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The Final Cuts


mathieu30

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The plan is to not hurt either of their developments. If all they want is someone to backup Price once Huet goes, we can trade Halak after next season and develop a guy like Desjardins or Loverock (or even use Danis, but I doubt he's still around) to become a decent NHL back-up - or we could just sign a cheap UFA back-up. The goal is to not have to choose which of our players we want to develop and which ones we throw away - we want all our guys to do well and then trade away the victims of the numbers game for other guys we can use.

They have no choice. They cannot keep both at the NHL level. Teams have to make this choice all the time.

It is why Kipprusoff is with Calgary, Vokoun in Nashville, Hasek in Buffalo...etc etc

They do not need to make that type of decision with Halak right now. Why should they?

Halak has not proven he is ready for the NHL any more than Price has. But Price has been identified

as the Future of this franchise (deservedly so) and Halak needs to prove that HE is the future.

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Hasek was backup to Belfour and blossomed after getting traded. Vokoun never even got a chance in Montreal and blossomed after being picked up by Nashville. I think that's what people are scared of happing to Halak. Dont think it has much to do with his origins; except perhaps that foreign goalies seems to start with a bigger burden of proof than local kids.

I understand that, but why not compare Halak to Kipprusoff? And why don't Leaf fans compare Toskala to Hasek or Vokoun?

To each his own they are both probably factors, maybe it is because Vokoun was with Montreal and Toskala San Jose but I don't recall people comparing Trevor Kidd to Patrick Roy, but they compared every single kid from Quebec to him, including Brodeur who is a hybrid and plays nothing like him.

My point was either way it is simplistic thinking. Halak could be the next Vokoun, but he could also be the next Andre Racicot.

Edited by Wamsley01
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They have no choice. They cannot keep both at the NHL level. Teams have to make this choice all the time.

It is why Kipprusoff is with Calgary, Vokoun in Nashville, Hasek in Buffalo...etc etc

They do not need to make that type of decision with Halak right now. Why should they?

Halak has not proven he is ready for the NHL any more than Price has. But Price has been identified

as the Future of this franchise (deservedly so) and Halak needs to prove that HE is the future.

But I'm saying that they should trade Halak for something they can use rather than stunt his development so that he only becomes a back-up instead of a starter. At the very least let Price & Halak split time in a year or two and hope they both develop and we wind up with a Nabokov/Toskala combo or a Giguere/Bryzgalov. Then we trade Halak and let Price play 70 games a season until he's old and grey. What we don't want is to have to pick Price and let every other goalie in the system go to waste.

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But I'm saying that they should trade Halak for something they can use rather than stunt his development so that he only becomes a back-up instead of a starter. At the very least let Price & Halak split time in a year or two and hope they both develop and we wind up with a Nabokov/Toskala combo or a Giguere/Bryzgalov. Then we trade Halak and let Price play 70 games a season until he's old and grey. What we don't want is to have to pick Price and let every other goalie in the system go to waste.

What can they possibly get for Halak right now?

He is a kid who was in the ECHL 2 years ago and played 16 NHL games last season.

Garon was around for years and all we got was Bonk for him

(lucked out with Huet because LA would not have made the trade had they known Huet was better).

What they are doing is safe. If he forces them by repeating last seasons All-Star performance

then they will have to make a decision.

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What can they possibly get for Halak right now?

He is a kid who was in the ECHL 2 years ago and played 16 NHL games last season.

Garon was around for years and all we got was Bonk for him

(lucked out with Huet because LA would not have made the trade had they known Huet was better).

What they are doing is safe. If he forces them by repeating last seasons All-Star performance

then they will have to make a decision.

If he forces them by repeating last year's All-Star performance, his trade value will increase - I'd be very happy getting a player of Bonk's calibre back for him. Let's say Halak + Dandenault for #4 defenceman, preferably a compliment to Streit, + 3rd round pick. Our D would be set, we'd be treating Halak properly and we'd give Danis, Desjardins and Loverock chances to move up in the organization. We'd also be able to keep Huet and Price as are tandem for as long as we want. Things would be good.

