Gainey/Ferguson article

[Mr. Nasty]

Love it!

http://www.globesports.com/servlet/story/R...eafs-habs-gm-09

[Trizzak]

Gotta love Gainey about the Habs current fanbase: "They are not stuck [on the idea] there are six teams. They know there's 30 teams. They know anything can happen. They hope our team wins but it's not as dire if we lose."

Clearly he hasn't spent time on most Canadiens message boards.

[johnnyhasbeen]

Hope that Leaf lurker who was so obnoxious after the last match-up reads this! Maybe the kid will learn something. Great article. Thanks for the link.

[BTH]

Hehe great article.

[Trizzak]

Hope that Leaf lurker who was so obnoxious after the last match-up reads this! Maybe the kid will learn something. Great article. Thanks for the link.

He was banned.

I don't think Habsworld has a policy about other teams' fans signing up and posting here, in fact I think it would be kind of cool, but blatant trolling?

Kindly leave.

[johnnyhasbeen]

He was banned.

I don't think Habsworld has a policy about other teams' fans signing up and posting here, in fact I think it would be kind of cool, but blatant trolling?

Kindly leave.

That's harsh! The Leaf site hasn't even banned me, and you all know what an ass I am at the best of times! They do take down my posts quite regularly though....

[Peter Puck]

Okay I read the article in my morning paper. In the paper (although not online?) they have four (2 for the Habs and the other 2 for the Leafs) "NHL talent evaluators" score every trade and signing by the Habs and Leaf's since 2003. Gainey ends up with grades of 55.1% and 52.2%. Ferguson gets 42.9% and 39.3%.

My interest is in the scores these guys gave for some of the deals.

All scores are out of 5.

Neither guy really liked getting a 3rd rd pick for Zednik (2.5 and 1).

One guy hated claiming Traverse and then trading him for Mattieu Biron (2.5 and 1)

I can't believe the 2nd guy's score for signing Hamrlik (4 and 1)

nor for Kostopoulos (3 and 1).

But he really takes the cake on his rating of our signing Markov for 4 years (5 and 2).

Lumping all these deals together and taking an average makes the final scores rather pointless.

I mean the Traverse deal ends up carrying the same weight as the trade of Garon and a 3rd for Bonk and Huet.

Also using different evaluators for the 2 teams makes comparing scores even more pointless.

Edited November 10, 2007 by Peter Puck

[Dutch_Habs_Fan]

Thanks Nasty for this article, it was a nice read! Loved every word of it....and it feels nice to belong to this beautiful club!

Go Habs Go!

and now i will post this on a dutch hockey forum with a lot of Leaf fans

[MFT77]

Really, ferguson is a dumb f u ...., That's pretty much it.

[InsaneHABSfan]

hahahaha scout B rating Gainey must have been JFjr giving him a bunch of 1's for some excellent signings.

Great article as I did not know the Leaf record was similar o the habs record since 2003.

[Habstown]

wow very interesting articles loved it! Thanks!

Ferguson he a joke... lol

[Wamsley01]

Funny. I just had a lengthy argument with a Leaf fan over this subject about a month ago.

I put this up on my blog. It is long. But I thought it was relevant.

Optimist? Pessimist?

Anybody who knows me in any capacity knows that I am a pessimist. Prepare for the worst and adjust from there. Easy right? Well, if you want to live your life pissed off all the time and only enjoy it only when good things happen, Then I highly recommend this lifestyle.

Living in the land of God’s team (you know, the god who punishes his team with 40 year old cup droughts to cleanse the bandwagon fans) it is difficult to remain optimistic about my beloved Montreal Canadiens. Even in the 80’s when Montreal averaged 98 points a season, A Stanley Cup, A trip to the Finals and 2 Conference Finals I was marred with (insert shitty Leaf goalie here) is better than Patrick Roy discussions, and 1986 was a fluke proclomations. This became tolerable because the Canadiens were winning.

