Crawford ordered Bertuzzi to attack Moore

[Pierre the Great]

Come on ...

You've to do something like that only because the coach told you to do so (although Crawford surely never told him to end his career)?

What should the coach do if Bertuzzi isn't doing it? Suspend him? Trade him? Beat him?

Yea, you play for your coach but that doesn't mean that you've to do everything what you're told - as someone said, it's not war out there, you can't compare it.

The same with school - you're never told to do such crap.

/quote]

Yeah don't do the "crap" like I dunno i feel like not going to my geography final tomorrow in 9am. Oh wait if i don't show up i fail.

Its functionalist theory at its finest. top down, do what you're told don't question authority. In sports where its aggression tell the person they're the enemy, they must go down at all costs. You're going to go overboard unless your a Buddhist monk.

[bombTHEice]

But you're responsible for your actions, you can't say that the coach told you to do so.

Why shouldn't you question authority ... a player can question his coach (just ask Kovalev, though it should be kept inside the dressing room), especially when it comes down to such incidents like the Bertuzzi one.

[Pierre the Great]

i question authority 24/7 that's all i practically do.

But still I don't show up for this geography final in 4hrs, I'll fail the semseter.

So, while in hindsight its yeah he's responsible for his own actions. but that's looking back.

[smon]

I hate Moore so much he never even tried to come back from his injury.

He was at best a 4th liner and he sued for big time money.

The guy is a joke I hope he ends up bankrupt begging for money out front of GM place!

Wow, that is the most stupid thing I've heard anyone say about this whole incident. Not even Brian Burke would say something like that.

Do you actually think before you just type drivel like that? To wish that much ill will towards a person who is actually the victim in this instance?

The guy wore a neck brace for a year - I kinda doubt that he's in any shape to play even road hockey for more than an hour or so at a time. So how exactly do you expect to try to come back? Jump on the ice for the Avs wearing a neck brace?

And why do you care what he sued for, exactly? You should know that Bertuzzi's the one claiming that Crawford told him to do it, and he's using that as an excuse to try and force the Canucks to pay damages to Moore instead of him.

Just goes to show you that there's all kinds of people in this world, I guess.

[Pierre the Great]

Documents: Bertuzzi felt pressured to hit Moore

Under sworn testimony, Todd Bertuzzi said he felt pressured by his coach to retaliate against Colorado Avalanche player Steve Moore, but the Vancouver Canucks organization has dismissed the accusation.

"My last remembrance of what was said before I went out was him pointing at (Moore) on the board and saying that he must pay the price," Bertuzzi told Moore's lawyer, Tim Danson.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

[SAKS-AVENUE]

Wow, that is the most stupid thing I've heard anyone say about this whole incident. Not even Brian Burke would say something like that.

Do you actually think before you just type drivel like that? To wish that much ill will towards a person who is actually the victim in this instance?

The guy wore a neck brace for a year - I kinda doubt that he's in any shape to play even road hockey for more than an hour or so at a time. So how exactly do you expect to try to come back? Jump on the ice for the Avs wearing a neck brace?

And why do you care what he sued for, exactly? You should know that Bertuzzi's the one claiming that Crawford told him to do it, and he's using that as an excuse to try and force the Canucks to pay damages to Moore instead of him.

Just goes to show you that there's all kinds of people in this world, I guess.

I wouldn't knock JMMR's statement just yet. Not until this is over. I'm not picking sides but this world is full of people that after a car accident or things of the like play up their injuries because they have a team of greedy lawyers telling them to. Sometimes I wonder about this situation myself. Just like Bertuzzi passing the buck now onto Crawford.Bullshit..... If Crawford told you to jump of a bridge?......you see what I'm getting at. This is silly.

Now, I really don't know anything about Moores medical records but how bad was his neck? Something like Eric Cole or is he paralyzed. Why exactly is his career over? Or is it over until there is a settlement. I'm not leaning either way but something is really fishy about this whole thing and it's getting a little too much like "I'm suing Mcdonalds because I burnt myself with their hot coffee' for me

[jetsniper]

Now, I really don't know anything about Moores medical records but how bad was his neck?

