The Mitchell Report

[Pierre the Great]

And how in the hell can you know that list is more accurate? What's your evidence?

Because Mitchell said so that his list wasn't everything and it sounded like he found names and didn't report them all the reports are people we already know about from the press in articles. Whatever Mitchell found he's not telling us.

like i can name a couple people just from the cardinals

Rolen

Edmonds

Carpenter

Pujols

Eckstein

Ankeil

Certain clubs are more of a drug culture then others. Oakland, St. Louis, New York to name a few.

[Fanpuck33]

How is Brady Anderson not on that list? Oh wait, Mitchell didn't do any investigating he just reported stuff we already knew.

Again, what did you expect? He had no power. He couldn't force anyone to speak with him. The whole investigation was a white wash to begin with. You can't blame Mitchell when he didn't have subpoena powers or anything like that.

Because Mitchell said so that his list wasn't everything and it sounded like he found names and didn't report them all the reports are people we already know about from the press in articles. Whatever Mitchell found he's not telling us.

like i can name a couple people just from the cardinals

Do you expect him to report names with no evidence?

[Zowpeb]

Because Mitchell said so that his list wasn't everything and it sounded like he found names and didn't report them all the reports are people we already know about from the press in articles. Whatever Mitchell found he's not telling us.

like i can name a couple people just from the cardinals

Rolen

Edmonds

Carpenter

Pujols

Eckstein

Ankeil

Certain clubs are more of a drug culture then others. Oakland, St. Louis, New York to name a few.

Eckstein??? Based on what? I've never heard his name in connection with anything and there is certainly no visible reason to think so...

I do believe Ankeil was mentioned wasn't he?

I could see the top 3 on your list simply because they're always injured and may have taken it to "help" rehab...

I'm still not convinced that Pujols takes anything...he's a big kid but there are power hitters of similar size who aren't suspected(see: Ortiz, Thomas, Delgado, etc).

[Quebecois]

How do you know those Clubs have drug cultures around them? You've hung out in their clubhouses? You've talked to players?

Can't believe you just posted David Eckstein's name

[kenadian]

Eckstein just signed with the Jays 1 yr deal 4.5 mil

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2007/12/13/jays_eckstein/

[Fanpuck33]

Eckstein just signed with the Jays 1 yr deal 4.5 mil

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2007/12/13/jays_eckstein/

Already reported in the Hot Stove thread.

[Pierre the Great]

How do you know those Clubs have drug cultures around them? You've hung out in their clubhouses? You've talked to players?

Can't believe you just posted David Eckstein's name

Tony LaRussa seems not to mind

McGwire

Pujols (suspicion)

Rolen (suspicion)

Edmonds (suspicion)

Vina

Bennett

NY

all this was from a new york based scout

Oakland

see LaRussa

McGwire

Giambi

Canseco

[Quebecois]

Tony LaRussa seems not to mind

McGwire

Pujols (suspicion)

Rolen (suspicion)

Edmonds (suspicion)

Vina

Bennett

NY

all this was from a new york based scout

Oakland

see LaRussa

McGwire

Giambi

Canseco

K wo you have 3 actual names for St. Louis, although McGwire was not implicated in the Mitchell report.

So might as well call out the Jays? Helluva a lot more Jays names than that.

Oakland i can see, Cust and Tejada can be added to that list.

[Pierre the Great]

McGwire doesn't need to be. Its a known fact.

LaRussa brings drugs with him, why do players want to play for him? (minus Rolen who's just a good ole boy from Indiana so he gets the "he's a good ole boy" attitude from the fans and media)?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=good+ole+boy

(for those who don't know the term)

Could it be that he (LaRussa) gives a blind eye to drug use?

[JoeLassister]

to : America

from : Santa Claus

MERRY CHRISTMAS

[kenadian]

Maybe they need to release the names of those NOT on drugs................it might be a shorter list

[jetsniper]

You know, for all the crap the NHL gets, atleast hockey doesn't have this kind of shit going on. I mean, I'm not overly surprised at anyone on the list except maybe for Clemens (who apparently started all the way back during his time with the Jays. And the Red Sox took crap for dealing him because his career was over. Please) but I would take the problems of the NHL over a league full of juicers. No one in America watches? Who cares, atleast we're watching real athletes.

Fanpuck, you scared the crap out of me with Tek though, that would've shocked the hell out of me, haha.

[Zowpeb]

McGwire doesn't need to be. Its a known fact.

LaRussa brings drugs with him, why do players want to play for him? (minus Rolen who's just a good ole boy from Indiana so he gets the "he's a good ole boy" attitude from the fans and media)?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=good+ole+boy

(for those who don't know the term)

Could it be that he (LaRussa) gives a blind eye to drug use?

