Poaching Season.................

[SAKS-AVENUE]

This might be an interesting discussion to get our minds off the Play-off run our boys have pleasantly surprised us with this year.

I'm well aware that Gainey likes to conduct his business with clean, fair and brutal honesty. I can't say that for others. The way that Waddell hung on until the last minute and put everyone against each other over the Hossa trade was sneaky. Kevin Lowe was out to play dirty last summer and didn't care about stepping on anyone that wasn't a family member. Even the rumor out of Toronto that the Leafs might try and poach Bob Gainey (won't happen) but frightening none the less. How about the way the Leafs tried to unsuccessfully grab Travares rights earlier in the season........It's getting dirty out there. Which brings me to my point.

Gainey can and does negotiate during the season, but rarely so. With GM's overpaying at trade deadlines for rentals, Season long trade droughts,except the deadline, and overpaying Unrestricted free agents in the summer create a slim pickins player buffet for the future New NHL. Teams that are hard up will start to act foolishly.

So, what happens if "BIG TlTS" for some crazy reason entertains a Kevin Lowe type situation. After a great season, good solid play-off run, Gainey gets to work and offers a three year deal for 2 million a season.(judging by Higgins and Komi deals). With so many inflated salaries out there TlTS agent thinks it would be smart to hold out and negotiate a little longer. While this is going on Kevin Lowe swoops in and offers a five year deal at 4 million a season.

What does Gainey do?

[sbhatt]

This might be an interesting discussion to get our minds off the Play-off run our boys have pleasantly surprised us with this year.

I'm well aware that Gainey likes to conduct his business with clean, fair and brutal honesty. I can't say that for others. The way that Waddell hung on until the last minute and put everyone against each other over the Hossa trade was sneaky. Kevin Lowe was out to play dirty last summer and didn't care about stepping on anyone that wasn't a family member. Even the rumor out of Toronto that the Leafs might try and poach Bob Gainey (won't happen) but frightening none the less. How about the way the Leafs tried to unsuccessfully grab Travares rights earlier in the season........It's getting dirty out there. Which brings me to my point.

Gainey can and does negotiate during the season, but rarely so. With GM's overpaying at trade deadlines for rentals, Season long trade droughts,except the deadline, and overpaying Unrestricted free agents in the summer create a slim pickins player buffet for the future New NHL. Teams that are hard up will start to act foolishly.

So, what happens if "BIG TlTS" for some crazy reason entertains a Kevin Lowe type situation. After a great season, good solid play-off run, Gainey gets to work and offers a three year deal for 2 million a season.(judging by Higgins and Komi deals). With so many inflated salaries out there TlTS agent thinks it would be smart to hold out and negotiate a little longer. While this is going on Kevin Lowe swoops in and offers a five year deal at 4 million a season.

What does Gainey do?

Not much he can do in that situation: either match the offer or lose the player. That's why I'd extend him NOW...to hell with this not negotiating contracts during the season business...it's a stupid policy. AK is feeling good, the team is winning...you have to think that he'd sign a fair offer pretty quickly right now.

[Wamsley01]

This might be an interesting discussion to get our minds off the Play-off run our boys have pleasantly surprised us with this year.

I'm well aware that Gainey likes to conduct his business with clean, fair and brutal honesty. I can't say that for others. The way that Waddell hung on until the last minute and put everyone against each other over the Hossa trade was sneaky. Kevin Lowe was out to play dirty last summer and didn't care about stepping on anyone that wasn't a family member. Even the rumor out of Toronto that the Leafs might try and poach Bob Gainey (won't happen) but frightening none the less. How about the way the Leafs tried to unsuccessfully grab Travares rights earlier in the season........It's getting dirty out there. Which brings me to my point.

Gainey can and does negotiate during the season, but rarely so. With GM's overpaying at trade deadlines for rentals, Season long trade droughts,except the deadline, and overpaying Unrestricted free agents in the summer create a slim pickins player buffet for the future New NHL. Teams that are hard up will start to act foolishly.

So, what happens if "BIG TlTS" for some crazy reason entertains a Kevin Lowe type situation. After a great season, good solid play-off run, Gainey gets to work and offers a three year deal for 2 million a season.(judging by Higgins and Komi deals). With so many inflated salaries out there TlTS agent thinks it would be smart to hold out and negotiate a little longer. While this is going on Kevin Lowe swoops in and offers a five year deal at 4 million a season.

What does Gainey do?

He will be signed before July 1st. Bet on it.

Lowe is an idiot. The guy pisses and moans about a level playing field and then raises prices on RFAs that will eventually bite him in his own ass.

