Koivu & Higgins need help!

[peihabs]

:hlogo: After watching the game last night and seeing Ryder bring nothing to the table again as has been the case game after game, please BOB go get Koivu & Higgins some help. I thing with the way we're playing and with Huet's goaltending we can really make some noise in the post season, but we need an impact winger to play with Koivu and Higgins. Watching Koivu discussing something with Ryder on the bench last night ( more then likely one of Ryder's many poison shifts) and seeing the frustration on Koivu's face and Ryder sitting there all smiles I think Koivu is fed up with him. Here is a list of players I would move to go find an impact winger for them. Of course Ryder, Dandenault, Halak, Grabovsky, Locke and a draft pick and maybe move Streit with them for a solid, rugged, mean right handed shot on D to take some of the weight of off Komisarek's shoulders when it comes to getting nasty. So could this group of players and a pick bring these 2 things back in a separate trade or 2 trades. Here are some possibilities of impact wingers I would love to see become a habs possibly one of these A. Frolov, M. Hossa, M. Cammalleri, T. Ruutu, E. Cole or N. Zherdev. If none of these could be gotten then some other cheaper choices would be J. P Dumont, N. Hagman or F. Sjostrom. As for the rugged D, possibilites: S. Weber, N. Boynton or P.Boucher. Anybody agree with these 2 things being needed #1 being a winger for Kovu & Higgins.

[kenadian]

I'm fed up with the continuing saga that Koviu needs help.......... maybe it's time for him to step up; good players PRODUCE with whoever is on their line PERIOD!

And if you look back there are literally TONS of similiar posts/threads.......

But it's a new week so it's time for another Help Koviu thread.......

[Dalhabs]

So u guys arent pleased with winning over boston 8-2 and beating the capitals 4-0? Yer like "it couldve been 11-2 and 7-0"

[Psycing]

So u guys arent pleased with winning over boston 8-2 and beating the capitals 4-0? Yer like "it couldve been 11-2 and 7-0"

Don't forget the comeback win over the Devils where Saku netted the game-tying goal!

[Habsfan]

LAst night Michel Bergeron suggested that the Habs should go out a pick up Keith Tkatchuk, so he could play with Koivu and Higgins. I kinda like the Idea, but I doubt it would be doable! He's gonna be making 4.5 million$ next year.

Here is a list of players I would move to go find an impact winger for them. Of course Ryder, Dandenault, Halak, Grabovsky, Locke and a draft pick and maybe move Streit

Sorry my friend, but you'd be lucky to get a bag of pucks for the players you mentionned, and you think you'd be able to trade them for these top rated NHL players???.

Here are some possibilities of impact wingers I would love to see become a habs possibly one of these A. Frolov, M. Hossa, M. Cammalleri, T. Ruutu, E. Cole or N. Zherdev.

These players you are willing to trade are a dime a dozen in the NHL, and you think that you'll be able to get a quality NHL'er for these guys? You can add as many players to the trade as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't worth much! This is not NHL2007 on your Playstation where you can make ridiculous trades...

To get Hossa out of Atlanta, the Habs would have to give up, something like Komisarek, A. Kostitsyn and a 1st round pick and a second round pick.

To get Eric Cole out of Carolina, the Habs would have to give up: Higgins, McDonagh, a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick.

To get N Zherdev out of Columbus, the Habs would have to give: S. Kostitysn, and (Yemelin or Valentanko or O'Byrne) and a 1st round pick.

Edited January 30, 2008 by Habsfan

[richer44]

Ryder is completely useless out there. He has no clue what to do with the puck. Shoot, pass, try to get by the defender. I'm sorry Ryder but your days as a habs are hopefully numbered.

You are way over valuing the price of the players you mentioned. I wouldn't even give up Higgins for Cole let alone what you're saying he's worth.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Keith Tkatchuk would be a perfect fit for that line.

I'm not sure what the asking price would be though.

