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zumpano21

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1 - I hardly see how the gay marriage thing is solely a Tory issue. Many high-ranking Liberals, including cabinet and back benchers, are known to oppose gay marriage.

2 - A fringe member of the Tories did try to bring in C-484 which indirectly may have gone on to become an abortion issue. It went nowhere.

3 - I hardly see how the instruction of creationism in a few Bible schools in Alberta or Saskatchewan could have anything to do with the Tory agenda.

4 - Yes, Harper was pro-Iraq war at the outset. He'd be completely foolish to not have learned from that mistake.

What I'm trying to push here is that the Tory party has grown up from its former fringe mindset. Harper is very keen on winning Quebec eventually and knows that he can never do that buy allowing the nutbars in his party to gain any traction.

Voting for a Liberal party that has boldly dipped its hands in your pocket, while at the same time crying wolf about the Tory party, is a mindset that is inflexible in the minds of many Canadians. It needs to be broken.

1. I don't think the Libs would have set a vote on gay marriage even if some of the leaders are against it, this is a straight right wing conservative move. Forget how it went, it clearly shows where the Tories stand.

2. It all started like this in the US, ending up with a situation where, in a few states, foetus has more rights than the freakin' mother. Forget how it ended, it clearly shows where the Tories stand.

3. Yeah, maybe not now, but then they get majority and a government program who would finance the catholic schools might pop up or something... We never know, they tried to give financial help to the forest industry during the crisis just AFTER their budget would be accepted. Hopefully they retracted under pressure.

the PC is smart, they know how to win Quebec : by cuting taxes because Québec, outside Montreal, is loaded with SMB's, those who really see advantages in these cuts. For a regular household, it means around 600$ to 1000$ more in their pocket. That's not so bad, but I would rather see G$ in social programs than 60$ per month in my pockets. But that's me and my left opinion. If you are all about your own money and comfort, then you'll like the PC.

Back to the first question (how do I see that Bush=Harper), easy Harpers opinions and actions look like a freaking tribute to Bush policies.

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1. I don't think the Libs would have set a vote on gay marriage even if some of the leaders are against it, this is a straight right wing conservative move. Forget how it went, it clearly shows where the Tories stand.

2. It all started like this in the US, ending up with a situation where, in a few states, foetus has more rights than the freakin' mother. Forget how it ended, it clearly shows where the Tories stand.

3. Yeah, maybe not now, but then they get majority and a government program who would finance the catholic schools might pop up or something... We never know, they tried to give financial help to the forest industry during the crisis just AFTER their budget would be accepted. Hopefully they retracted under pressure.

the PC is smart, they know how to win Quebec : by cuting taxes because Québec, outside Montreal, is loaded with SMB's, those who really see advantages in these cuts. For a regular household, it means around 600$ to 1000$ more in their pocket. That's not so bad, but I would rather see G$ in social programs than 60$ per month in my pockets. But that's me and my left opinion. If you are all about your own money and comfort, then you'll like the PC.

Back to the first question (how do I see that Bush=Harper), easy Harpers opinions and actions look like a freaking tribute to Bush policies.

As somebody else metionned, give Harper a little credit as a politician. I strongly doubt that Harper ever thought those bills regarding abortion, gay marriage, ... would ever pass, but he made promises to his right-wing extremist supporters (who probably still think the planet is flat) during his campaign, and he followed through. He put those motions to a vote knowing very well that they would never pass, and those voters will still vote for him at the upcoming elections.

The fact is that in reality, there is hardly any difference between the Tories and the Liberals. In theory they may be a little further apart, but in practice - once in power - they're both right there in the middle. After all, as much as some people love or hate Harper and his conservative party, Canada would not better or worse off today if the Liberals were still in power...

Edited by CerebusClone
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As somebody else metionned, give Harper a little credit as a politician. I strongly doubt that Harper ever thought those bills regarding abortion, gay marriage, ... would ever pass, but he made promises to his right-wing extremist supporters (who probably still think the planet is flat) during his campaign, and he followed through. He put those motions to a vote knowing very well that they would never pass, and those voters will still vote for him at the upcoming elections.