Enter the 90’s. And another Stanley Cup. Glorious times right? Yes and No. Once again I had to wade through a barrage of Bettman fixed the semi-finals, Gretzky high sticked Gilmour, we would have beat you if we made it, you were lucky that all the good teams were eliminated...etc. etc. Crazy rationalizations right? Nope, I actually still engage in these conversations to this day.

So let’s compare so far. 1980-1998

MONTREAL CANADIENS

Stanley Cups - 2

Points - 1753

Playoff appearances - 18

Years with more points than Toronto - 16

TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Stanley Cups - 0

Points - 1288

Playoff appearances - 10

Years with more points than Montreal - 2

Little did I know the Dark times were right around the corner. An 0-5 start in 1995 would lead to 10 years of ineptitude. Ronald Corey, Rejean Houle and Mario Tremblay were about to smack me off my bleu, blanc et rouge pedestal. Over the next 10 years I watched the Canadiens turn Patrick Roy, Kirk Muller, Vince Damphousse, John Leclair, Eric Desjardins and Matt Schneider into ZERO. A team that missed the playoffs once in 45 years was now struggling to make the playoffs on a yearly basis.

In Leafland the defection of Canadien legend Ken Dryden had begun a small renaissance among the Maple Leafs. Pat Quinn and a large budget allowed the Leafs to rattle off a 7 year run that resulted in 3 100 point seasons and 2 trips to the Conference Finals. The Leaf fans stole my bleu, blanc et rouge pedestal, painted it blue and white and turned their arrogance meter to 150. During this time my discussions with Leaf fans consisted of the following. Hey Chris Montreal Sucks.....yep. They do this year.

The constant harrasment lead me to continually play the trump card. 1967.

There is no response to 1967 (actually there is...it goes like this. You always talk about the past. The past is in the past. Fast forward to last summer. Ottawa fans are happy they made the Cup Finals, Leaf fans respond with “You have never defeated us in the Playoffs”. Funny, isn’t that in the past? Hipocrasy you say? Rationalization? In Toronto? Surely you jest)

The Dark Days. 1999-2007

MONTREAL CANADIENS

Stanley Cups - 0

Points - 668

Playoff appearances - 3

Years with more points than Toronto - 1

TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS

Stanley Cups - 0

Points - 769

Playoff appearances - 7

Years with more points than Montreal - 6

Which brings me to today and my optimism.

The Montreal Canadiens began a slow rebuild with the hiring of Andre Savard. First rounders Mike Komisarek, Christopher Higgins and Andrei Kostitsyn have finally begun to make an impact at the NHL level. Late round pick Tomas Plekanec has also began to become a force in the NHL. Jaroslav Halak dominated the AHL level last year and Maxim Lapierre is currently the leading scorer in the AHL after a disappointing demotion. (posted when Max was leading the league)

The rebuild was kicked in to higher gear with the return of Bob Gainey and the hiring of Trevor Timmins. Their first draft in 2004 yielded World Junior captain Kyle Chipchura, World Junior All-Star Alexei Emelin, speedster Mikail Grabovsky and veteran Swiss rearguard Mark Streit. Three of the four have already joined the Canadiens and the other one is a Russia/NHL agreement away from becoming a force on the Habs blueline.

The 2005 Draft was even more fruitful than 2004. Although the ping pong balls denied Sydney Crosby from joining his childhood idols, it allowed the Canadiens to acquire Carey Price. A surprise pick at the time considering Propecia pitchman Jose Theodore was still leaving tickets for Paris Hilton at the Montreal box office. Carey Price has gone on to win the World Junior Championship MVP, The WHL and CHL goalie of the year and lead the Hamilton Bulldogs to the AHL Championship. He is 20 years old. Guillame Latendresse also dropped to the Canadiens at pick 45 and the Habs picked up OHL sniper (131 points in 59 games) Sergei Kostitsyn with the 200th pick. This draft has already yielded 2 NHLers.

The 2006/07 Draft has also provided the farm with even more potential future Habs. Although David Fischer has been a disappointment at the University of Minnesota, forward Ben Maxwell and Ryan White both took turns fighting for the WHL scoring championship in 06/07 before Maxwell went down to a season ending injury. The Canadiens also unearthed another Russian gem in Pavel Valatenko who was arguably the best Russian player (behind Cheraponov) in the 2007 World Juniors. Top end prospects Ryan McDonagh and Max Pacciorety also joined the organization in 2007.