[Wamsley01]

LAst night Michel Bergeron suggested that the Habs should go out a pick up Keith Tkatchuk, so he could play with Koivu and Higgins. I kinda like the Idea, but I doubt it would be doable! He's gonna be making 4.5 million$ next year.

Sorry my friend, but you'd be lucky to get a bag of pucks for the players you mentionned, and you think you'd be able to trade them for these top rated NHL players???.

These players you are willing to trade are a dime a dozen in the NHL, and you think that you'll be able to get a quality NHL'er for these guys? You can add as many players to the trade as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't worth much! This is not NHL2007 on your Playstation where you can make ridiculous trades...

To get Hossa out of Atlanta, the Habs would have to give up, something like Komisarek, A. Kostitsyn and a 1st round pick and a second round pick.

To get Eric Cole out of Carolina, the Habs would have to give up: Higgins, McDonagh, a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick.

To get N Zherdev out of Columbus, the Habs would have to give: S. Kostitysn, and (Yemelin or Valentanko or O'Byrne) and a 1st round pick.

You really believe that Hossa will net that at the trade deadline going into Unrestricted Free Agency? No chance.

No GM in their right mind would give up that type of return for 2 months of service.

If Waddell holds out for that type of package he will be fired. Because Hossa will be walking for nothing.

[TruthMonger]

To get Hossa out of Atlanta, the Habs would have to give up, something like Komisarek, A. Kostitsyn and a 1st round pick and a second round pick.

To get Eric Cole out of Carolina, the Habs would have to give up: Higgins, McDonagh, a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick.

To get N Zherdev out of Columbus, the Habs would have to give: S. Kostitysn, and (Yemelin or Valentanko or O'Byrne) and a 1st round pick.

These trade are just as ridiculous from the pespective of giving up too much. For Hossa, un upcoming unrestricted free-agent, no team would expect to receive a top-pairing defenceman, a 1st or 2nd line forward and two high draft picks. If he had three years left on his contract, then MAYBE they would have the balls to ask for that much.

Look at the Forsberg deal last year. That deal cost Nashville a 3rd line forward, a minor league defenceman, and 1st and 3rd round picks.

Ryan Smyth cost the Islanders a first round pick, a minor league centre, and a minor league winger (now playing with Edmonton).

The Habs got pending unrestriced free agent Alex Kovalev for Josef Balej.

Hossa is better than these guys but I doubt that he and his off-year would cost more as a rental than something equivalent to Chipchura, O'Byrne and a pick (not that I would necessarily make that deal). If you choose to use the Forberg deal as a model (since he was pretty healthy when he was traded), it would be more like Lapierre, O'Byrne and a 1st and 3rd.

[johnnyhasbeen]

I think Bob and Guy are hoping Lil Hooters grows into that spot or Ryder finds form. They have about 4 weeks to figure it out. If not, Smolinski is starting to look okay....

[Habsfan]

Look at the Forsberg deal last year. That deal cost Nashville a 3rd line forward, a minor league defenceman, and 1st and 3rd round picks.

Fine then, change Komisarek for O'byrne. It's starting to look alot like what Nashville paid for FOrsberg. Two high picks. An established d-man and a forward. That's what it would take. Look at the Tkachuk deal. I know Atlanta gave up shitload for him!

What do you think it'll take to get Sundin out of Toronto. You thnk they'll give him up for american league players? I doubt it!

Too many of you still overvalue the value of the Habs players on the market. A. Kostitsyn still hasn't proved anything yet in this league. He has potential, but he's never scored 40, 35 let alone 30 goals.

And please, let's not forget that the Habs won,t be the only team bidding for the rental players. when you have 3 or 4 teams bidding for a single player...the Price has a tendancy of going up!

AS for the Kovalev deal. That's simple. Nobody wante Kovalev. He had a horrible reputation as being lazy and the type of pLayer who only showed up once every 4 or 5 games. The Rangers were desperate to get rid of Him, and Bob was willing to take a chance.