Last I heard, he's still doing rehab and hasn't been cleared to return to the ice.

[Captain_Stealth]

Are you kidding me?

Wow.

:puke:

The hit on Naslund was clean. Moore did nothing to deserve what he got.

I won't completely agree on this fact only. The second part I agree though.

[SAKS-AVENUE]

Last I heard, he's still doing rehab and hasn't been cleared to return to the ice.

Of course not. There would be no case if he started playing. He'll be doing rehab as long as this case is open whether he's really messed up or not.

[Mils]

I won't completely agree on this fact only. The second part I agree though.

SAKS represents probably the best reasoned view here, in that we won't know 'til it's over. And JMMR's comment was unfathomable, but I already responded to that.

As far as Moore's condition: The best information I've been able to come up with was that he visited the Mayo Clinic in Cleveland (the experts), and they said that he is unable to play professional hockey. He's not still in a neck brace, but the damage is not healed to a point where he can return. (Sorry, no citation on that one, I heard that through several sources about a year ago, and I can't find any confirmation... so, I guess I can't prove it. But, I've been following this story as closely as possible from the start, being a lifelong -- since the Avs came to Denver -- Avs fan. No, I'm not 12, but the only NHL team I've been a huge fan of is the avalanche. haha. I'm 23 I swear.))

However, Stealthy, the hit on Naslund was clean.

Moore's shoulder and elbow were down. (Here's the link that shows the original hit. It's a Denver news outlet, (9news) but the hit appears at 1:02, and there are two angles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdLF8HbcAfM and here's the CBC angle from the National at 5:23: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxM7BxHgvVE...feature=related .) Naslund made a Lindros-Stevens mistake in putting his head down in the neutral zone and he paid for it (he was only out for a few games, 4-7 if I remember correctly). Moore's job was to be a grinder, to check, to hit, and to make plays like that one (See: Cody McCormick). Moore didn't do anything on that play except make a hard, open ice hit. You can look at the replays, Naslund put himself in a vulnerable position. Regardless of how you feel about Bertuzzi, Moore, Crawford, whoever, the hit was a clean, hard, open ice check.

If you look take a neutral look at the replay of just that hit, I think you'd agree that it was clean. Like I said, his shoulder and elbow were down, and in today's Chris Simon, Tie Domi NHL, that's exactly what any hockey fan is looking for in a hard hit (clean and hard). If you put your head down in the neutral zone, (I don't care if you're Markus Naslund or Ryan VanDenbussche) that's what you are risking.

My ultimate argument here is that Moore in no way deserved what he got. I believe that a big part of that is that the hit was clean. If he went Tie Domi on Scott Niedermayer or Marty McSorley on Donald Brashear, I'd have a different opinion, but he didn't. It was a clean hit, and Bertuzzi ended Moore's career (presumably, based on the info. available right now) in retribution. The punishment did NOT fit the crime in Moore's case or in Bertuzzi's.

Stealthy: You know I respect you (Biggest cliche in sports I know, but it fits here. HWL love!! haha. :-D ). If you think the Moore hit was dirty, please point it out. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing, I mean, who wouldn't hate a big hit on their big star. If somebody totalled Sakic like that, you know I'd be unhappy. Until I see otherwise though, I think the hit was clean.

As usual, I apologize for the wordy post. haha.

[House11]

i question authority 24/7 that's all i practically do.

But still I don't show up for this geography final in 4hrs, I'll fail the semseter.

So, while in hindsight its yeah he's responsible for his own actions. but that's looking back.

So PTG if your teacher came to you and said ... In order for you to pass my test and graduate, you have to shoot the Dean in chest ... Would you do it ? You'd have to right cause the teacher said so ... and it would be his fault not yours right ?

Burtuzzi had a choice .. he made the wrong one ... now he's paying the price for his mistake. Even if Crawford said go out and injure him .. Burtuzzi could have said no. Crawford did not threatin Bertuzzi with any action. Crawford did not say Todd if you don't injure moore i'll stab your wife.