The fact is that in reality, there is hardly any difference between the Tories and the Liberals. In theory they may be a little further apart, but in practice - once in power - they're both right there in the middle. After all, as much as some people love or hate Harper and his conservative party, Canada would not better or worse off today if the Liberals were still in power...

Never said Libs were better.

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1. I don't think the Libs would have set a vote on gay marriage even if some of the leaders are against it, this is a straight right wing conservative move. Forget how it went, it clearly shows where the Tories stand.

2. It all started like this in the US, ending up with a situation where, in a few states, foetus has more rights than the freakin' mother. Forget how it ended, it clearly shows where the Tories stand.

3. Yeah, maybe not now, but then they get majority and a government program who would finance the catholic schools might pop up or something... We never know, they tried to give financial help to the forest industry during the crisis just AFTER their budget would be accepted. Hopefully they retracted under pressure.

the PC is smart, they know how to win Quebec : by cuting taxes because Québec, outside Montreal, is loaded with SMB's, those who really see advantages in these cuts. For a regular household, it means around 600$ to 1000$ more in their pocket. That's not so bad, but I would rather see G$ in social programs than 60$ per month in my pockets. But that's me and my left opinion. If you are all about your own money and comfort, then you'll like the PC.

Back to the first question (how do I see that Bush=Harper), easy Harpers opinions and actions look like a freaking tribute to Bush policies.

Well, for one thing you've raised issues that a lot of people have issues with both for and against. Politicians don't like to debate them because they're hot potatoes with no clear cut majority one way or another...

You say that the Tories stance is clearly shown but all you propose is your opinion without any factual evidence. You were presented with evidence of many Liberals opposing gay marriage, the tories have never raised the issue since they've been in power yet you still defend the Liberals...this is why I continuously say the left wingers can't see the forest for the trees. The opinions are based on soft emotions, often without supporting logic. Hey, if you could tell me that the Tories have tried to repeal this since taking power and that this was a part of their platform then I could understand...you have none of that because it's simply not true.

As for Canadian abortion "laws"...there is currently no limit to when a mother can have an abortion. Many doctors won't perform them past the 5 month but there is no legal reason they can't. My sister was born in the 5th month, in the 1970's but she could legally have been aborted today. That's not right IN MY OPINION but hey, I recognize it's a hot topic. My personal belief is that abortion is generally wrong past the first couple months with a few over-riding exceptions due to situational circumstances. However, this country has the most open abortion practices of the industrialized world and it's not really a good thing. There is no way a mother should be able to have an abortion on a child that has an excellent survival rate outside the womb. I would never suggest the elmination of pro-choice...there are always situations and reasons that abortion makes sense. I just think there should certainly be a definition or cut-off at an acceptable limit. JMHO...and yeah, I know this paragraph could hi-jack the thread...sorry. LOL.

The creationism thing is a joke. The Conservatives aren't going there but it's trumped around by left wing fear mongering.

Seriously, if Harper had a majority do you really believe that all of a sudden he's going to rip off a mask, yell boo, and suddenly we'll be in Iraq, abortion and same sex marriage will be illegal, creationism will be taught in PROVINCIALLY RUN SCHOOLS, the anti-christ will be born, all art and culture will end due to lack of government funds, all colour will be banned in favour of gray, etc...it's ridiculous. All the Liberals, NDP and their media allies have is to try and sway voters on fear and emotion...which they bombard people with every day on the hope that if you hear it enough it will become true.

But wait, it gets better...if you vote Liberal you'll see pristine rivers, no pollution, better health care, better education, less corruption (somehow despite their track record), more money for the arts and culture, loads of gay people, more immigrants able to bring friends/family over, less homeless, blah blah blah...all with LESS taxes. Wow, it's lollipop land...

The media thinks people are stupid enough to buy this crap...because too many people do buy into this crap.

Edited by Zowpeb
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Dion :wall: He's shifting the Carbon Tax plan to include incentives on rebates for truckers and other heavily burdened industry and individuals.

