Best Habs Goaltender of all-time!

[Wamsley01]

Hey, I'm disappointed that nobody picked up on my Bill Durnan argument. His record is nearly as unblemished as Dryden's. Actually, the two had rather similar careers...both very short...both marked by massive excellence. But Durnan was team captain (! ) and had the funky ambidextrous thing happening. Ah well.

As some have already observed, it makes little sense to make comparisons across generations in terms of on-ice ability. Today's goalies are exceedingly well-coached instead of being self-taught; they are on fitness and workout regimens; they have advantages of videotape, etc; and use vastly better equipment. I have no doubt that even an average goalie of today would probably at least rival the greats of the past, in terms of performance on the ice. The same is true of position players. And statistics like save % and GAA are grossly crude indicators, because the way the game is played varies so much from epoch to epoch. Even things like Cup wins aren't pure indicators of anything other than supremacy *in the particular context in which a player found himself.* But then again, that's what matters.

I go with Plante because his record suggests that he was at least as dominant in his context as Roy was in his, even factoring in the more numerous competition faced by the latter. For instance: Roy was OWNED by Andy Moog for four playoff series in the late 80s-early 90s. I'm unaware of a comparable scenario for Plante. But - more importantly - there is no way that Roy's impact on the game rival's Plante's. The roving goalie and the mask were courageous innovations, in defiance of coaches and conventional wisdom, whose impact exceeds that of the butterfly. Since they both had awesome performance, that's the difference-maker for me. (Still, that 3 Conn Smythes are very impressive).

As for those who would use stats to question Roy's greatness: his regular season stats were so-so. But check out his playoff numbers and get back to me, because those were stratospheric.

(I can remember Roy's glory days very clearly. I also remember that A LOT of Montreal fans didn't like him, well before his substandard 1993 regular season. Many never forgave him for letting in spectacularly weak goals from time to time, nor for inconsistency - e.g., his 1987 and 1992 playoffs were pretty feeble. And of course some Anglos disliked him because the French made such a big deal out of him. I maintained at the time that these people were morons but it's interesting how hindsight clarifies a greatness not so obvious at the time).

Incidentally, Wamsley is absolutely right, #33 will be retired next season, and that will be the last sweater retired for a looooong time to come.

Great post.

I guess you could say Moog owned Roy, but I tend to think it was Cam Neely and Ray Bourque. Although Moog always seemed to save his best for the Habs even back to his Oiler days. Neely and Janney and then Oates used to just destroy the Habs. The Bruins had a huge home ice advantage back then playing out of the tiny Boston Garden. I remember the Habs winning maybe one or two games in the Garden in the last 4 series against them. I think Richer won one in OT in 91 and Muller won one in OT in 94. Every other game it would be a repeat of Neely standing in front of Roy pumping home rebounds and Bourque throwing shots at the net and the Bruin plumbers crashing the crease. I hated Ray Bourque so much I was torn over Roy winning his 3rd Conn Smythe because I didn't want Bourque to win a Cup. Even highlights of that sliding one knee fist pump still make me sick

I was so relieved when the Sabres swept them in 93 because they just had the Habs number back then.

Edited March 11, 2008 by Wamsley01

[Fat Tony]

Hey, I'm disappointed that nobody picked up on my Bill Durnan argument. His record is nearly as unblemished as Dryden's. Actually, the two had rather similar careers...both very short...both marked by massive excellence. But Durnan was team captain (! ) and had the funky ambidextrous thing happening. Ah well.

I mentioned Durnan in my first post and I agree he deserves consideration. But in my opinion he and Dryden both had too short careers to be all time greats...but they were both amazing for what, about 8 years. I was a big Dryden fan, in fact I dug up some old super 8 movies of me playing in 1973 and for the first time I realized how much I tried to copy Dryden

(I can remember Roy's glory days very clearly. I also remember that A LOT of Montreal fans didn't like him, well before his substandard 1993 regular season. Many never forgave him for letting in spectacularly weak goals from time to time, nor for inconsistency - e.g., his 1987 and 1992 playoffs were pretty feeble. And of course some Anglos disliked him because the French made such a big deal out of him. I maintained at the time that these people were morons but it's interesting how hindsight clarifies a greatness not so obvious at the time).