Edited January 30, 2008 by Habsfan

[Chris]

Agreed. No reason to give up alot. I will bet the only move is a replacement for ryder. it won't be a top line player either, more like a Dumont who is ufa or only one year left on the deal. No reason to give up top picks or top prospects for a rental.

[KoZed]

Tkachoke can't play RW, so that's a no-go.

Dumont would be a good move. A rent-a-player that plugs an immediate hole and doesn't cost alot to acquire.

One factor people seems to forget is team chemistry. Habs are doing well since XMas because everyone has finally bought into the coaching staff's system. No point messing all that up by shuffling the roster.

[Wamsley01]

Fine then, change Komisarek for O'byrne. It's starting to look alot like what Nashville paid for FOrsberg. Two high picks. An established d-man and a forward. That's what it would take. Look at the Tkachuk deal. I know Atlanta gave up shitload for him!

What do you think it'll take to get Sundin out of Toronto. You thnk they'll give him up for american league players? I doubt it!

Too many of you still overvalue the value of the Habs players on the market. A. Kostitsyn still hasn't proved anything yet in this league. He has potential, but he's never scored 40, 35 let alone 30 goals.

And please, let's not forget that the Habs won,t be the only team bidding for the rental players. when you have 3 or 4 teams bidding for a single player...the Price has a tendancy of going up!

AS for the Kovalev deal. That's simple. Nobody wante Kovalev. He had a horrible reputation as being lazy and the type of pLayer who only showed up once every 4 or 5 games. The Rangers were desperate to get rid of Him, and Bob was willing to take a chance.

I think you underrate Andrei Kostitsyn. Out of all the deals that have taken place (Tkachuk, Smyth, Forsberg) no team has traded a 22 year old first line winger. Let alone one who has averaged over a point per game over the last 2 months. The Oilers received very little for Smyth.

This is the salary cap era, you do not trade a 2M a year player with 70 points for an 8M player with 90. I am not comparing AK46 to Hossa in ability, but he has that type of potential. Potential that had him listed as the best player in his draft year. A player who after a rough adjustment has scored numerous highlight real goals in the last 2 months.

You also cannot judge picks from last year to this year. The talent level in last years draft was judged weak and GMs were willing to cough them up a hell of a lot easier than this season in a strong draft.

Any GM who trades a first line player under the age of 23 for a 2 month rental is an idiot no matter how much of a bidding war takes place.

The funniest thing abut this is the Tkachuk deal was made by Waddell, and another overpayment was trading Coburn (a potential top 2 D-Man) for Zhitnik,

all for a first round destruction. So I don't exactly expect Waddel to have turned into Sam Pollack in the last 12 months.

[ddawwidd]

Are we so bad, that we have to desperately look for improvements? And I would be very cautious with dealing Ryder - he's had (so far) ONE totally unacceptable season. Yes, his play is a disaster right now, but look at this:

Take a player well after 30, who has a reputation o a slacker. Horrible season, injuries, no production. He has conflicts with everybody, coach and press included. Man, this one has a sign saying "TRADE ME" all over him. We perhaps would have, but his contract was too high. And we would give someone Alexei Kovalev. Congrats.

And you know what - this would make a lot more sense than dealing Ryder. You have to be very careful before you say that someone is over and done.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The way things look now, we should trade NONE of our top young players or prospects, especially not for guys with bloated contracts, or rental players. I don't understand why we would weaken our future for an extra win or two in the playoffs NOW; we are not *realistic* contenders for the Cup - certainly nothing close to what we can reasonably expect ourselves to be in the next 2-3 years - so why not hold on to those assets and make our future even brighter?

ONLY if you think you can sign a Hossa should you make that move. And even there, I'm not too sure we need a 'star' like that; our team is being built on chemistry and balanced attack. In a cap system stars can muck that up fast.

[BTH]

LAst night Michel Bergeron suggested that the Habs should go out a pick up Keith Tkatchuk, so he could play with Koivu and Higgins. I kinda like the Idea, but I doubt it would be doable! He's gonna be making 4.5 million$ next year.