[Habsfan]

I think we should get most of our young guys signed immediately! Give them all 6 year deals. sign them now before other teams notice how good they actually are!(komi, higgins, Big Tlts, little ####, Plex, O'Byrne.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

I really think that Burke was laughing all the way to the bank when Lowe made that offer. The compensation for offer sheets is pretty steep. A first, second and a third round draft pick helps the Ducks and seriously hurts the Oilers.

Gainey can sign Kostitsyn before July 1 or even if an offer sheet is signed, Gainey can match or get three solid picks.

I really don't see how we can loose.

[simonus]

to what degree can Lowe write offer sheets right now? he has already given away much of the necessary compensation for an RFA

Edited March 3, 2008 by simonus

[platypus]

The RFA compensation under the new CBA:

660,000 or less: none

660,000 to 1 million: 3rd Rd draft pick

1 million to 2 million: 2nd Rd pick

2 million to 3 million: 1st and 3rd pick

3 million to 4 million: 1st, 2nd and 3rd rd picks

4 million to 5 million: 2 first rd picks, 1 second and 1 third

Over 5 million: FOUR 1st round picks

I think no GM would offer big #### more than 4 million a year of the 4-5 million return compensation. Gainey would however most likely match unless an uncoming draft was particularly rich imo. In any event, most GMs are aware how Lowe ostracized himself and are unlikely to try to poach.

[SAKS-AVENUE]

Big TlTS, I think will definitely start getting some attention,Yes Kevin Lowe is an idiot and I'll bet more idiots will be coming out of the woodwork this summer. I hope that with Montreal fixing his health issues, drafting his brother, and being on the first line will not sway his head down the big money path. I just fear Gainey will be fair but someone else will be more than fair.

A lot of this depends on Andrei's security within himself and his agent. All I could dig up was Vadim Azryant. He is also the agent of Stanislav Chistov, Ilya Kovalchuk, Alexei Zhamnov, Sergei Berezin. Not sure if he still is. Anyone know what kind of contract negotiation tactics this guy holds? I can't find anything on him, and am not really sure if he is still Andrei's agent.

[Wamsley01]

Big TlTS, I think will definitely start getting some attention,Yes Kevin Lowe is an idiot and I'll bet more idiots will be coming out of the woodwork this summer. I hope that with Montreal fixing his health issues, drafting his brother, and being on the first line will not sway his head down the big money path. I just fear Gainey will be fair but someone else will be more than fair.

A lot of this depends on Andrei's security within himself and his agent. All I could dig up was Vadim Azryant. He is also the agent of Stanislav Chistov, Ilya Kovalchuk, Alexei Zhamnov, Sergei Berezin. Not sure if he still is. Anyone know what kind of contract negotiation tactics this guy holds? I can't find anything on him, and am not really sure if he is still Andrei's agent.

Gainey has put to much into this rebuild to allow them to leave for nothing. He will get it done.

Kovalev has taken him under his wing, the Habs have shown great patience with him, and he looks like he is having a blast playing with Sergei every night.

Could it happen? Anything is possible, but I don't think the signs point to him going anywhere.

The Penner signing was insanity. I am sure Burke never thought twice about lettting him go. Now Perry or Getzlaf, that would have been much different.

[JMMR]

Reasons why Andrei will sign before July 1st

1. His brother is here

2. He is a young god in Montreal

3. The team is winning

4. His family is enjoying Montreal

[Neech]

I really think that Burke was laughing all the way to the bank when Lowe made that offer. The compensation for offer sheets is pretty steep. A first, second and a third round draft pick helps the Ducks and seriously hurts the Oilers.

Gainey can sign Kostitsyn before July 1 or even if an offer sheet is signed, Gainey can match or get three solid picks.

I really don't see how we can loose.

Yeah, most GMs wouldn't have traded Penner straight-up for all those picks, especially not a top 5 pick in a deep draft, which is what Edmonton's pick might turn out to be.

I don't see why we wouldn't resign A. Kost before July 1st. I hope Gainey makes it a three year deal. More than that would cost a bigger cap hit, although it might be good in the long run. If it's three years we could probably get him for 2-3 million cap hit.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

This is a very perceptive thread. We had better get used to to other GMs trying to poach Habs' young players. We have become one of the very best developmental organizations in hockey. And don't tell me Kevin Lowe is unique. If history shows anything, it's that there is no limit to the self-immolating stupidity of NHL general managers. I guarantee you that a team with zero developmental capacity - e.g., the Leafs - will try hard to poach at least one of our best RFA young players before the decade is out. One hopes that Gainey is aware of this situation...but sometimes a man of his experience will be caught off guard by his colleagues violating what he sees as the code. (E.g., I still suspect Wadell jerked him around on the Hossa thing). Hopefully Bob is on the ball here.