Incidentally, Wamsley is absolutely right, #33 will be retired next season, and that will be the last sweater retired for a looooong time to come.

I disliked Roy as a human being so much I actually stopped watching the Habs for his last few seasons. Stats are stats, but I feel the same way about Roy's arrogance and poor sportsmanship as many feel about Ray Emery these days. My personal feelings aside, you can't argue that at worst he's a top 5 goalie of all time and his number is worthy of retirement...in fact I believe he's the only Habs to EVER wear 33.

Plante is was and will always be my choice however

[Wamsley01]

I mentioned Durnan in my first post and I agree he deserves consideration. But in my opinion he and Dryden both had too short careers to be all time greats...but they were both amazing for what, about 8 years. I was a big Dryden fan, in fact I dug up some old super 8 movies of me playing in 1973 and for the first time I realized how much I tried to copy Dryden

I disliked Roy as a human being so much I actually stopped watching the Habs for his last few seasons. Stats are stats, but I feel the same way about Roy's arrogance and poor sportsmanship as many feel about Ray Emery these days. My personal feelings aside, you can't argue that at worst he's a top 5 goalie of all time and his number is worthy of retirement...in fact I believe he's the only Habs to EVER wear 33.

Plante is was and will always be my choice however

How could you forget the immortal Richard Sevigny?

Ray Emery and Patrick Roy? Are you really making that comparison? Emery has done nothing to

warrent his attitude. Roy may have been arrogant and cocky, but it made him what he was.

To steal a line from another famous Canadian.

Roy is "The best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be"

Edited March 11, 2008 by Wamsley01

[Fat Tony]

How could you forget the immortal Richard Sevigny?

Ray Emery and Patrick Roy? Are you really making that comparison? Emery has done nothing to

warrent his attitude. Roy may have been arrogant and cocky, but it made him what he was.

To steal a line from another famous Canadian.

Roy is "The best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be"

I'm not for a second comparing Emery's & Roy's skills. Just making a comparison to their attitudes and how some fans feel about them. I don't buy that Roy's attitude made him what he was, it was a side show that was completely unnecessary and not becoming of the CH.

[geolink]

Jose Theodore /thread.

J/k. Im with Plante on this one as well.

[Helmethead]

Roy..

No doubt about it.

Look at the following table.

Leading Goaltenders GAA for 1985-86 season

Player Team GP MIN GA SO GAA

Bob Froese Philadelphia Flyers 51 2728 116 5 2.55

Al Jensen Washington Capitals 44 2437 129 2 3.18

Clint Malarchuk Quebec Nordiques 46 2657 142 4 3.21

Kelly Hrudey New York Islanders 45 2563 137 1 3.21

John Vanbisbrook NYR 61 3326 184 3 3.32

Patrick Roy Montreal Canadiens 47 2651 148 1 3.35

If my memory serves me correctly Roy posted a 1.92 GAA in the 86' Playoffs. He hit that number at a time when Goalies averaging anything under 3 was surreal.

If anyone has any footage from that Wales Conference semi finals against the Rangers please post it. That was the most awe-inspiring and shocking goaltending in history. Anyone too young to have witness Roy in the 86' playoffs MUST SEE this. The most arrogant, annoying, cocky SOB ever. If he wore a Nordiques jersey we all would have collectively loathed him for life.

[Mont Royale]

It seems some people are actually penalizing Plante and Dryden because they played with great teams, as if that somehow diminishes their goaltending abilities. I don't subscribe to that idea, and would argue that their goaltending was a key component of what made those teams great.

It should be remembered that Plante won the Vezina in '62 and '69 with comparatively weaker teams (a 'rebuilding' Habs team, and St. Louis respectively), and led the league in GAA in '62, '69, and '71. Dryden sat out a year ('73-74) due to a contract dispute, and the Habs came out with 21 fewer points in the standings that year, compared to the year previous.