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If he forces them by repeating last year's All-Star performance, his trade value will increase - I'd be very happy getting a player of Bonk's calibre back for him. Let's say Halak + Dandenault for #4 defenceman, preferably a compliment to Streit, + 3rd round pick. Our D would be set, we'd be treating Halak properly and we'd give Danis, Desjardins and Loverock chances to move up in the organization. We'd also be able to keep Huet and Price as are tandem for as long as we want. Things would be good.

But then you have to deal with fans if Halak does become an elite goaltender who complain that you gave away Halak for a #4 or 5 D-man. It is the safe move to do what they are doing right now. If he raises his level more they can move him for more or keep 2 stud goalies for the next 3-4 years. I am fine with them forcing him to show them they made a mistake.

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Problem with the keeping Huet around theory is that if Huet plays like he can this year, he's due for upwards of $5m a year. He's better than Toskala ($4m per), Gerber ($3.7m per), and Fernandez ($4.5m per). He's actually underpaid at his current salary of $2.875m if you look at the market.

Kipper is also a potential UFA goalie next summer, but Huet is 2nd on the list and after that it's a huge drop off, especially since Kolzig isn't going anywhere.

Kippper will likely get resigned. He wants Iginla money though.

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The reason why Habs got close to playoffs was obviously because of the goalie, that's what the habs have been doing the past years. The goalies are what make the Habs other then that if we had an average goalie habs would be screwed

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But then you have to deal with fans if Halak does become an elite goaltender who complain that you gave away Halak for a #4 or 5 D-man. It is the safe move to do what they are doing right now. If he raises his level more they can move him for more or keep 2 stud goalies for the next 3-4 years. I am fine with them forcing him to show them they made a mistake.

Why should Gainey care what the fans think? It's the same thing as with Theodore - if he's not going to be a superstar in Montreal then we might as well trade him to another team and hope that he becomes one (or doesn't, if you care about people using hindsight to criticize you) somewhere else. It is not between Price and Halak that they need to decide - it'll be between Halak and Huet after the season. Either they let Huet walk and go with the two young guys, or they re-sign Huet and trade Halak for something they can use. Keeping all 3 after next season would be a waste - Gainey himself said that he wants both Price and Halak not to be "dormant." Starting the 08-09 season in the AHL will be overkill, so he would have become dormant - the #4 defenceman would help us out more, and the NHL goalie will help out the other team more - both teams win; that is the sign of a good trade. That team will want to do more business with Mr. Gainey in the future.

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The reason why Habs got close to playoffs was obviously because of the goalie, that's what the habs have been doing the past years. The goalies are what make the Habs other then that if we had an average goalie habs would be screwed

I don't think that there are many teams that can get by with average goaltending. It is one of the most important positions on the team. We build from the tender out.

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Why should Gainey care what the fans think? It's the same thing as with Theodore - if he's not going to be a superstar in Montreal then we might as well trade him to another team and hope that he becomes one (or doesn't, if you care about people using hindsight to criticize you) somewhere else. It is not between Price and Halak that they need to decide - it'll be between Halak and Huet after the season. Either they let Huet walk and go with the two young guys, or they re-sign Huet and trade Halak for something they can use. Keeping all 3 after next season would be a waste - Gainey himself said that he wants both Price and Halak not to be "dormant." Starting the 08-09 season in the AHL will be overkill, so he would have become dormant - the #4 defenceman would help us out more, and the NHL goalie will help out the other team more - both teams win; that is the sign of a good trade. That team will want to do more business with Mr. Gainey in the future.

So you are endorsing trading a player who cannot help you right now for immediate help because you might slightly hinder his development? How much can another year in the AHL possibly hinder his development? He is 22 years old. If this kid is so far advanced that another year in the AHL will only hinder him Gainey is a bloody moron for not trading Huet right now. When did Halak become this good?

You do not trade assets for 25 cents on the dollar. If he reaches his potential and becomes a starting goaltender you have minimized your assets by trading a starting goalie for a 4th defenceman. You wait for the player to mature and then reap the rewards of his maturation. Then you get maximum value for your investment.