Edited March 4, 2008 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Habsfan]

Just to make sure I understand correctly. The RFA situation works like this.

If a player on the Habs for example is an RFA and another team makes an offer that is higher than what the Habs offer him, the Habs have the opportunity to match that offer. If they choose not to match it, then the Habs get draft picks depending on what salary the poaching team offered and signed that RFA to?!

SO if the Habs were to offer Big Tlts a 3 year 7.5 million$ contract and then the Leaves come along and offer Big Tlts a 3 year 12 million$ Contract(4 million per year), The Habs would have to match that offer. If they were to choose not to match the offer, Big Tlts would go to the Leaves and in return the Habs would get a 1st, a 2nd and a 3rd round pick from the Leaves(cause Big Tlts will be making 4 million$ per year)?

If that's the case, then I'm not really worried. Most of our good young kids will be making more than 2.5 million$ within the next 2 years(Higgins, PLex, Komisarek, Big Tlts, little Tlts), and any team that tries to poach them from us, would have to give up a shitload of picks. Then again, the Habs have plenty of room under that cap and could afford to pay a premium to keep a few of the good young players that we have!

Edited March 4, 2008 by Habsfan

[SAKS-AVENUE]

Just to make sure I understand correctly. The RFA situation works like this.

If a player on the Habs for example is an RFA and another team makes an offer that is higher than what the Habs offer him, the Habs have the opportunity to match that offer. If they choose not to match it, then the Habs get draft picks depending on what salary the poaching team offered and signed that RFA to?!

SO if the Habs were to offer Big Tlts a 3 year 7.5 million$ contract and then the Leaves come along and offer Big Tlts a 3 year 12 million$ Contract(4 million per year), The Habs would have to match that offer. If they were to choose not to match the offer, Big Tlts would go to the Leaves and in return the Habs would get a 1st, a 2nd and a 3rd round pick from the Leaves(cause Big Tlts will be making 4 million$ per year)?

If that's the case, then I'm not really worried. Most of our good young kids will be making more than 2.5 million$ within the next 2 years(Higgins, PLex, Komisarek, Big Tlts, little Tlts), and any team that tries to poach them from us, would have to give up a shitload of picks. Then again, the Habs have plenty of room under that cap and could afford to pay a premium to keep a few of the good young players that we have!

Yes, that is exactly how it would work.

I agree with JMMR on all his reasons why Big TlTS, like Markov who was(UFA) will purely remain a Habs because he wants to be here. My concerns are his agent making things difficult by holding out past July 1st to get more money in his contract.......like Ryder, just to be a hard A$$.

If TlTS agent creates this situation it will open a window for dirty GM's like Kevin Lowe to come in and make a silly offer like 4 million because they can..........and Andrei just might take it.

Sure that leaves us with a hard decision, take the picks or match. TlTS would be worth matching but would hurt our salary cap because I think an outside offer will be way more then what Gainey will initially offer. I expect Gainey to offer 3 years 2 million since that's what he did with Higgins and Komi.

I wouldn't have even thought about this for O'Byrne or Laps or even Chips......but Big TlTS will be getting this kind of attention. He will become a game changing, impact player very soon, and other GM's will be watching.

Add to the fact Gainey doesn't play this way, but I feel many GM's in the NHL will turn to these dirty tactics because getting good players through the trade market is becoming very difficult.

[Habsfan]

I agree with JMMR on all his reasons why Big TlTS, like Markov who was(UFA) will purely remain a Habs because he wants to be here. My concerns are his agent making things difficult by holding out past July 1st to get more money in his contract.......like Ryder, just to be a hard A$$.

Yeah, but I get the Impression that with Kovy, markov(who just signed a 4 year deal) and his little brother on the team, Big Tlts would be more than willing to accept a hometown discount.

Let's not forget that Montréal for a RICH guy in his 20's can be very interesting !

Plus, i just read in teh Papers that Kostitsyn is gonna have his wife and baby move to Montréal this summer. ANother good "sign"!

[Neech]

Yeah, but I get the Impression that with Kovy, markov(who just signed a 4 year deal) and his little brother on the team, Big Tlts would be more than willing to accept a hometown discount.

He would probably want to stay, but players rarely go for the hometown discount. Especially guys whose hometown is six thousand miles away. Markov was up front about wanting to stay from day one, but he didn't accept less than market value.

[JMMR]

He would probably want to stay, but players rarely go for the hometown discount. Especially guys whose hometown is six thousand miles away. Markov was up front about wanting to stay from day one, but he didn't accept less than market value.

