Arguments about Koivu

[Psycing]

Hey don't diss Koivu...

He battled through cancer!

He's a GREAT leader!

His wingers suck, it's not his fault.

And don't forget he's done great things for the community.

People these days... geez.

Here's to having a pretty decent second line centre, eh!?

[sbhatt]

Here's to having a pretty decent second line centre, eh!?

I'm not sure about that...tonight he played more like an AHL'er...and not a good one either! :puke:

I was relieved to see Carbo bench him...it's long overdue. One more game like that, and he should join Ryder in the press box.

Edited February 6, 2008 by sbhatt

[CBHabs_fan]

I think both sides of the argument are correct. Saku hasnt had the benefit of A. Kosti and Kovalev on his line, and I watched every game...hence seen Higgins missed COUNTLESS setups.

Lately however, Koivu has been sluggish. He doesnt have his jump at all. I dont feel like his linemates though are pushing him like Plekanec's. Anyone that watches the games knows that Kovy and Kosti are playing better than Higgins and S.Kosti/Ryder/Kostopolous/Streit....you get my point.

While it is Koivu's job to lead that line, and he has not been good for 10-20 games, he really doesnt get a lot of help...never has. Anyone who can't see that is blind.

I dont think all of the "fanboys" (whatever that means) on this site are too proud to admit that he is the second line centre...that is obvious. It's just the bulls&*t criticism that he takes when we lose that provokes the defensive side of people. Just as there are people who will defend him when anyone criticizes him in the least (which is dumb), there are many who will use any excuse to bash him (also dumb).

So lets hope that our second line centre performs like he can down the stretch. I think he will. I also think all the Koivu bashers will merely shut up for a while, rather than praise or even compliment him. Then the first bad game he has.....back to the bashing. Maybe a deal for a sparkplug right winger will be the boost that line needs, and then everyone will shut up while we make a run at the cup.

[SAKS-AVENUE]

I've got Koivu's back now, I'll have his back when the line starts to produce again and I'll have his back when he hoists the cup up in Montreal.

Loyalty is where my heart is through thick and thin. Feast or famine. That's how I live. That's how I'll die.

Not like a bunch of band wagoners who jump on when pucks are going in the net and jump off when they are not.

Could you imagine if the dressing room was that unstable. Geez........

Work through it Saks you've got our support. Well mine anyway.

[CBHabs_fan]

Looking at the way Kovy plays now, don't you think I had some insight not "huffing and puffing" about him, uh?

So, in a nutshell it's all Koivu winger's fault

Tell me, are the Kostitsyns good enough for Koivu? I mean, just how good does Koivu's wingers needs to be so Koivu will play well?

I seem to recall earlier this season a journalist asking Carbo if Plekanec could make Kovalev better; Carbo turned the question around and said it's the veteran's job to make the young players better. Logically, if Koivu was as good a player as you make him to be, he could do just that and not the other way around.

1) The best Kostitsyn doesnt play with Koivu.

2) His wingers need to be good enough to pu the puck in the net, when he creates plays.

3) Do you not think Plekanec HAS made Kovalev better? Koivu could probably have "made the younger guys better" as well. It really just means complimenting their talent.....It was also Gainey who said that, and not Carbo, I believe.

[CBHabs_fan]

I've got Koivu's back now, I'll have his back when the line starts to produce again and I'll have his back when he hoists the cup up in Montreal.

Loyalty is where my heart is through thick and thin. Feast or famine. That's how I live. That's how I'll die.

Not like a bunch of band wagoners who jump on when pucks are going in the net and jump off when they are not.

Could you imagine if the dressing room was that unstable. Geez........

Work through it Saks you've got our support. Well mine anyway.

I hear you and agree with you (though maybe not in as dramatic of a fashion

I have been very disappointed in his play lately, and cant help to think about how good we would be if his line was going.

But I dont hop on here and post idiotic posts about how bad he sucks, etc, etc.

Obviously he DOESNT suck. Obviously he DOES care. Obviously he has lost a step as of late, but I'm not convinced that's a permanent thing. Lots of guys have lulls in their career and get revived (Selanne anyone?)

He is too talented a player to keep on playing like this, unless there is something seriously physically, or medically wrong.

[Habsfan]

Funny how the Koivu fan club never said anything about Koivu's line mates last year?! According to them, Ryder and higgins were good enough to play with Koivu last year. Why is it that they are no longer good enogh to Play with Saku this year? Sergei Kostitsyn seems to be playing well when he,s with Gui and Max, why isn't Saku benefiting from the young speedster?