This is something I don't agree with...McGwire was caught with a LEGAL drug that was not a banned substance. His stuff was available over the counter. So, if it was a legal substance and not banned by the league then it is no different then a protein shake or vitamins. You could make the same argument that vitamins are an enhancement product because they keep you healthy and make you stronger...you can only draw the line on illegal, banned, substances. When those products became/become considered such then you can force the issue. Until someone has legitimate proof you can not say McGwire did anything illegal or even cheated...

[lazy26]

You know, for all the crap the NHL gets, atleast hockey doesn't have this kind of shit going on. I mean, I'm not overly surprised at anyone on the list (who apparently started all the way back during his time with the Jays. And the Red Sox took crap for dealing him because his career was over. Please) but I would take the problems of the NHL over a league full of juicers. No one in America watches? Who cares, atleast we're watching real athletes.

Although I would argue that most baseball players are in better shape than I am, I still don't consider them to be *real* athletes. Hockey players are the complete package. There is nothing more grueling than a 7 game series.

[Zowpeb]

Although I would argue that most baseball players are in better shape than I am, I still don't consider them to be *real* athletes. Hockey players are the complete package. There is nothing more grueling than a 7 game series.

Guys...if you think NHL players aren't taking steroids and any other performancing enhancing drugs you're very naive.

I can almost 100% guarantee you it's as bad as baseball. Yeah, NHL players are better athletes...and so it should be even more advisable to be concerned with how many guys are juicing up. They are subjected to more injuries, are forced to be in better shape and have just as dubious a drug policy administered as the MLB. If the NHL had as much airplay as the MLB in the USA then you'd see this one getting blown up next.

Same goes for the NFL which has at least some semblance of a drug policy...

[markierung]

Guys...if you think NHL players aren't taking steroids and any other performancing enhancing drugs you're very naive.

I can almost 100% guarantee you it's as bad as baseball. Yeah, NHL players are better athletes...and so it should be even more advisable to be concerned with how many guys are juicing up. They are subjected to more injuries, are forced to be in better shape and have just as dubious a drug policy administered as the MLB. If the NHL had as much airplay as the MLB in the USA then you'd see this one getting blown up next.

Same goes for the NFL which has at least some semblance of a drug policy...

You're dead wrong pal. There is a huge reason why steroids are not a big problem in the NHL.

INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION.

Every year, hundreds of NHL players, usually top line guys, must compete in international tournaments (World championships, Olympics, World Cups, World Junior). There is drug testing at all of these events. And they happen annually at different times of the year and nobody ever tests positive.

Of course someone in the NHL is on steroids. But hese players must be 4th liners with no chance of making international teams and who probably don't have a major effect on the game.

[kenadian]

You're dead wrong pal. There is a huge reason why steroids are not a big problem in the NHL.

INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION.

Every year, hundreds of NHL players, usually top line guys, must compete in international tournaments (World championships, Olympics, World Cups, World Junior). There is drug testing at all of these events. And they happen annually at different times of the year and nobody ever tests positive.

Of course someone in the NHL is on steroids. But hese players must be 4th liners with no chance of making international teams and who probably don't have a major effect on the game.

The Leaf's come to mind.........................zing

[markierung]

The Leaf's come to mind.........................zing

lol, i like that one

Also, it's not just the players who go and play in international tournaments who are tested. Anyone is eligible to play for their country is tested. Remember Theodore when he tested positive for something after using Propecia? He didn't go play for Canada but was on the eligible players list

[smon]

Well, he said he used Propecia.

Supposedly there's quite a few on speed, Keith Jones mentioned that in his book I think

[Zowpeb]

You're dead wrong pal. There is a huge reason why steroids are not a big problem in the NHL.

INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION.

Every year, hundreds of NHL players, usually top line guys, must compete in international tournaments (World championships, Olympics, World Cups, World Junior). There is drug testing at all of these events. And they happen annually at different times of the year and nobody ever tests positive.

Of course someone in the NHL is on steroids. But hese players must be 4th liners with no chance of making international teams and who probably don't have a major effect on the game.

Nope. I'm not wrong. Is it as rampant as I think the MLB is...probably not...but it's probably far more wide spread then you appear to think.

Do you honestly think these guys can't get around the testing for international competitions?

BTW, they aren't all tested randomly.

Of course, you also alluded to the fact that only a select few play in international competitions...and those few, while typically the best of the best, are also only about 1/6th of the league at most.

[markierung]

Nope. I'm not wrong. Is it as rampant as I think the MLB is...probably not...but it's probably far more wide spread then you appear to think.

Do you honestly think these guys can't get around the testing for international competitions?

BTW, they aren't all tested randomly.

Of course, you also alluded to the fact that only a select few play in international competitions...and those few, while typically the best of the best, are also only about 1/6th of the league at most.