Is it my optimistic personality that has convinced myself of a bright future? Well considering The Hockey News had 9 Canadiens in their top 100 Prospect rankings Issue and http://www.hockeysfutures.com has the Canadiens listed as number 2 in their prospect rankings, probably not. Coincidently the Leafs had 2 in the top 100 and were ranked 25th. Don’t shoot the messenger.

With 10 players on the roster from the last 7 drafts and a handful banging on the door the Habs are building a solid foundation. With not many long term deals in place and close to 5 million in cap space this season the Canadiens are poised to make an impact very soon.

As for God’s team....I am concerned with them in one capacity right now. Stay away from John Tavares!! So when I am happy they win, it is genuine. When they lose, my happiness is also genuine. Great isn’t it.

The Leafs are stuck in no mans land, a depleted farm system, an aging team and a GM who has been told by management in order to keep his job he must make the playoffs. GO BLUE!! The perfect storm for mediocrity. Just good enough to compete, not good enough to win the Cup. The Blue and white paint is quickly fading from the pedestal and even though Leaf fans are already hurtling insults and organizing armies it will eventually return to it’s rightful place.

While the Leafs have been trading youth (Brad Boyes, Tuuka Raask) and draft picks to remain in the playoff hunt, the foundation has begun to gather mold and rot. They have 4 1st rounders from the last 10 years that still remain with the organization, and only 2 legitimate NHL prospects (Pogge/Tlusty) with the Marlies.

All the hot air, posturing and conjecture will not return the blond folicles to Mats Sundin’s 37 year old head. The longer the rebuild is put on hold, the longer the rot destroys the foundation. You cannot win the Stanley Cup without major contributions from within. Go check the archives. You will not find one Champion that succeeded with Free Agency and trades alone.

I judge every season in one way.

Montreal wins the Cup - GREAT SEASON

Toronto does not win the Cup - GOOD SEASON

Toronto wins the Cup - BAD SEASON

34 years old and no Bad seasons. Won’t John Tavares look great wearing a Hamilton Predators jersey.

Edited November 11, 2007 by Wamsley01

[Wamsley01]

be kind

Edited November 11, 2007 by Wamsley01

[InsaneHABSfan]

be kind

Great post and very informative. Montreal's foundation is the youth which includes recent draft picks they really like. As a long time (Feeling old) habs fan, I will wait patiently and watch the younger players mature and bring Montreal back to the long runs in the playoffs.

[BTH]

Yep. The Habs are undeniably in a better position than the Leafs in both the short term and long term.

I think it's a bit of a misconception though that the Leafs have no youth at all. They have Steen, Stajan and Wellwood who cracked the line-up in 2005 as forwards. Tlusty (who I believe will be their next Sundin) is on the team to stay. They have plenty of youth on defence with Colaiacovo (a great player), Ian White, John Pohl and a couple of others whose names I can't remember becasue they are Leafs are not worthy of my full attention. They do have Pogge in net who is highly touted, yet overrated. Big boys Antropov and Ponikarovsky are still pretty young as well, as are the goalies.

They do have a good amount of young players but what I think their problem is is that Sundin will be gone any year now and they really have no one to replace him. Look at their team and system - once Sundin retires (or is traded) they just have no one else. If they want to win a Cup within the next decade, they're going to have to do it with Sundin. If they want to win a Cup with Sundin, they will have to trade all their youth for the amount of additional support he'd need to win a Cup. So in other words, it's a matter of patience and whether the organization has it. In a demanding market like Toronto, I really doubt they do.

[InsaneHABSfan]

Yep. The Habs are undeniably in a better position than the Leafs in both the short term and long term.