In any case, Saku had another lousy game last night. Took another lazy hooking poenalty in the offensive zone( that's a BIG NO-NO!! He should know better!) In any case, after his penalty, I noticed Carbo benched him until the final face off of the game, which Saku lost.

Maybe Saku is tired? Maybe he can no longer play at this high a level in the NHL? Maybe Saku would benefit from getting a game off. Like tomorrow's game vs. a weaker opponent. If Saku sits out tomorrow's game, he'll be in better shape to play against the Senators on Saturday.

[Habsfan]

Obviously he DOESNT suck. Obviously he DOES care. Obviously he has lost a step as of late, but I'm not convinced that's a permanent thing. Lots of guys have lulls in their career and get revived (Selanne anyone?)

He is too talented a player to keep on playing like this, unless there is something seriously physically, or medically wrong.

I don't think we are saying that Saku sucks. What we are saying is that his game has fallen. It is very worrisome fro Habsfans to se their captains falter so often in a season. We all hope to see him bounce back, but I'm seriously starting to wonder if all the injuries, the Cancer, the fact that Saku is small and always wanted to play the game like a power forward, i'm starting to wonder if all these events haven'T caught up to Saku? Maybe all these events have finally slowed him down? He is 33 going on 34, which is usually the age at which players start to show signs of weakness!

Maybe Saku needs to accept the fact that he is no longer the 1st centre of this team. He needs to accept this! Once he will have accepted that he's now the 2nd centre of the Habs, maybe he'll relax a bit and things wil get better for him?

[CBHabs_fan]

I don't think we are saying that Saku sucks. What we are saying is that his game has fallen. It is very worrisome fro Habsfans to se their captains falter so often in a season. We all hope to see him bounce back, but I'm seriously starting to wonder if all the injuries, the Cancer, the fact that Saku is small and always wanted to play the game like a power forward, i'm starting to wonder if all these events haven'T caught up to Saku? Maybe all these events have finally slowed him down? He is 33 going on 34, which is usually the age at which players start to show signs of weakness!

Maybe Saku needs to accept the fact that he is no longer the 1st centre of this team. He needs to accept this! Once he will have accepted that he's now the 2nd centre of the Habs, maybe he'll relax a bit and things wil get better for him?

I'm pretty sure some people have typed exactly that "Koivu sucks", so it's not a stretch for me to point that out.

I agree this may all have caught up with him, but as I said, I'm not convinced it's permanent.

I think he has already accepted that he's the number 2 centre. He's not dumb or blind. But think it will be healthy for he and his linemates if he aspires to still be the number #1 centre. I keep hoping that the play of Pleks line will stir up the proud side of Koivu and Higgins and enocurage them to play better. A little internal competition is not a bad thing, in this case.

So while I agree that for him to accept it and relax could be beneficial, I'd rather see he and Higgins take it as a challenge and work harder to be #1.

[huzer]

The more things change, the more things stay the same. For quite a while the Habs have had merely 1 good scoring line. Last year, the best Habs line over the bulk of the season was the Koivu line, and everyone whined about secondary scoring. This year, it's the Plekanec line that's providing the primary scoring. Yes, I agree Koivu has not played well this year, nor have his linemates. And the past few years hasn't Koivu always seemed a step slower in late Jan/Feb. I think most can agree to that.

Koivu is currently on pace for about 60 pts. Not great, but not horrible. Everyone has always complained that the Habs needed someone to help Koivu, another point producing centre. Will, now Plex is doing a great job, and points wise, Koivu is producing at nearly the same clip as we're used to. Nearly. The biggest issue is that he's taking a lot more of the lazy penalties. He has more minutes now than he has in any previous professional season. Whether it's condition, illness, injury, whatever, that's something that needs to be addressed. If his body can't handle the workload, then Carbonneau needs to adjust how Koivu is used. I highly doubt Saku is just bored and going through the motions out there.

And by the way, I don't buy into the argument that adding a better winger will not elevate the play of his centre. Sure, maybe stick some schmuck with a top centre on any team and that player may produce more, but at the expense of what a top playmaker (not saying Koivu is one) could do with players that have more talent.

[brobin]

Koivu is definitely a step behind and blaming his wingers are not going to cut it any more. As per Kovalev last year, Koivu is the leader of that line and he needs to make the others better. Kovalev was told the same thing early this year by Gainey and he has responded. Kovalev is making Pleks look better then he would look with other wingers, because Kovalev knows that it is up to him.