FLIP FLOP! Why didn't the Red machine do this initially. If Harper gets a majority, I'll blame dumb dumb Dion.

:angry:

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There was this little thing he kept repeating during the last election campaign, about more openness and accountability in a Conservative government. Then once he wins a minority government, he shuts large segments of the media out of press conferences, puts gags on many members of his cabinet, and resorts to lawsuits to try and control any form of criticism. He passes a law fixing election dates every four years, then repeatedly suggests an election is possible by holding endless numbers of confidence votes, which he's never lost, all the while claiming that his government can't govern. And for the first 30 months of his term, his first response to any question usually began, "The previous Liberal governments…" If anything, minority governments should be more open and accountable to the electorate, and yet he's done the exact opposite.

Here's how I see it.

Minority government for the Liberals.

Leadership change for whichever party loses.

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There was this little thing he kept repeating during the last election campaign, about more openness and accountability in a Conservative government. Then once he wins a minority government, he shuts large segments of the media out of press conferences, puts gags on many members of his cabinet, and resorts to lawsuits to try and control any form of criticism. He passes a law fixing election dates every four years, then repeatedly suggests an election is possible by holding endless numbers of confidence votes, which he's never lost, all the while claiming that his government can't govern. And for the first 30 months of his term, his first response to any question usually began, "The previous Liberal governments…" If anything, minority governments should be more open and accountable to the electorate, and yet he's done the exact opposite.

You forgot one: pre-election pandering. The recent announcement of a direct subsidy to a Ford plant in Windsor is in direct contrast to their previous policy (which I happened to agree with) as described by Finance Minister Flaherty in January:

Mr. Flaherty criticized the Ontario government's reported willingness to provide $30-million to help reopen the engine plant, saying Premier Dalton McGuinty should lower business taxes first.

"What Dalton McGuinty is doing is the short-term, ad-hoc, subsidy thinking ... the kind of old-fashioned thinking that's proven to be a failure of short-term, Band-Aid fixes for specific companies," he said.

"Quite frankly, politicians aren't very good at picking business winners and losers."

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Imagine a political party that stuck to its principles regardless of whether an election was coming or not. Unfortunately, regardless of who's in power, I don't think we'll ever see it.

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This is madness. What is Dion doing when he's asking for resignations due to the listerios outbreak? What does the government have to do with that? The government sets the standards for regulating private companies to ensure safety. Then the next branch of government is the civil service and Health Canada plus the the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. However, Mr. Dion wants to put this down as the responsibility of ministers.

Nice try. Most people are going to roll their eyes at that.

Also, how about the Greens who turfed one of their candidates just days before an expected federal election call over allegations he made remarks deemed anti-Semitic?

CTV - Greens pull candidate for 'anti-Semitic' remarks

I thought it was the Tories who supposedly are always the screw ups.

Edited by Athlétique.Canadien
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This is madness. What is Dion doing when he's asking for resignations due to the listerios outbreak? What does the government have to do with that? The government sets the standards for regulating private companies to ensure safety. Then the next branch of government is the civil service and Health Canada plus the the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. However, Mr. Dion wants to put this down as the responsibility of ministers.

Nice try. Most people are going to roll their eyes at that.

Also, how about the Greens who turfed one of their candidates just days before an expected federal election call over allegations he made remarks deemed anti-Semitic?

CTV - Greens pull candidate for 'anti-Semitic' remarks

I thought it was the Tories who supposedly are always the screw ups.

This is called trying to surf on a wave. We got it here in Québec : Mario Dumont !

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Yeah, it's definitely possible that if people jump from the Bloc a large percentage would vote Conservative. The Liberals still have issues in Quebec and a lot of Bloc voters lean to the right wing...

That's actually what happened in the Quebec City region last elections, which was a big leap of faith considering that on many issues the Conservatives are at odds with the traditional progressive Quebec culture.

However since the last elections the Conservatives f***ed so many issues that a lot of the sympathy they had in the QC region eroded. If the Conservatives lose the QC, they lose the province.

Funny thing is, however, that no other party made any gains during that time. The NDP is absolutely absent in Quebec, the Liberals and Bloc are still "rebuilding"...