I think it's a bit of a misconception though that the Leafs have no youth at all. They have Steen, Stajan and Wellwood who cracked the line-up in 2005 as forwards. Tlusty (who I believe will be their next Sundin) is on the team to stay. They have plenty of youth on defence with Colaiacovo (a great player), Ian White, John Pohl and a couple of others whose names I can't remember becasue they are Leafs are not worthy of my full attention. They do have Pogge in net who is highly touted, yet overrated. Big boys Antropov and Ponikarovsky are still pretty young as well, as are the goalies.

They do have a good amount of young players but what I think their problem is is that Sundin will be gone any year now and they really have no one to replace him. Look at their team and system - once Sundin retires (or is traded) they just have no one else. If they want to win a Cup within the next decade, they're going to have to do it with Sundin. If they want to win a Cup with Sundin, they will have to trade all their youth for the amount of additional support he'd need to win a Cup. So in other words, it's a matter of patience and whether the organization has it. In a demanding market like Toronto, I really doubt they do.

When Sundin is gone, none of those young players will do squat and highly overrated.

Thats OK because the Toronto media thinks all these young guys are first line material, yet I do not see one of them replacing Montreals young players if they were offered to the Habs. Toronto's youth are fillers, nothing more.

On the BTH scale none of them are more than *** but closer to **

[Wamsley01]

Yep. The Habs are undeniably in a better position than the Leafs in both the short term and long term.

I think it's a bit of a misconception though that the Leafs have no youth at all. They have Steen, Stajan and Wellwood who cracked the line-up in 2005 as forwards. Tlusty (who I believe will be their next Sundin) is on the team to stay. They have plenty of youth on defence with Colaiacovo (a great player), Ian White, John Pohl and a couple of others whose names I can't remember becasue they are Leafs are not worthy of my full attention. They do have Pogge in net who is highly touted, yet overrated. Big boys Antropov and Ponikarovsky are still pretty young as well, as are the goalies.

They do have a good amount of young players but what I think their problem is is that Sundin will be gone any year now and they really have no one to replace him. Look at their team and system - once Sundin retires (or is traded) they just have no one else. If they want to win a Cup within the next decade, they're going to have to do it with Sundin. If they want to win a Cup with Sundin, they will have to trade all their youth for the amount of additional support he'd need to win a Cup. So in other words, it's a matter of patience and whether the organization has it. In a demanding market like Toronto, I really doubt they do.

Montreal has a plan. They are acquiring a ton of young cheap talent and do not have any players locked into long term deals that are breaking their back with terrible performances. They have a possible franchise goalie who has stepped into every level and has yet to falter and even though the Calder Cup is not a guarantee of future success it is a definite building block that has taught these kids the system that allows them to step in with familiarity in the NHL.

As far as the Leafs are concerned, I live in Toronto, watch 50-60 games per season and get barraged with Torontocentric covergae 24/7.

Like Avs fan stated the biggest concern as a Leaf fan is that how will that youth perform without Mats Sundin?

• Ponikoravsky is 27 and entering his 7th season and has a couple 20 goal years on his resume and a 45 point season, but the bulk of his success has come while playing with Mats Sundin. This guys has accomplished very little on his own accord. What are the expectations of a 27 year old who has yet to make the leap?

• Antropov is in his 8th season has been continually injury prone, is an average skater and has also enjoyed the bulk of his success on a line with Mats.

I have watched the media proclaim that he has finally arrived every year only to watch him disappear for 20 games. He once again started off strong but has a couple points in his last 10 games.

• Wellwood has proven that he can score at the NHL level but his lack of defensive zone awareness takes away from his effectiveness. He has also been injury prone.

• Tlusty? I really have no idea what has you projecting him as a potential Mats Sundin. He has never averaged over a point per game in North America and his game resembles Sundin's in no way. He has been invisible for the majority of his call-up and his 2 goals came on one shift with one bouncing in off his ass.

• John Pohl is 28 years old, has 17 career goals in 100 NHL games and had one hot streak last season but has essentially been invisible ever since.

• Coliacovo is now 25 years of age, has had numerous concussion problems, multiple knee problems and most likely will never realize his full potential.

There was a time where I thought this kid had a great future but he has averaged 40 games a season as a professional

• Ian White is an NHL d-man. Some nice offensive upside but is 5'10" and cannot handle anybody down low and will never get top minutes as a offensive defenseman because the Leafs have spent their brains out on McCabe, Kaberle and Kubina.