Burtuzzi could have asked for a trade ... he could have when to the PA and filed a complaint .. he could have went to the league and filed a complaint. He didn't ... he made his choice.

[Fanpuck33]

However, Stealthy, the hit on Naslund was clean.

Maybe if you ignore the elbow. There is little doubt in my mind that Moore was trying to hurt Naslund with that hit. This is the exact type of play the NHL needs to get rid of: when a guy gets rid of the puck and an opponent sees him in a vulnerable position and nails him. Moore easily could have avoided such a hard collision when he clearly saw Naslund didn't have the puck any more. It was the same thing with the Neil hit on Drury last year, within the rules of the game, but a blatant disrespect for a fellow player, hitting him in a vulnerable state without the puck. Players no longer respect each other, and this is the biggest problem the NHL has in my opinion. Without respect, the dirty hits are never gonna stop.

[Captain_Stealth]

SAKS represents probably the best reasoned view here, in that we won't know 'til it's over. And JMMR's comment was unfathomable, but I already responded to that.

As far as Moore's condition: The best information I've been able to come up with was that he visited the Mayo Clinic in Cleveland (the experts), and they said that he is unable to play professional hockey. He's not still in a neck brace, but the damage is not healed to a point where he can return. (Sorry, no citation on that one, I heard that through several sources about a year ago, and I can't find any confirmation... so, I guess I can't prove it. But, I've been following this story as closely as possible from the start, being a lifelong -- since the Avs came to Denver -- Avs fan. No, I'm not 12, but the only NHL team I've been a huge fan of is the avalanche. haha. I'm 23 I swear.))

However, Stealthy, the hit on Naslund was clean.

Moore's shoulder and elbow were down. (Here's the link that shows the original hit. It's a Denver news outlet, (9news) but the hit appears at 1:02, and there are two angles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdLF8HbcAfM and here's the CBC angle from the National at 5:23: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxM7BxHgvVE...feature=related .) Naslund made a Lindros-Stevens mistake in putting his head down in the neutral zone and he paid for it (he was only out for a few games, 4-7 if I remember correctly). Moore's job was to be a grinder, to check, to hit, and to make plays like that one (See: Cody McCormick). Moore didn't do anything on that play except make a hard, open ice hit. You can look at the replays, Naslund put himself in a vulnerable position. Regardless of how you feel about Bertuzzi, Moore, Crawford, whoever, the hit was a clean, hard, open ice check.

If you look take a neutral look at the replay of just that hit, I think you'd agree that it was clean. Like I said, his shoulder and elbow were down, and in today's Chris Simon, Tie Domi NHL, that's exactly what any hockey fan is looking for in a hard hit (clean and hard). If you put your head down in the neutral zone, (I don't care if you're Markus Naslund or Ryan VanDenbussche) that's what you are risking.

My ultimate argument here is that Moore in no way deserved what he got. I believe that a big part of that is that the hit was clean. If he went Tie Domi on Scott Niedermayer or Marty McSorley on Donald Brashear, I'd have a different opinion, but he didn't. It was a clean hit, and Bertuzzi ended Moore's career (presumably, based on the info. available right now) in retribution. The punishment did NOT fit the crime in Moore's case or in Bertuzzi's.

Stealthy: You know I respect you (Biggest cliche in sports I know, but it fits here. HWL love!! haha. :-D ). If you think the Moore hit was dirty, please point it out. Maybe there's something I'm not seeing, I mean, who wouldn't hate a big hit on their big star. If somebody totalled Sakic like that, you know I'd be unhappy. Until I see otherwise though, I think the hit was clean.

As usual, I apologize for the wordy post. haha.

If you read my post I said I didn't "completely" agree with you. I've watched it over and over and it was borderline for me. Very close. Nonetheless it's a shot to the head to Vancouver's captain. I'll leave it at that because I'm sick of this topic now lol.

[johnnyhasbeen]

Yawn...no comment.

Ok

1

Bert was and wrong paid the price.

He didn't mean to kill him or break his neck.