I'm guessing a couple of Conservatives will lose their seats here; but I dont expect none of the other big 4 to make any significant gains. I actually think this might be the election where another independent (like Andre Arthur) or the Green Party makes a big splash. Either way, like always the QC region should decide who wins the province.

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Yikes, I'm a Conservative but only so far. Ten to fifteen years ago I would have thrown a party to celebrate the Grits pathetic demise. However, I now fear this may hamper them for years. This is not a good thing for our democracy. I suppose the Grits can blame themselves for having the most undemocratic leadership process. Complain about the Tories all you want. They at least (as well as the NDp, Bloc and Greens) keep going with extra ballots while in the Liberal party someone like Gerard Kennedy can cross his votes over to Dion.

This foolishness made Dion leader. The foolishness of Dion MAY put the Tories in a majority.

Change your system Grits! Do it before your next leadership convention please!

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The Liberals will eventually rebound, dont worry. If '82 didnt killed them permanently I dont think anything will. It will take them a decade to recover from adscam in Québec tough. The process would be a lot quicker had they elected Ignatieff leader tough.

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First day of campaign, first dumb quote

''Alberta oil is making Québec poorer'' - Gilles Duceppe (Le pétrole de l'Alberta appauvrit le Québec)

Does he really think people are imbecile enough to believe that? Alberta's oil is the only reason the budget is still balanced for Christ sake, and that's where equalisation money comes from. And who have the biggest equalisation cheque? That's right, Québec.

So STFU and GTFO Gilles, your ignorance of basic economics is embarassing.

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Oh dayum i just turned 18 so i could finally vote, i've always told my parents to vote liberal but im not so sure anymore.. that doesnt mean i like the tories or the NDP for the fact that there are so many serious issues to fix however all parties were too busy gearing up for an election.

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First day of campaign, first dumb quote

''Alberta oil is making Québec poorer'' - Gilles Duceppe (Le pétrole de l'Alberta appauvrit le Québec)

Does he really think people are imbecile enough to believe that? Alberta's oil is the only reason the budget is still balanced for Christ sake, and that's where equalisation money comes from. And who have the biggest equalisation cheque? That's right, Québec.

So STFU and GTFO Gilles, your ignorance of basic economics is embarassing.

How far misunderstanding a quote can go ? Take the oil out of Alberta and they won't be that rich, they will have to impose a provincial tax and Quebec WILL look richer than he is now...

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How far misunderstanding a quote can go ? Take the oil out of Alberta and they won't be that rich, they will have to impose a provincial tax and Quebec WILL look richer than he is now...
The Bloc has an insignificant face right now. Like it or not JoeLassister, the Bloc and the Pequistes right now are a voice lost in this political vacumm. When Duceppe makes remarks like this, it doesn't secure the trust of the popular vote for Quebecers. Jean raises a good point. The Bloc must stay away from argumentative federal links in the federation and attack Harper directly and domestically as it relates to Quebec . That's where the vote is. Not in Alberta. The Bloc for too long have employed a blame ROC approach. I would highly suggest they bunker down and concentrate on attacking Harper and concentarting on Quebec. I thought that's who they represented after all! Edited by Athlétique.Canadien
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The Bloc has an insigificant face right now. Like it or not JoeLassister, the Bloc and the Pequistes right now are a voice lost in this political vacumm. When Duceppe makes remarks like this, it doesn't secure the trust of the popular vote for Quebecers. Jean raises a good point. The Bloc must stay away from argumentative federal links in the federation and attack Harper directly and domestically as it relates to Quebec . That's where the vote is. Not in Alberta. The Bloc for too long have employed a blame ROC approach. I would highly suggest they bunker down and concentrate on attacking Harper and concentarting on Quebec. I thought that's who they represented after all!

That is what they are doing, they said the Tories are the only opponents this year. Duceppe even said a vote for Dion is a wasted vote. The Libs are in a REALLY BAD shape here.