Sorry my friend, but you'd be lucky to get a bag of pucks for the players you mentionned, and you think you'd be able to trade them for these top rated NHL players???.

These players you are willing to trade are a dime a dozen in the NHL, and you think that you'll be able to get a quality NHL'er for these guys? You can add as many players to the trade as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't worth much! This is not NHL2007 on your Playstation where you can make ridiculous trades...

To get Hossa out of Atlanta, the Habs would have to give up, something like Komisarek, A. Kostitsyn and a 1st round pick and a second round pick.

To get Eric Cole out of Carolina, the Habs would have to give up: Higgins, McDonagh, a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick.

To get N Zherdev out of Columbus, the Habs would have to give: S. Kostitysn, and (Yemelin or Valentanko or O'Byrne) and a 1st round pick.

You're not going to get a star player for Dandenault and all the guys he mentioned, but superstars don't cost as much as you say they do either. It's somewhere in the middle. Hossa is only an impending UFA - he would maybe cost something like Sergei Kostitsyn + 1st rounder (+ 2nd if you want, it doesn't change all that much). I don't think Zherdev would cost much more since this is his first good year and he has had problems with the management in Columbus. Come to think of it, Zherdev could be a good fit for us, if he continues to have a good season and doesn't cause any distractions. I wouldn't trade either of the Kosties though, so it would be maybe Ryder, Fischer + MTL 1st 08. I think Columbus would be very happy with that return, and that Gainey could do it, though it's not really his thing.

If I know Gainey, he trades a 4th rounder for a 3rd/4th line C who works hard and wins faceoffs and that's it.

[MAK]

Why don't Higgins and Koivu step it up?? it's always finding help for saku, I cant beleive how many free passes he gets from the media and fan. This guy hasn't shown any passion this year and we need that from him if we want to go far in the playoffs.

as for Higgins, his play as been sub-par lately. not that he's really bad, I just feel he could bring much more to the team. He really needs to step it up also.

if bob cant find us outside help, sergei kostitsyn could help. If guillaume played just a bit grittier he'd be there too.

Don't forget the comeback win over the Devils where Saku netted the game-tying goal!

so he scores one goal and all is forgiven ??

To get Eric Cole out of Carolina, the Habs would have to give up: Higgins, McDonagh, a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick.

OH well, I'm willing to wait for Pacioretty in 2 years, then.

One factor people seems to forget is team chemistry. Habs are doing well since XMas because everyone has finally bought into the coaching staff's system. No point messing all that up by shuffling the roster.

I dont think that replacing Ryder with another player will affect team chemistry that much.

other than on the koivu line, he doesnt have anywhere else to play.

[Wamsley01]

The way things look now, we should trade NONE of our top young players or prospects, especially not for guys with bloated contracts, or rental players. I don't understand why we would weaken our future for an extra win or two in the playoffs NOW; we are not *realistic* contenders for the Cup - certainly nothing close to what we can reasonably expect ourselves to be in the next 2-3 years - so why not hold on to those assets and make our future even brighter?

ONLY if you think you can sign a Hossa should you make that move. And even there, I'm not too sure we need a 'star' like that; our team is being built on chemistry and balanced attack. In a cap system stars can muck that up fast.

I only make that deal if it is a no brainer. I agree, the only way this team wins a cup is by surprise. It is not built to win this year.

Gainey will make a move when he thinks it will put the team over the top.

I would not trade AK46 straight up for Hossa, or Komisarek. What good did it do Atlanta? Nothing.

They have 2 superstars and zero playoff wins. Now one Superstar is leaving for money.

All the kids have been groomed in the system, brought in together, played together for years and most of them will remain loyal.

Despite what some believe a Cup can be won without an offensive Superstar. That is the way Gainey is constructing the team.

When the time is right a move will be made, but it certainly won't be by trading assets who have already proved they can make an impact in the NHL.