The impact of both players, even as part of great teams, was enormous, and in Plante's case, it can be demonstrated that he didn't need a great team around him to excel.

I'll take Plante.

[CBHabs_fan]

Doug Soetart

[Wamsley01]

I'm not for a second comparing Emery's & Roy's skills. Just making a comparison to their attitudes and how some fans feel about them. I don't buy that Roy's attitude made him what he was, it was a side show that was completely unnecessary and not becoming of the CH.

Neither am I.

But I don't recall Patrick Roy putting Mike Tyson on his mask.

I don't recall Patrick Roy being repeatedly pulled over by police in Montreal.

I don't recall Patrick Roy sleeping in and being late for practice 3-4 times in a season.

I don't think it is a strong example.

I may be wrong because I didn't live in Montreal, so if there was a sideshow I have no idea what it was.

But the national media didn't pick up on it.

[Fat Tony]

Great thread and many compelling discussions. But I stand by my earlier sentiments that 30 somethings will choose Roy, 40 somethings will choose Dryden and 50ish (not quite there yet ) will choose Plante...all three were great and all three are worthy of consideration. In the case of too close to call, human nature is to go with the guy you grew up with I guess. But really, anyone much under 40 never saw Plante and probably can barely remember Dryden and I just don't think it's right to pick the best by stats alone...if you didn't see all three it's not fair to rule any one out IMHO. Therefore this discussion, while fun, will solve nothing.

Now all we need is a 60 year old to say Gerry Mcneil was the greatest or a 70 year old to tell us all we're full of crap, there was nobody like Durnan or an 80 year old to say Wilf Cude was a God or a 90 year old to tell us we're all nuts it's Hainsworth or a 100 year old to tell us whippersnappers that Vezina's the man :lol:

[Fat Tony]

Neither am I.

But I don't recall Patrick Roy putting Mike Tyson on his mask.

I don't recall Patrick Roy being repeatedly pulled over by police in Montreal.

I don't recall Patrick Roy sleeping in and being late for practice 3-4 times in a season.

I don't think it is a strong example.

I may be wrong because I didn't live in Montreal, so if there was a sideshow I have no idea what it was.

But the national media didn't pick up on it.

I'm not going to win with you because you're manipulating my words and taking everything 100% literally. Let's leave it that I didn't like Roy's arrogance and sometimes poor sportsmanship...btw, Roy didn't drive a hummer, he wasn't a boxer and he was a white guy if you're planning on going there next

[Wamsley01]

I'm not going to win with you because you're manipulating my words and taking everything 100% literally. Let's leave it that I didn't like Roy's arrogance and sometimes poor sportsmanship...btw, Roy didn't drive a hummer, he wasn't a boxer and he was a white guy if you're planning on going there next

I am not twisting anything. I just don't think it is an apt comparison.

Roy might have been an arrogant SOB, but he earned the right. Emery is a nobody who has accomplished

nothing and is in the process of throwing it all away because he refuses to make his NHL career his priority.

And Roy was never a team distraction that was a probably the cause for a team collapse.

I am asking you to show me how they are similar, that is all.

Edited March 11, 2008 by Wamsley01

[Fat Tony]

I am not twisting anything. I just don't think it is an apt comparison.

Roy might have been an arrogant SOB, but he earned the right. Emery is a nobody who has accomplished

nothing and is in the process of throwing it all away because he refuses to make his NHL career his priority.

And Roy was never a team distraction that was a probably the cause for a team collapse.

I am asking you to show me how they are similar, that is all.

To stop this line of questioning in it's tracks, I never compared Emery with Roy in any way shape or form. That's what I mean about you manipulating my words. Here's EXACTLY what I said and I stand by the comment your honor

"but I feel the same way about Roy's arrogance and poor sportsmanship as many feel about Ray Emery these days"

Edited March 11, 2008 by Fat Tony

[Wamsley01]

To stop this line of questioning in it's tracks, I never compared Emery with Roy in any way shape or form. That's what I mean about you manipulating my words. Here's EXACTLY what I said and I stand by the comment your honor

THAT IS A COMPARISON.

