch Cloutier who has Jovanoski, Salo and Ohlund in front of him.

If we really are relying on the goaltender as you say, than we need to be relying on someone that's, well, reliable.  

Garon in the playoffs is far from reliable.

It's so easy for the everyday fan to jump on the Goaltender. The first thing they think of. There is a reason why Julien won't switch to Garon, because he isn' the regular, everyday fan.

Just look at the defense. It's absolutely pathetic. How can Theodore bail the team out when the Defense is average at their best?

Brodeur has some of the best Defensemen in front of him. It's ridiculous.

[Edited on 2004/4/15 by Ribeiro]

[ricucity]

Originally posted by Ribeiro

No, you seem to not understand.

Theodore has broken his ass for this team for over 2 years.  And they seem to be ruining it for him.  

He's breaking his ass right now, but people are blaming him for the losses when it's clearly the defense's fault.

Who ran into Kovalev and lost the puck yesterday after trying to recover it?  The Defense.

A breakaway was given up, where was the defense?

To quote Bill Clemet:

"When a goalie gives up a breakaway goal, you can blame everyone but the goalie."

You are missing the whole point. I don't think anyone said he was to blame for that goal. However, most goals he is to blame. And it is not about how he has performed in the past, it is about what he can do now.

Remember Trevor Kidd? He was once a highly touted goalie and was a starter in Florida and Carolina. Now he is pretty much 3rd string in Toronto. Should Toronto start him because he USED to be good? No.

I am not saying Theo isn't good. I am saying he isn't playing well, and that is when the alternative option must be utilized.

[ricucity]

Ribs, I find it great that you are debating JL here, but you have left my points completely untouched. If you want an even-handed debate, you must discredit all arguments.

[sabumnimhabs]

The tying goal was not exactly Theo's fault, but he should have had it if he followed the basics:

PADDLE DOWN SHAFT END FIRST!!!

Try that and see how much more ice you can cover!!!!

He was the last line and he forgot the basics and it went in.

All I keep thinking is, stick down, stick down!!!!

I am not questioning the breakaway goal, you can't. On breakaways the pressure is all on the goalie, but the tying goal I question!!!

[Guest Biff Malibu]

I can't believe this is even being discussed.

Go with the guy who got you there. Theodore, hands down.

You guys are too quick to blame. The Habs aren't the strongest team in the NHL you know.

[sakiqc]

The thread was a real interesting read with good argument.. Good job Ribeiro defending your view.. and roberts with the other side.

But the Time and Space message by Salumni was.. weird, yeah, but so interesting and fun. Great post Salumni.

My opinion on this subject is also crystal clear. Like some have said in this thread, I can't even believe there's a question like that. I can't believe the question is on rds.ca. I can't believe that 80% of the (30 000)fans vote for Garon.

#1- In playoffs you can't switch goalies. You gotta stick with your #1

#2 - Theodore is good, but people expect him to be the best, the league's MVP.

#3 - Theodore is our best player. You can't put him on the bench after 1 or few bad games! That'd kill our chances! He is the heart of this team! We'll die with him! If we can't win with him.. that's too bad! But you can't noway you can't put him on the bench! This is the one we have.

Benching Theodore would be like benching Gretzky in the deciding shoot out breakaways for the Gold Medal game againts Czech Republic. YOU CAN'T DO THAT !