[brobin]

Ryder is struggling, but he is not hurting team chemistry from what I can see. Koivu and Higgins need to help Ryder get out of his slump, much like Gainey put the pressure on Kovalev to work with his linemates to make them better.

Koivu is definitely not playing up to his potential. It is not Ryder's fault since Koivu's best games have been with Ryder on the line (not saying that Ryder is helping, but he is not dragging Koivu down).

Ryder got many of his goals last year by getting a crisp pass from Koivu and shooting on the one timer. This year, he rarely gets a decent pass. Most of his attempts are him on his own. He is not that kind of player to go in around people. If anything, Koivu's poor passing this year has made Ryder's off year a terrible year. His confidence is not shattered.

I don't think we are going to get help from outside that will be any better then little #### or Lats stepping up. I also would not be surprised to see Ryder bounce right back next year. He is not the only top scorer to have a bad year (see Kovalev's career for an example close to home).

I think that line has to work together to be better, but they are running out of time. If Ryder can't get better in the next 5 games or so, then I would drop him down the depth chart again and go with youth. If Koivu can't get better (he is showing some signs of improvement) then we are screwed. We just don't have the depth at centre.

[JoeLassister]

LAst night Michel Bergeron suggested that the Habs should go out a pick up Keith Tkatchuk, so he could play with Koivu and Higgins. I kinda like the Idea, but I doubt it would be doable! He's gonna be making 4.5 million$ next year.

Sorry my friend, but you'd be lucky to get a bag of pucks for the players you mentionned, and you think you'd be able to trade them for these top rated NHL players???.

These players you are willing to trade are a dime a dozen in the NHL, and you think that you'll be able to get a quality NHL'er for these guys? You can add as many players to the trade as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that they aren't worth much! This is not NHL2007 on your Playstation where you can make ridiculous trades...

To get Hossa out of Atlanta, the Habs would have to give up, something like Komisarek, A. Kostitsyn and a 1st round pick and a second round pick.

To get Eric Cole out of Carolina, the Habs would have to give up: Higgins, McDonagh, a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick.

To get N Zherdev out of Columbus, the Habs would have to give: S. Kostitysn, and (Yemelin or Valentanko or O'Byrne) and a 1st round pick.

man you're crazy : we got Gorges + 1rst pick for RIVET !!! you overestimate each and every guy out there.

[Habsfan]

Ryder is struggling, but he is not hurting team chemistry from what I can see. Koivu and Higgins need to help Ryder get out of his slump, much like Gainey put the pressure on Kovalev to work with his linemates to make them better.

I disagree. I believe that Ryder is hurting this team, especially his linemates. Koivu and higgins have not played well over the past 2 months now. Higgins had a very good start to the season, but I think he has something like 4 goals in the last 20 games! And Saku is on pace for one of his worst seasons in the past decade. Imagine how much better this team could be if the Koivu line was producing like last year!?!?!

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Trading Ryder makes sense. He is an unlikely returning UFA and he is not scoring.

Replacing Ryder with a guy that can score a few goals just makes sense.

We really don't have to give up anything of big time value to the Habs to do this IMO.

[Habsfan]

man you're crazy : we got Gorges + 1rst pick for RIVET !!! you overestimate each and every guy out there.

I'm not the one overestimating the other players, you're the one OVerestimating some of the hasb players. Like I said, if the habs want to trade Ryder, grabovsky, locke, Ferland, Archer, Danis, halak, Côté, they won't get much in return!

[brobin]

I disagree. I believe that Ryder is hurting this team, especially his linemates. Koivu and higgins have not played well over the past 2 months now. Higgins had a very good start to the season, but I think he has something like 4 goals in the last 20 games! And Saku is on pace for one of his worst seasons in the past decade. Imagine how much better this team could be if the Koivu line was producing like last year!?!?!

Why is it up to Ryder to make Koivu productive? I thought it was the other way around.