You are saying people feel the same about a player who misses practice, wears convicted felons on his mask

and is constantly being pulled over by the police as you did about Roy.

I am asking why? I am asking what has Roy done to deserve the hatred reserved for a guy like Emery.

I hate LaDanlian Tomlinson like people hated OJ back in the day. I am not comparing the two in anyway.

Just randomly throwing out a name that is not really comparable but will elicit a response.

If you did view Roy in that way, you were a serious hater. In which case your evaluation contains a massive bias.

But whatever, if you hated him that much I hate to see what you would have felt if he never won any cups

Edited March 12, 2008 by Wamsley01

[bookworm]

Ken Dryden was my favourite. Don't forget the Cup in 1971 the Habs were underdogs going into the playoffs. Also, according to his book "The Game" he gave them a year's notice of his plans to retire. That seems pretty classy.

I was a fan of Roy fan until the night he told the team he wouldn't play for them anymore. I don't think his number should be retired by the Canadiens.

There were also a lot of great Habs goalies I've read about that I never got a chance to see play.

Carey Price and Jaroslav Halak both have a lot of potential too.

Les Canadiens sont la!

[Wamsley01]

Ken Dryden was my favourite. Don't forget the Cup in 1971 the Habs were underdogs going into the playoffs. Also, according to his book "The Game" he gave them a year's notice of his plans to retire. That seems pretty classy.

I was a fan of Roy fan until the night he told the team he wouldn't play for them anymore. I don't think his number should be retired by the Canadiens.

There were also a lot of great Habs goalies I've read about that I never got a chance to see play.

Carey Price and Jaroslav Halak both have a lot of potential too.

Les Canadiens sont la!

Can't go wrong with Ken Dryden

[Fat Tony]

THAT IS A COMPARISON.

You are saying people feel the same about a player who misses practice, wears convicted felons on his mask

and is constantly being pulled over by the police as you did about Roy.

I am asking why? I am asking what has Roy done to deserve the hatred reserved for a guy like Emery.

I hate LaDanlian Tomlinson like people hated OJ back in the day. I am not comparing the two in anyway.

Just randomly throwing out a name that is not really comparable but will elicit a response.

If you did view Roy in that way, you were a serious hater. In which case your evaluation contains a massive bias.

But whatever, if you hated him that much I hate to see what you would have felt if he never won any cups

Wrong again my friend. I'm comparing how I PERSONALLY feel about the guy to how some currently feel about Emery. I respect his talent, didn't care for the way he conducted himself at times...at no point is there any comparison between Roy & Emery...merely a segue of my feelings toward him as a similarity to other folks feelings towards Emery. You've completely missed what I was trying to say and this is the 3rd time I've tried to explain it. I also held him and Tremblay equally responsible for the final meltdown...I've pretty much forgiven Roy over the years but Tremblay is dead to me

That said, I was in the Forum in the 1993 playoffs cheering his every move, he was a Montreal Canadien after all.

[Wamsley01]

Wrong again my friend. I'm comparing how I PERSONALLY feel about the guy to how some currently feel about Emery. I respect his talent, didn't care for the way he conducted himself at times...at no point is there any comparison between Roy & Emery...merely a segue of my feelings toward him as a similarity to other folks feelings towards Emery. You've completely missed what I was trying to say and this is the 3rd time I've tried to explain it. I also held him and Tremblay equally responsible for the final meltdown...I've pretty much forgiven Roy over the years but Tremblay is dead to me

That said, I was in the Forum in the 1993 playoffs cheering his every move, he was a Montreal Canadien after all.

I get it, you were a hater

Next topic

Edited March 12, 2008 by Wamsley01

[Fat Tony]

Ken Dryden was my favourite. Don't forget the Cup in 1971 the Habs were underdogs going into the playoffs. Also, according to his book "The Game" he gave them a year's notice of his plans to retire. That seems pretty classy.