• Stajan has been with the Leafs for 4 seasons and has shown limited upside, a depth player who will fill out the 3rd or 4th line.

• Steen has the most potential out of all of these guys. Although I don't think he is as good as Higgins he reminds me of him. He has great offensive potential and has very strong 2 way potential. He has never relied on Sundin to produce but when placed with him has shown signs of being a possible offensive star.

• Pogge is extremely overrated. Nobody talks about Jeff Glass with the same respect as they do Pogge. They both led powerhouse Canadian teams to the World junior title, both won CHL goalie of the year and one is touted as a superstar and the other is forgotten. I wonder why? Could it be the Toronto media? Pogge was brutal last season in the AHL and even though the Marlies are undefeated this season it has been Clemmenson who has lead them to most of their wins. What does it say for an organization that has touted you as the potential goalie of the future, acquires Raycroft and Toskala in successive seasons, gave them both extensions and then feeds a career backup in Clemmenson 70% of the starts on the Marlies??

If Sundin leaves what does a team with a first line of Wellwood, Blake and Tucker accomplish? They are locked in to 40 Mil in salary for next season and they have 1 first rounder in their organization from the last 5 Drafts? If Tlusty and Pogge become misses then what is their future course of action?

If they are in 4th-5th in March what can they do to acquire the talent to take a run at the Cup? The cupboard is bare, they have no cap room, and nobody wants to take overpriced players off of their hands. And what happens if their mid 20s youth does make the leap? THey then have to pay these guys because they will be UFAs and it will erase the savings they made on Sundin leaving.

Anything can happen, but logic dictates that as long as they try to remain 12th-15th in the league they will eventually exhaust their resources and drop to the bottom of the standings. They have ZERO organizational plan, they are hoping to catch lightning in the bottle like Edmonton and get lucky and win a cup. That is essentially their plan. Look at JFJs moves in the years since the lockout. Lindros, Allison, Raycroft, O'Neill, Suglobov, Peca, Bell. Does that not look like a team hoping that one of these guys will surprise? Throw enough shit at the wall and something has to stick?

You cannot delay the inevitable forever. The foundation is rotting, the house may still be standing but the termites are not visible.

Edited November 11, 2007 by Wamsley01

[BTH]

That's essentially what I was saying - they have plenty of young players but none of them are frnahicse players and that they will be in big trouble once Sundin retires. When I say Tlusty will be the next Sundin, I mean that he will be the next star that they build around and praise for the next decade or so. He'll be their best player and though I don't think he'll ever be as good as Sundin, he'll be a big first line forward and be hyped up as a superstar. If Tlusty doesn't become a firstliner that team is screwed unless they go into complete rebuild and trade just about every vet except Kaberle.

[Wamsley01]

That's essentially what I was saying - they have plenty of young players but none of them are frnahicse players and that they will be in big trouble once Sundin retires. When I say Tlusty will be the next Sundin, I mean that he will be the next star that they build around and praise for the next decade or so. He'll be their best player and though I don't think he'll ever be as good as Sundin, he'll be a big first line forward and be hyped up as a superstar. If Tlusty doesn't become a firstliner that team is screwed unless they go into complete rebuild and trade just about every vet except Kaberle.

I always thought Sundin was overrated, but he has placed this team on his back the last 2-3 seasons. Without him this team would be nowhere near the playoffs. They really need to dump contracts and rebuild. JFJ says they are rebuilding on the fly yet trades away picks every year. That organization is a mess. I still wonder this season what will happen when Sundin slows down. It is unlikely that he finishes this seaosn with 110 pts considering that he has not broken 100 in 14 years. They have young players, but like you said no real impact players.

I have no problem with it at all

[JoeLassister]

I always thought Sundin was overrated, but he has placed this team on his back the last 2-3 seasons. Without him this team would be nowhere near the playoffs. They really need to dump contracts and rebuild. JFJ says they are rebuilding on the fly yet trades away picks every year. That organization is a mess. I still wonder this season what will happen when Sundin slows down. It is unlikely that he finishes this seaosn with 110 pts considering that he has not broken 100 in 14 years. They have young players, but like you said no real impact players.