It happened, he paid the price,

[sbhatt]

he paid the price

He hasn't paid nearly enough....but that should change after damages are awarded in the civil suit.

[Athlétique.Canadien]

Crawford might not have liability but he does have a hand in this "incident/attack". It's the way the game is so he's off the hook. IMO, over the years watching him I got the impression he is an angry coach. It's his body language and he's too riled up sometimes. He was a bit with the Avs. He's settled down over the years but I suspect he's still a hothead. As soon as I saw the play I immediately knew Crawford had a hand in it because other Canucks were after Moore earlier in the game. What team makes isolating a player of Moore's calibre their game plan? Isolating Crosby/Gretzky/Lemieux/Lecavalier etc makes sense. You shut down guys like Ovechkin. Teams don't try to beat the Habs by shutting down Steve Begin. It points to the coach and my instincts about it when it happened spoke of Crawford. That opinion is unchanged. I was not surprised at all.

Maybe I just hate him for Gretz not being on the shootout in Nagano.

[Fanpuck33]

He hasn't paid nearly enough....but that should change after damages are awarded in the civil suit.

To play devil's advocate here: Do you think Bertuzzi went in with the intention of ending the guy's career? Was he trying to break the guy's neck?

[sbhatt]

To play devil's advocate here: Do you think Bertuzzi went in with the intention of ending the guy's career? Was he trying to break the guy's neck?

Whether he intended to or not really doesn't matter from a legal standpoint in a civil suit. Had Bertuzzi not assaulted Moore, his neck would not have been broken. Had his neck not been broken, he would have been able to earn ($$whatever). Had his neck not been broken, he would not have suffered X amount of pain, entitling him to Y amount of money for physical and emotional pain.

Same thing as when you slam into someone when you're driving by accident, and you're in the wrong. You don't run a red intending to put a pedestrian up over the hood of your car, but it doesn't change the fact that you chose to do something stupid, causing someone injury...therefore you are responsible.

[BTH]

This incident is way overblown though. Worse things have happened and continue to happen (like Simon's most recent decision) in the NHL but they don't get nearly the amount of publicity that this one does. The reasons are simply because Bertuzzi is a far better player than anyone else who's ever gotten a lengthy suspension and, more importantly, because Moore won't let it go away. He should just get over it all and go on with his life. It's about time, no?

[jetsniper]

He should just get over it all and go on with his life. It's about time, no?

You make it sound so simple BTH. He didn't lose his job at McDonalds, he lost a lifelong dream he managed to fulfill that fellow Canadians can only imagine. It's almost 4 years later and he hasn't been cleared to return to the ice, he won't play hockey for the rest of his life. Thats not something you just get over quickly.

It's like if I lost the use of my right arm and wasn't able to write anymore. I'd never get over that. Ever.

[BTH]

Is bringing it up and suing over and over again really going to help? Like you just said, nothing he can ever do will ever make him return to the ice. He may as well just get over it all and stop trying to defame Bertuzzi.

[johnnyhasbeen]

When I say he paid the price, I was referring to his suspension. Yes he should be held responsible for Moore's lost wages. Oh, and Jason Williams should pay Montreal for the time Koivu was out. Oh, and how much does Samualson owe to Neeley? Need I continue?

Bertuzzi screwed up, big time, but his intent was never to break the guys neck, Ulf tried to end Cam's carreer and succeeded. How is that not more criminal? When we open the door to lawsuits for acts in a hockey game where do we draw the line? Every time someone is cut with a careless high stick? " I am scarred for life. Surely that is worth $100,000?" The weilder of the stick knew the danger when he carelessly raised his stick.

I knew I wanted to stay away from this but okay, here it is.

Edited December 21, 2007 by johnnyhasbeen

[Colin]

colin, you are person of authority, people tend to listen. Does a soldier not follow the orders of his or her general or troop commander? Orders are orders they come in all shapes and sizes and dogma. Not saying Bertuzzi is an innocent victim but the coach was the one that instilled the idea of relation that Moore should be punished.