History is littered with bad trades like these. Luongo/Jokkinen for Parrish and Kvasha anyone. The Isles had just drafted Dipietro, they made up their mind he was their future and acquired some assets in order to assure Luongo's proper development IN FLORIDA??? That worked out real well, good for Mike Milbury, he acquired an asset that helped the Isles that year. I guess sending Luongo to the Lowell Lock Monsters would not have been a better decision.

What is the rush??? The Habs DO NOT need to trade Halak. At no point did I endorse keeping all 3 goalies. You make your decision (Huet or Halak) and go from there. But that decision has yet to be made.

Edited by Wamsley01
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Hasek was backup to Belfour and blossomed after getting traded. Vokoun never even got a chance in Montreal and blossomed after being picked up by Nashville. I think that's what people are scared of happing to Halak. Dont think it has much to do with his origins; except perhaps that foreign goalies seems to start with a bigger burden of proof than local kids.

Don't forget Kiprusoff in San Jose, and even to a lesser extent, Huet in L.A. The most recent one I'm curious about is Toivonen for St. Louis now.

As far as the "ace in the hole" theory someone was mentioning earlier... that could very well now be Halak.

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I'm talking about next season, not right now. By that time Halak will be NHL ready (in fact, he already is right now) but will be playing his 3rd straight season in the AHL, even after dominating there in his first season, playing well for his country in the World Championships and playing alright in a handful of NHL games. Keeping him there isn't going to boost his trade value - in fact, it'll actual lower it. The only way we can keep Halak is if he impresses the team enough this season so that they figure they can go with a Price/Halak tandem next season. Otherwise, we'll bring back Huet and be forced to trade Halak for something we can use because he cannot play another season in the AHL.

"If this kid is so far advanced that another year in the AHL will only hinder him Gainey is a bloody moron for not trading Huet right now. When did Halak become this good?"

Huet is around for insurance. Gainey doesn't trust a goalie duo of two rookies, next season, both goalies will be a bit more experienced and Gainey will have to decide whether or not he trusts them to get through the season together. I could see Gainey going with that combo and then adding a borderline NHLer experienced goalie for the farm, who could step in in case our inexperienced tandem fails.

Halak will improve in the minors this season but the season after he will learn nothing. He will not mature more and he will not bring us back a better return. So the decision will have to come next offseason: Huet or Halak.

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Why should Gainey care what the fans think? It's the same thing as with Theodore - if he's not going to be a superstar in Montreal then we might as well trade him to another team and hope that he becomes one (or doesn't, if you care about people using hindsight to criticize you) somewhere else. It is not between Price and Halak that they need to decide - it'll be between Halak and Huet after the season. Either they let Huet walk and go with the two young guys, or they re-sign Huet and trade Halak for something they can use. Keeping all 3 after next season would be a waste - Gainey himself said that he wants both Price and Halak not to be "dormant." Starting the 08-09 season in the AHL will be overkill, so he would have become dormant - the #4 defenceman would help us out more, and the NHL goalie will help out the other team more - both teams win; that is the sign of a good trade. That team will want to do more business with Mr. Gainey in the future.

starting Halak in the AHL this season doesn't necessarily mean he'll be starting there next season. It's easily a decision that can be made later this year. I'm in agreement with Wamsley that trading Halak now would be a mistake. I think we wait and see just how good he'll become.

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starting Halak in the AHL this season doesn't necessarily mean he'll be starting there next season. It's easily a decision that can be made later this year. I'm in agreement with Wamsley that trading Halak now would be a mistake. I think we wait and see just how good he'll become.

???

I'm not saying we should trade him now. I'm saying we'll have to make our decision next offseason and if we're going to keep him in the AHL NEXT season then we'd be better off trading him NEXT offseason.

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???

I'm not saying we should trade him now. I'm saying we'll have to make our decision next offseason and if we're going to keep him in the AHL NEXT season then we'd be better off trading him NEXT offseason.

Really? From the conversation I assumed you were talking about sending him down this season in regards to his development.

Not one comment I made was in regards to next season. I want Halak to go down and make the decision easy for Gainey by dominating the AHL. Then he trades Huet and away we go.

Edited by Wamsley01
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:P

"I really don't think Huet wants to play anywhere other than here. I could see him giving us a discount. I don't think Halak will benefit from playing that season in the AHL though. "

Of course, I'm talking about re-signing Huet - if we re-sign him next year it means Halak plays in the AHL next year and I think we'd be better off trading him than using him there.