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The wierdest thing I never saw coming is the Conservative surge in Quebec. This might in some small way tie to Mulroney. Harper made the Nation point. That is now history. Mulroney is hated outside of La Belle Province but he is remembered as a champion to some for trying to clean up the angers that Trudeau created with the 1980 referendum (according to some) and the Charter that Levesque didn't endorse. Trudeau screwed (according to some) Levesque and Mulroney tried to make amends.

Harper and his Nation declaration might be having ripple effects thus reminding the PQ swing voters of Mulroney. Perhaps that is why rural Quebec is split on the Bloc and the C's. Duceppe must erode that vote. Bringing other jurisdictions into the argument is a waste of time right now. Bloc should stay on point of argument!

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The wierdest thing I never saw coming is the Conservative surge in Quebec. This might in some small way tie to Mulroney. Harper made the Nation point. That is now history. Mulroney is hated outside of La Belle Province but he is remembered as a champion to some for trying to clean up the angers that Trudeau created with the 1980 referendum (according to some) and the Charter that Levesque didn't endorse. Trudeau screwed (according to some) Levesque and Mulroney tried to make amends.

Harper and his Nation declaration might be having ripple effects thus reminding the PQ swing voters of Mulroney. Perhaps that is why rural Quebec is split on the Bloc and the C's. Duceppe must erode that vote. Bringing other jurisdictions into the argument is a waste of time right now. Bloc should stay on point of argument!

Rural Quebec voted Tories because of tax reduction. It is loaded with small and medium businesses in rural Québec, those who really need these cuts.

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Rural Quebec voted Tories because of tax reduction. It is loaded with small and medium businesses in rural Québec, those who really need these cuts.
Yeah, I guess it is simple moreso than I surmised. I still agree with Jean - only on "stay on point". Jurisdictions are nonsense. The Bloc is a federal party without true national representation. Disagreeing with the ROC is the PQ's job! Not the Bloc's! The Bloc must win seats. Since it is true that it is the PQ's mandate is to factor the failure of ROC, why is it that the Bloc are wasting their time outside of their jurisdiction? If they don't like Alberta oil than maybe they should run Alberta candidates. Edited by Athlétique.Canadien
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Shame about Layton. I mean, he's probably the best leader of the bunch, but there's no way I'm voting for THAT agenda.

Also, a question: How can the Greens be shut out of debates when they even have a seat in the House? I mean, wasn't it just a little while back that the former PC party was absolutely massacred leading to the rise of the Reform Party? They were still allowed in debates. *shrug*

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Shame about Layton. I mean, he's probably the best leader of the bunch, but there's no way I'm voting for THAT agenda.

Also, a question: How can the Greens be shut out of debates when they even have a seat in the House? I mean, wasn't it just a little while back that the former PC party was absolutely massacred leading to the rise of the Reform Party? They were still allowed in debates. *shrug*

I think they are shut out because their seat come from an independant elected who decided to join the Greens. Dunno much about their rules though. I would love to see May in a debate.

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Shame about Layton. I mean, he's probably the best leader of the bunch, but there's no way I'm voting for THAT agenda.

Also, a question: How can the Greens be shut out of debates when they even have a seat in the House? I mean, wasn't it just a little while back that the former PC party was absolutely massacred leading to the rise of the Reform Party? They were still allowed in debates. *shrug*

Good point! I think they'll get in so no worries there.

From time to time in this thread I'm going to give a provincial level rant based on current demograhics and issues. Today: BC.

BC is embracing the Tories? :blink: Madness. Bad timing for Dion. Gordon Capbell is presently/highly unpopular due to provincial legislation that mirrors the "Carbon tax". BC-er's might be putting Campbell and Dion in same basket. This is the only logical theory I can come up with as to why the C's are doing well in a red/socialist province. Also, my roomate and I were hashing this out and he made an interesting point that the immigrant religious social right wing might be leaning Tory. Perhaps this is the result of the C's employing the social abortion (I'm not justifying this policy, just making a possible "matter of fact" point) and social right wing strategy. Maybe the idea was to reach out to this particular demographic. If true this may also be one of the reasons British Columbians are warming to the C's.

Are there any British Columbians in the house who have other theories and facts? Discuss?

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