Another issue I have with Koivu is that even if he can't contribute as much as we would like offensively, there is no excuse for taking bad penalties at bad times, nor is there an excuse his brutal give aways and bad decisions. He needs to simplify his game and not be a problem out there.

[JMMR]

New line for Koivu tomorrow.

Koivu back with Lats and S. Kost a line which Koivu produced 10 points in 10 games with.

[KoZed]

New line for Koivu tomorrow.

Koivu back with Lats and S. Kost a line which Koivu produced 10 points in 10 games with.

Leave it to two 20 yrs old to make Koivu better...

Joking aside, Lats & Saku always done well together. Higgins & Saku needed to be separated to get them out of their bad habits.

[SAKS-AVENUE]

New line for Koivu tomorrow.

Koivu back with Lats and S. Kost a line which Koivu produced 10 points in 10 games with.

Good news!!!!

When I look into my crystal ball this is what's coming up.

Ottawa is going to beat up on Florida pretty good.........

We are all going to be really bummed on Thursday because the Habs are going to be outplayed by the Leafs to a degree we won't feel comfortable with........but..............we will walk away with 2 pts thanks to Carey Price.........

Saturday will be like watching a play-off game in Febuary and our Captain will lead us into first place with a stellar game.

It gets blurry after that, but I think through the fog I see a city...........ummmm ya........Kingston......yes and a man is running through the streets

naked yelling SAKU! SAKU! SAKU! and he's holding a six pack of beer.........the cans are blue..........I can't see who it is though.

[KoZed]

Saturday will be like watching a play-off game in Febuary and our Captain will lead us into first place with a stellar game.

It gets blurry after that, but I think through the fog I see a city...........ummmm ya........Kingston......yes and a man is running through the streets

naked yelling SAKU! SAKU! SAKU! and he's holding a six pack of beer.........the cans are blue..........I can't see who it is though.

Who's your dealer? I want in the good stuff too... !

[JMMR]

Good news!!!!

When I look into my crystal ball this is what's coming up.

Ottawa is going to beat up on Florida pretty good.........

We are all going to be really bummed on Thursday because the Habs are going to be outplayed by the Leafs to a degree we won't feel comfortable with........but..............we will walk away with 2 pts thanks to Carey Price.........

Saturday will be like watching a play-off game in Febuary and our Captain will lead us into first place with a stellar game.

It gets blurry after that, but I think through the fog I see a city...........ummmm ya........Kingston......yes and a man is running through the streets

naked yelling SAKU! SAKU! SAKU! and he's holding a six pack of beer.........the cans are blue..........I can't see who it is though.

Hahaha I wish you could get the cans here but it is 500ml bottles only.

[Ecurb]

This same conversation took place in Toronto over and over about Sundin.

Give him a winger, it is not his fault. He can't do everything himself. So they signed Mogilny.

Mogilny scored 30+ goals, did Sundin's point totals rise dramatically? Nope.

Centers are like point guards in the NBA. A good centre makes his wingers better.

These are all fanboy excuses. Anybody who has watched Koivu this year knows he has not been the same.

But we have to watch the Koivu fan club rally together anytime somebody utters a discouraging word.

We have to watch the Huet fan club rally together anytime somebody utters a discouraging word.

If I criticize Koivu's play, I don't want to hear how he battled through cancer, I don't want to hear that he is a great leader,

I don't want to hear that his wingers suck, I don't want to hear that he is great for the community.

What do all those things have to do with him not moving his feet and taking 30 offensive zone penalties?

What do all those things have to do with him lacking energy?

What do all those things have to do with him not producing first line totals?

What do all those things have to do with his blown defensive zone coverages?

Call a spade a spade. He has not played well this year. WTF is the big deal? WE ALL WANT HIM TO PLAY BETTER!

Are we defending him so we can go get our little quote in 2 months when he scores a big goal and say I told you so?

Look at me, I am a bigger fan than you?

THe whole ######ing thing is ridiculous. He is producing like a second line centre which he now is.

I've always been a big Koivu fan, but I've never thought of him as an first line C.

I've always felt he was a fine 1B type of C and loved how he played the game.

Its true he is not playing as well this year as he was last year, he seems slower. Its kinda

of ironic how the same thing could be said of Kovalev last year.

If Higgins and Ryder had finished some of those great setups by Koivu, he could easily have

another 6+ points and we probably wouldn't be talking about how bad he is playing. Take

that into account and the fact he's now on the 2nd PP unit and we can see were some of his

points have gone to. Koivu is a playmaker, he's a fine setup man. If those he is setting up

can't finish is that his fault?