One sixth of the league???? Look at the Habs for example

Higgins Koivu S. Kostisyn

A. Kostisyn Plekanec Kovalev

Grabovski

Markov Komisarek

Streit Hamrlik

Huet

Halak

All these players have a realistic (and probable) chance of making their Olympic teams and the World Cup teams down the road. That's virutally half of our team and some prospects.

Then look at our youngest guys.

Also it's possible that other guys on our team can make national teams as the world championships tend to have a much lower quality of players due to the playoffs. I can assure you that over 1/6th of the league participate.

Also, players that play in international competition usually join their teams either in the middle of the year or the playoff push. (when the pressure is most intense and the likelyhood of taking steroids is very high)

Edited December 20, 2007 by markierung

[Zowpeb]

One sixth of the league???? Look at the Habs for example

Higgins Koivu S. Kostisyn

A. Kostisyn Plekanec Kovalev

Grabovski

Markov Komisarek

Streit Hamrlik

Huet

Halak

All these players have a realistic (and probable) chance of making their Olympic teams and the World Cup teams down the road. That's virutally half of our team and some prospects.

Then look at our youngest guys.

Also it's possible that other guys on our team can make national teams as the world championships tend to have a much lower quality of players due to the playoffs. I can assure you that over 1/6th of the league participate.

Also, players that play in international competition usually join their teams either in the middle of the year or the playoff push. (when the pressure is most intense and the likelyhood of taking steroids is very high)

Okay, so there are about what, 10 teams(?) in international competition...and 30 teams in the NHL.

Of those teams in international competition there are also a lot of players that are NOT in the NHL.

Enough oversees players that it's probably most of the "B" division and about 15% of the "A" division(likely none for Canada and the US and maybe 20% for Russia/Sweden/Finland/Czech/etc). Let's say that brings it down to about 6 teams worth of NHL players in the international competition. That's in the neighborhood of 1/6th, maybe it's 1/5th, anyways...Montreal is not the norm for how many players participate...there are teams that have only 1 or 2 guys that would go...

These guys would take steroids in cycles...not simply "in the middle of the year when the pressure is intense".

Why do so few athlete's test positive despite being virtual mutants? It's rarely because of their genetic disposition...more often then not it's due to performance enhancers...some legal, some not. The NHL testing policy is a joke. The Olympics and International is severe BUT there are always going to be ways around it and new versions of drugs that they don't know how to test for...and the major pro athlete's have the money to acquire the new badass drugs. Sorry, but I think it's very naive to think that the NHL is clean and the MLB isn't. There is FAR more reason for NHL players to be on something then MLB players...just by the nature of the sports. Same goes for the NFL...which at least has a better testing and enforcement policy then both the NHL and MLB. The NFL get's very few positive results but there is NO WAY that many of the athletic freaks in the NFL aren't taking something.

[JoeLassister]

The only NHLers I would suspect are : Sakic and Lidstrom. They are the only ones who get better as they get older...

No seriously, maybe some of the tough guys are on steroids, for example Chris Simon who looks like Chris Benoit.

I'm not saying these guys don't take some suspicious medication to help them playing 3 games a week, but I don't think it's steroids.

We rarely see guys taking 20 lbs and getting faster and stronger as we saw it in the MLB (McGwire, Bonds, Justice...).

[Zowpeb]

The only NHLers I would suspect are : Sakic and Lidstrom. They are the only ones who get better as they get older...

No seriously, maybe some of the tough guys are on steroids, for example Chris Simon who looks like Chris Benoit.

I'm not saying these guys don't take some suspicious medication to help them playing 3 games a week, but I don't think it's steroids.

We rarely see guys taking 20 lbs and getting faster and stronger as we saw it in the MLB (McGwire, Bonds, Justice...).

This is a common misconception though...guys don't always take steroids to get bigger and stronger.

Does Roger Clemens, Andy Petitte, Howie Clark, etc, etc all look like they are tanks? Of course not.

There are many performance enhancing drugs that guys take to stay healthier, longer. Or to rehab faster from injury. Or to improve their endurance. And more. Everyone thinks that Performance Enhancing Drugs are all about becoming a 240 lb meathead...they aren't always about that.

As for Sakic...he's been in the league since before steroids were rampant and so incredibly common amongst athletes. I don't think he's gotten better with age either...he's just maintained his ability for longer then most, he's always been scary good, even when the Nords were brutal...that type of longevity can also be an indicator of someone taking something. Which would be a real downer...I always liked Sakic...he's been a real class act so I'll assume he's clean.

[Fanpuck33]

The only NHLers I would suspect are : Sakic and Lidstrom. They are the only ones who get better as they get older...

Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when someone would think these guys are on 'roids. These guys have ALWAYS been great players and class individuals. If more NHLers had the class and dignity of these two guys, we wouldn't be seeing all these dirty hits and suspensions.