I have no problem with it at all

Sundin is not overrated, he is underrated. Easily in the current top 10 NHLers, maybe top 7 if we don't count Dmen.

[Wamsley01]

Sundin is not overrated, he is underrated. Easily in the current top 10 NHLers, maybe top 7 if we don't count Dmen.

That is why I said I used to think he was overrated.

[JoeLassister]

That is why I said I used to think he was overrated.

I know.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The best thing about this article is that it's part of a small but discernable snowball of media enthusiasm over what the Canadiens have quietly put together over the last few years. Between this, Macguire's conversion, Mackenzie's praise, and the promising early record, attitudes are gradually being shifted about the Montreal Canadiens. You know what this means, don't you? If current trends continue, Montreal will cease to have a problem attracting UFAs.

Media chatter is important. I became convinced of this by the UFA behaviour this summer. Smyth didn't sign here because he wanted 'a winner' (Colorado, a talented team, but with a porous blue-line and questionable goaltending, also missed the playoffs last season - but years of success mean they have a 'rep'); Briere was quoted as saying he wanted a chance to win the Cup (so he signed with Philly, last-placed team, but with a 'rep' as a major mover). Hockey players have no better insight into other organizations than the average fan. The more positive coverage we receive as an up-and-coming, sky's-the-limit franchise, the more players will clamour to don the CH. Keep it coming, media wretches!

Edited November 12, 2007 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Wamsley01]

The best thing about this article is that it's part of a small but discernable snowball of media enthusiasm over what the Canadiens have quietly put together over the last few years. Between this, Macguire's conversion, Mackenzie's praise, and the promising early record, attitudes are gradually being shifted about the Montreal Canadiens. You know what this means, don't you? If current trends continue, Montreal will cease to have a problem attracting UFAs.

Media chatter is important. I became convinced of this by the UFA behaviour this summer. Smyth didn't sign here because he wanted 'a winner' (Colorado, a talented team, but with a porous blue-line and questionable goaltending, also missed the playoffs last season - but years of success mean they have a 'rep'); Briere was quoted as saying he wanted a chance to win the Cup (so he signed with Philly, last-placed team, but with a 'rep' as a major mover). Hockey players have no better insight into other organizations than the average fan. The more positive coverage we receive as an up-and-coming, sky's-the-limit franchise, the more players will clamour to don the CH. Keep it coming, media wretches!

It is amazing how little players pay attention to what is going on around the league. You would figure that playing against these guys would give them better insight into how good they were then watching boobs like Healey and Kypreos.

[Habsfan]

Sundin is not overrated, he is underrated. Easily in the current top 10 NHLers, maybe top 7 if we don't count Dmen.

I agree! Sundin is a horse, and I would have loved to see him in a Habs jersey(i'm not saying that because I don'T like Saku, cause I do) But Sundin is superior to saku. He's big, he,s strong, he can skate, has boatloads of talent and like you said, he's been carrying the "Leaves" on his back for the past 3-4 seasons.

I wonder how good Ponikarovsky and Antropov will be when Sundin is no longer there??

Everyday, while I'm coming back home and stuck in traffic on the Champlain Bridge, I listen to the Team 990 here in Montreal. And I keep hearing Pierre McGuire rant and rave about two young Russian d-men. Alexei Emelin and Pavel Valentenko. How good are they, and how good can they become? Do they have a chance of becoming as good as Andrei Markov? or is McGuire wrong about these two?

ONe other thing I've noticed is that the Habs have tons of good young d-man prospects(O'Byrne, Côté, Emelin, Valentenko, Carle, Mcdonough, Subban). I hope that Bob will concentrate a little more on drafting powerforwards in the next draft, a bit like they did this year by drafting 7 defensemen(i think it was 7).

Our D should be good for the next decade or so, what the habs need now is size up front, and I hope they'll do as good of a job drafting power forwards as they have drafting defensemen!