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:P

"I really don't think Huet wants to play anywhere other than here. I could see him giving us a discount. I don't think Halak will benefit from playing that season in the AHL though. "

Of course, I'm talking about re-signing Huet - if we re-sign him next year it means Halak plays in the AHL next year and I think we'd be better off trading him than using him there.

I assumed you were talkng about this year the way you were responding to my argument.

When I was talking present tense. I am even trying to create arguments where they do not exist. I love this board :)

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Just as a note: The NHL teams do have scouting reports on AHL players and know where to shoot on young goalies. There are no players flying under the radar of scouts by playing in the "A", or any other pro or semi pro league. That is why teams have scouts.

:clap:

Of course they do, I'm not disagreeing with that. However it takes time to actually determine a goalies week spot. Price has played around 30 AHL games, and has let in what, 60+ goals. DO you really thing 30+ of these goals went in through say his 5 hole, so always shoot there? :lol:

Its a lot more complicated than that. Dont forget than any goalie can be handcuffed by a perfect shot, so that doesnt mean it a weakness if that always happen in the same location. It has to be dertermined on every goal if hat shot would have been a goal on any goalie.

Hahaha, black book on Roy, thats a good 1. It just happens that I've got the black book on Roy right here. It's a blank book. Roy didnt have any obvious weak spots, Thats why all Habs fan love him so much still to this day. Roy was incredible.

Funny you bring up Roy though. Just how many NHL games had he played prior to being thrown into the playoffs in 86? Umm, not many, nobody knew where to shoot. Hmm, well what aboot the other Cup winning rookie goalie Ken Dryden? Oh, hard to beleive, the same, played very few NHL games before being inserted and taking Habs to the Cup in his inaugural year.

Gee wiz, I must be crazy :rolleyes:

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:clap:

Of course they do, I'm not disagreeing with that. However it takes time to actually determine a goalies week spot. Price has played around 30 AHL games, and has let in what, 60+ goals. DO you really thing 30+ of these goals went in through say his 5 hole, so always shoot there? :lol:

Its a lot more complicated than that. Dont forget than any goalie can be handcuffed by a perfect shot, so that doesnt mean it a weakness if that always happen in the same location. It has to be dertermined on every goal if hat shot would have been a goal on any goalie.

Hahaha, black book on Roy, thats a good 1. It just happens that I've got the black book on Roy right here. It's a blank book. Roy didnt have any obvious weak spots, Thats why all Habs fan love him so much still to this day. Roy was incredible.

Funny you bring up Roy though. Just how many NHL games had he played prior to being thrown into the playoffs in 86? Umm, not many, nobody knew where to shoot. Hmm, well what aboot the other Cup winning rookie goalie Ken Dryden? Oh, hard to beleive, the same, played very few NHL games before being inserted and taking Habs to the Cup in his inaugural year.

Gee wiz, I must be crazy :rolleyes:

He played 47 in 1986. How many had Roy played when he won in 1993, 1996 and 2001? 1000? Roy did have a weak spot, when he was not 100% on, he tended to go down very early and was vulnerable up high. But that is every single butterfly goalie's weakness.

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Roy did have a weak spot, when he was not 100% on, he tended to go down very early and was vulnerable up high. But that is every single butterfly goalie's weakness.

You call that a weakness, I dont. Like I said, any perfect shot will go in on any goalie. When you on your knees, and a shot hits the top corner any goalie basically has no chance at stopping it. Thats a perfect shot. Huet didnt have a chance on Stillmans deflected shot, just like Luongo last year had 0 chance stopping the goal that knocked the Canucks out. When a player hits the top corner just barely missing the crossbar, the goalie is handcuffed and it makes even the best goalies look useless.

btw, Roy didnt play 47 regular season games in 86, he actually only played 27. Your conveniently counting his 20 playoff games Eh.

Seeing how Huet has yet to play 45 games in a season, how many games do you think the backup will get this year? A lot more than 27. Price will hit Roy's 1st year total way before the playoffs even start if kept in Montreal all year.

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