Of course a person follows orders from a superior officer. You don't and people die. But comparing that to an NHL coach and a player is ludicrous. And even if Crawford took Bert aside and said he was going to bench the guy for 15 games unless he did something, Bert still had a choice. If he felt retribution was okay, then fine, by why do it in such a cowardly fashion? Get face to face and nail Moore, don't jump him from behind. Bert wasn't playing Crawford's assasin, he was being the Hand of Justice. They felt Nazzy got nailed, they wanted payback. Fine and dandy.

But again, I have to come back to this: orders are order - but this is HOCKEY and a player has to take ultimate responsibility for his actions. If Crawford told Bert to take a baseball like home run swing at Moore to try to decapitate him, would you still be agreeing with this? Bert had a CHOICE. He failed miserably. When it comes to retribution like that, orders are MOST DEFINITELY not orders.

Oh, and as for your subsequent post, if a teacher gives a deadline, no, you do NOT have to send it in. You can put it in late and take a deduction, or you can even *communicate* with the teacher and explain why you need to be late - hell, many will give extensions. Bert could very well have said no to Crawford, and if the coach decided to bench Bert, well I'm sure the league would not have looked favourably on that had Bert decided to open his mouth.

depending on the coaching style, you're playing for your team, your school or in the rare cases (and I've been in these) you play for the coach.

Yeah, but you still play within the bounds of REASON. It's a game.

[Colin]

doesn't matter, when someone tells you to hurt someone, you then go overboard to "make sure" the person is truly injured. I'm shocked nobody is picking up on what I'm saying. its like the confederacy of the dunces going on over here lately. lol oh got to add that book to my list.

That's just a plain ignorant comment from a kid, I'm sorry to say. And quite honestly, PTG, it sounds like a knee-jerk Republican reaction; just to use terms that you'll understand completely. While I do agree that, when someone injures a teammate, there's a tendency towards revenge or vigilante justice, do you actually think that sucker punching a person from behind in such a disgustingly cowardly manner is what the coach had in mind? Not only does that smack of disrespect to the player Crawford is asking to perform the action, but that's disrespecting the game itself, and Crawford, while an oddball, has always respected the game.

As for your 'confederacy of dunces' comment, while I don't usually respond to trite put-downs, your superior-than-thou monologues are getting tiresome. You might try to close your mouth and listen more often to those around you; there's a train of thought that says when you listen, you learn. Instead of imposing your opinion on others, Mr. Bush, you might try to understand the point of view of those around you. You have an opinion on this topic, and that's fine. But dropping to the level of name-calling and disrespect paints you as an immature kid who just wants to get his way.

You want to be a politician, or at least be successful in some kind of public forum? Listen more, talk less, and see the other side of the argument. You're an intelligent kid with a bright future - unless you keep up this nonsense.

[Colin]

Its functionalist theory at its finest. top down, do what you're told don't question authority. In sports where its aggression tell the person they're the enemy, they must go down at all costs. You're going to go overboard unless your a Buddhist monk.

Good grief, have you ever played sports? I've played at some very high levels and I've managed not to break anyone's neck yet. What you're saying here is that people can't control themselves. If that were true, we'd be cave men, women would be dragged by their hair to be impregnated, and we'd fight over who gets the most bison meat. I would recommend actually WATCHING the sports you comment on - while there are definitely players who can't control themselves (Simon, Fleury), there's usually a reason for it, and it has nothing to do with a coach telling them what to do. I've seen people get absolutely hammered completely illegally, and while they were pissed, they never tried to put anyone in the hospital.

98% of the time, if retaliation occurs, it will be patient, waiting for the right moment, and will be an absolutely and TOTALLY legal play. In hockey, that means playing against a player a few times until he has his head down with the puck, or is straying too close to the boards in an awkward position. Then the boom is lowered. Legally. Intent to injure? No. Intent to cause memory-inducing pain? For damn sure.

Aside from that, authority from a coach in every sport I've ever come in contact with is complete until it comes to hurting another player. Yes, absolutely in the heat of battle people get hurt, but purposeful retaliation orders from a coach with intent to injure? Any coach like that wouldn't last long enough in the sport.