I was a fan of Roy fan until the night he told the team he wouldn't play for them anymore. I don't think his number should be retired by the Canadiens.

There were also a lot of great Habs goalies I've read about that I never got a chance to see play.

Carey Price and Jaroslav Halak both have a lot of potential too.

Les Canadiens sont la!

Since I can remember, my favourite Habs goalies in the order I saw them were; Vachon, Dryden, Penney, Theodore, Price. Dryden was pretty much my reason for playing goal. I learned to appreciate Plante near the end of his career and because of his excellent and still somewhat relevant book on goaltending.

Dryden's real gift was the ability to stand there leaning on his stick for 8 minutes and then make a heart stopping save. Any goalie will tell you that is a rare skill!

[Fat Tony]

I get it, you were a hater

Next topic

Why are you going there? Am I not allowed my opinion? I totally respect your opinion, if I don't always agree with you I'm no longer worthy?

[InsaneHABSfan]

Why are you going there? Am I not allowed my opinion? I totally respect your opinion, if I don't always agree with you I'm no longer worthy?

Its the typical Political Rhetoritical change the direction so they get confused strategy...... Don't fall for it!

We all know the guy the trophy is named after is the best.

[Wamsley01]

Why are you going there? Am I not allowed my opinion? I totally respect your opinion, if I don't always agree with you I'm no longer worthy?

What? I asked to explain how the hate is the same so I can understand 3 times.

They are in no way the same in their actions off the ice. I don't know anybody who has any respect for Emery,

I don't know anybody who likes Emery.

So if you hated him that bad, I deduced you must be a hater. It is not disrespect in anyway. Don't take it that way

I just came to that conclusion.

Edited March 12, 2008 by Wamsley01

[Fat Tony]

What? I asked to explain how the hate is the same so I can understand 3 times.

They are in no way the same in their actions off the ice. I don't know anybody who has any respect for Emery,

I don't know anybody who likes Emery.

So if you hated him that bad, I deduced you must be a hater. It is not disrespect in anyway. Don't take it that way

I just came to that conclusion.

Not for a second do I hate Roy. I just wish he could have shown a little more class and handled that fateful night more like a grown man. I give him his full due as a goalie. He is statistically the best and arguable a top 3 of all time...where is the hate there? Embrace a slightly different view big guy!

[Wamsley01]

Not for a second do I hate Roy. I just wish he could have shown a little more class and handled that fateful night more like a grown man. I give him his full due as a goalie. He is statistically the best and arguable a top 3 of all time...where is the hate there? Embrace a slightly different view big guy!

Like I said, the misunderstaning comes from the Emery comparison. Which is why I disagreed with it.

I didn't know you were talking about the last night he played as a Habs.

I have always been fine with the way he handled it. The Montreal fans in the building that night showed

zero class. I don't care if Roy stunk that night, he allowed me to experience two Cups, and for that

I would never boo that man.

Does he have regrets? I am sure he does. But he was treated poorly by Tremblay, Corey and those in attendance as well.

[Fat Tony]

Like I said, the misunderstaning comes from the Emery comparison. Which is why I disagreed with it.

I didn't know you were talking about the last night he played as a Habs.

I have always been fine with the way he handled it. The Montreal fans in the building that night showed

zero class. I don't care if Roy stunk that night, he allowed me to experience two Cups, and for that

I would never boo that man.

Does he have regrets? I am sure he does. But he was treated poorly by Tremblay, Corey and those in attendance as well.

Agreed, and I never booed him...I just wish he had shown more maturity and class. If he had sucked it up that night and handled things like a pro behind closed doors...Tremblay likely would have faded in to the sunset and Roy would have won cups 25 & maybe 26 for us. All my feelings about him aside, he was a franchise player who should have retired a Canadien. Ultimately I blame him for that night. Not because he caused it, but because his pride and ego wouldn't allow him out of it.