You think Markov would have only got 5.75 on the open market?

[Neech]

You think Markov would have only got 5.75 on the open market?

After last season, I'd say that's in the upper range of what he would have gotten.

[saskhab]

Andrei is one of the better RFA's out there, but if it's anything like last year, where they target impact players from top to bottom, right now Andrei has a few names to fall before he becomes top dog.

Remember, last year it started with Vanek, and yes it went to Penner next, but there were others in there as well. After the Vanek offer sheet, the Rangers rushed to get Lundqvist off the market and forced him to arbitration. New Jersey rushed a negotiation with Parise to get him to not think of any outside offers (he claims he turned away potential offer sheets because he wanted to remain in Jersey), and the Kings lucked out and had Cammalleri take them to arbitration.

Here's a list of all potential RFA's:

http://www.nhlnumbers.com/freeagents.php?t...type=salary0708

Right now, I'd say Perry, Weber, Green, Bouwmeester, and maybe Jeff Carter are ahead in priority. Wildcards are always goalies, with Leclaire being the frontrunner followed by Lehtonen. As seen with last year, if Andrei is considered a 1B level RFA, he can quickly be vaulted up to the elite status with guys like Bouchard, Meszaros, and Wideman if just one brick falls like Vanek last year.

Here's the thing with offer sheets... Andrei can refuse them if he wants to, or feels he's close to a deal with Montreal anyways. So positive dialogue can help eliminate this as an option. What we learned with Vanek and Penner last year was virtually no dialogue was occuring in their situations before the offer sheet came along. Buffalo out of ignorance and the loss of Briere and Drury hadn't figured to talk to Vanek that much, and Burke seemingly left Penner out as potential bait IMO before crying foul when the offer sheet came.

[JMMR]

After last season, I'd say that's in the upper range of what he would have gotten.

Okay so you think NHL teams think Rafalski > Markov? Timmonen > Markov and a 38 year old Schneider = Markov pretty much come on.

Markov would have got at least 1mill more per season on the open market.

[saskhab]

Okay so you think NHL teams think Rafalski > Markov? Timmonen > Markov and a 38 year old Schneider = Markov pretty much come on.

Markov would have got at least 1mill more per season on the open market.

Agreed. A lot of GM's would've looked at those other 3 blueliners and realized Markov had at least 4 or 5 prime years more ahead of him than those guys. That's the huge part of the Markov deal... He's signed from 29-33 years old. Timmonen is signed from 33-40 essentially, and Rafalski from 34-39. Schneider is a shorter term, but it's still his 38 and 39 years. There's no doubt that Markov would've fetched more than that. Which at the time of the deal, seemed unbelievable. We fans generally thought Markov could be had for $5m or so a year... $5.75m seemed shocking.

And we got Hamrlik at $5.5m for ages 33-37, too, so the Markov deal shows he did end up taking a hometown discount, whether consciously or not.

[SAKS-AVENUE]

Agreed. A lot of GM's would've looked at those other 3 blueliners and realized Markov had at least 4 or 5 prime years more ahead of him than those guys. That's the huge part of the Markov deal... He's signed from 29-33 years old. Timmonen is signed from 33-40 essentially, and Rafalski from 34-39. Schneider is a shorter term, but it's still his 38 and 39 years. There's no doubt that Markov would've fetched more than that. Which at the time of the deal, seemed unbelievable. We fans generally thought Markov could be had for $5m or so a year... $5.75m seemed shocking.

And we got Hamrlik at $5.5m for ages 33-37, too, so the Markov deal shows he did end up taking a hometown discount, whether consciously or not.

I hope consciously. It would really suck to feel like you should have got more. The part that sucks, is he signed fast and early. After July money went up in a stupid way and will continue. Still he's making a lot of cash and playing well so I'm sure he 's not the type to cry over a million dollars.

[Neech]

Okay so you think NHL teams think Rafalski > Markov? Timmonen > Markov and a 38 year old Schneider = Markov pretty much come on.

Markov would have got at least 1mill more per season on the open market.

People overpay for veterans, Markov was entering his first year as a UFA. Maybe there would have been a bidding war for him, but I honestly think he was flying more or less under the radar.

[JMMR]

People overpay for veterans, Markov was entering his first year as a UFA. Maybe there would have been a bidding war for him, but I honestly think he was flying more or less under the radar.

From other teams fans maybe but don't believe for a seond that NHL teams do not have pro scouting.

[Neech]

From other teams fans maybe but don't believe for a seond that NHL teams do not have pro scouting.

He was certainly lower on the radar than Rafalski and Timmonen.