I'm sure many of those penalities Koivu has taken are out of frustration.

I'm also sure there are 29 other GM's in the league that would love to have him on

their team.

[ch_nl]

I see this as a last atempt before the trading deadline.

But how will the third line look like? Ryder, Higgins and Streit? Would it be possible to try Higgins at centre again? Or will Ryder be seated in the pressbox once more?

[Habsfan84]

I see this as a last atempt before the trading deadline.

But how will the third line look like? Ryder, Higgins and Streit? Would it be possible to try Higgins at centre again? Or will Ryder be seated in the pressbox once more?

I dont like the idea of messing with a wining formula. Ryder will sit most likely.

[smon]

Higgins is not a possibility at centre because he hasnt played there for several years...if faceoffs are a problem now, then it'll be even worse.

[tokyohabs]

RDS has Higgins with Lapierre and Dandy??? Ouch. How that's supposed to 'wake Higgins up' is utterly beyond me. Much rather see Streit and his playmaking in there, letting Higgins torpedo to the net, and Lapierre as the line's defensive check / instigator. I'd also love to see Higgins drop the gloves and beat the sh*te out of someone, maybe it will get something out of his system, get him that edge back: instinct, power, a flash of temper.

If that is the line, I'd give Higgins a couple of shifts at centre, just to see what it's like. Why not? Maybe being involved in face-offs will return some of that hunger, get him thinking less and getting his instincts going more. Lapierre has played wing before.

Hope the kids skate hard enough to let Koivu play a bit back, see the ice more, not have to crash the net and save his energy a bit for the all-important third period. Might be good for him, S. Kost as the free-wheeling wild card; Latendresse as the gate-crashing moose. With a couple of decent d-men who can play simple and get the puck to him, he can look up for a flying S. Kost; dump it towards a barreling Latendresse; or carry it in himself and set up.

In a strange way I hope Ryder plays as well. Maybe the Laffs slackness on D will open something up for him. But games against the Laffs are never easy for us - I don't expect to walk out with two easy points at all.

[BTH]

Both Higgins and Koivu will be surrounded by tough players who give it their all every shift. Higgins and Koivu are also known for doing that but neither of them have really been a factor lately so GC is hoping their energetic linemates (aside for Gui, but he creates space) will wake them up.

[KoZed]

Carbo had a nice quote today...

"He's 1 amongst the 20 players. I dont know if he has a special status or something, but me I have to ask him the same thing as the all the other ".

[SAKS-AVENUE]

Koivu is definitely a step behind and blaming his wingers are not going to cut it any more. As per Kovalev last year, Koivu is the leader of that line and he needs to make the others better. Kovalev was told the same thing early this year by Gainey and he has responded. Kovalev is making Pleks look better then he would look with other wingers, because Kovalev knows that it is up to him.

Another issue I have with Koivu is that even if he can't contribute as much as we would like offensively, there is no excuse for taking bad penalties at bad times, nor is there an excuse his brutal give aways and bad decisions. He needs to simplify his game and not be a problem out there.

Just an observation while looking at TSN Gameday stats. Koivu is considered HOT with a big H with 6 pts in his last seven games.

I'm not trying to start an argument. I like everyone else know he's had a flat tire lately.........but he's still producing. His linemates didn't even make the COLD list. They are frozen.

It does prove a point that he is still driving at a good rate, and blame should be put on his line-mates more so then not.The penalty thing I agree, he should really get a grip on his frustrations and that problem will go away. Some of the calls though have been questionable I must say.

Keep it up Koivu!!!!!!!!!!

Shut your critics up BABY!!!!!!

WoooooooooHoooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

[Wamsley01]

Just an observation while looking at TSN Gameday stats. Koivu is considered HOT with a big H with 6 pts in his last seven games.

I'm not trying to start an argument. I like everyone else know he's had a flat tire lately.........but he's still producing. His linemates didn't even make the COLD list. They are frozen.

It does prove a point that he is still driving at a good rate, and blame should be put on his line-mates more so then not.The penalty thing I agree, he should really get a grip on his frustrations and that problem will go away. Some of the calls though have been questionable I must say.

Keep it up Koivu!!!!!!!!!!

Shut your critics up BABY!!!!!!

WoooooooooHoooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

Stats can say what you want them to say. He is -11 in his last 12 games as well. So take that for what it is worth.

We all know he can play better, we all hope he will play better because if he raises the level of the second line

then this team is a hell of a lot more dangerous.