Who is the best?

[Wamsley01]

Just wanted opinions on who the greatest goaltender of all-time, or your lifetime is.

I based it on who I have seen, I made a quick argument for Roy in my blog.

Any thoughts?

Feedback is always appreciated.

[jetsniper]

I'm biased when I saw Roy (I have an entire wall in my room devoted to him) but the argument can be made that Hasek is better however I don't see how it can be made for Brodeur. He's always going to have the argument that he played in the trap against him along with playing behind Scott Stevens, arguably the best defensive d-man to ever play the game.

Roy has to be the biggest clutch player in the history of the NHL IMO. Even ignoring his runs with the Habs (which are obviously more impressive then the ones with my beloved Avs) he never wilted under pressure. I remember the gaffe he made in Game 4 against the Devils and any other goalie never would've been able to recover from that. However Roy managed to put on a clinic in Games 6 and 7 and completely outshined Brodeur.

Yeah, Brodeur will get the all-time wins record (I was looking at those stats last night, was surprised to see Belfour and Cujo have passed Sawchuck as well) but he'll be doing it in more games played. Also compare the number of playoff wins between the two goalies, it's not even close. 151 to 92 is the count, I think.

I' wish I could throw Terry Sawchuk into the argument as well but I haven't seen many of his games. Most of the argument for him is based off his numbers (which considering the era he played in is extremely impressive)

[CerebusClone]

I think it depends on how you formulate the question. Personally, I think the best and most dominant goaltender of all-time is Dominik Hasek, who has almost been in a class of his own throughout his NHL career. Even with other greats such as Brodeur, Roy, and Belfour on the top of their game, Hasek was still coming out on top. His 6 Vezina trophies on such a short career are absolutely amazing.

However, if you’re looking for the greatest goaltender of all-time, then I would have to say Patrick Roy. As dominant as Hasek was, Patrick Roy’s career has been far longer and greater while perhaps being the best money player of all time.

Had Hasek played in the NHL longer, he would probably be the almost-uncontested greatest of all-time… but Patrick Roy accomplishments over such a great career puts him over.

As for Marty Brodeur, he’s a great goaltender who also happened to be at the right place at the right time. It’s a little bit like Chris Osgood in Detroit… except that Brodeur also happens to be one of the best goaltenders in NHL history, easily in the top 10 and perhaps in the top 5.

[Wamsley01]

I think it depends on how you formulate the question. Personally, I think the best and most dominant goaltender of all-time is Dominik Hasek, who has almost been in a class of his own throughout his NHL career. Even with other greats such as Brodeur, Roy, and Belfour on the top of their game, Hasek was still coming out on top. His 6 Vezina trophies on such a short career are absolutely amazing.

However, if you’re looking for the greatest goaltender of all-time, then I would have to say Patrick Roy. As dominant as Hasek was, Patrick Roy’s career has been far longer and greater while perhaps being the best money player of all time.

Had Hasek played in the NHL longer, he would probably be the almost-uncontested greatest of all-time… but Patrick Roy accomplishments over such a great career puts him over.

As for Marty Brodeur, he’s a great goaltender who also happened to be at the right place at the right time. It’s a little bit like Chris Osgood in Detroit… except that Brodeur also happens to be one of the best goaltenders in NHL history, easily in the top 10 and perhaps in the top 5.

I agree, I should have phrased the question better. I guess I mean overall, peak, longevity, clutch, influence.

I thought Hasek was more dominant at this absolute best, but like you said, he did not have the overall career compared to those two.

The clinic he put on in the Olympics was unbelievable. Lindros looked like the only guy who was not afraid to shoot.

He had the whole "I'M ERIC LINDROS, WHO THE EFF ARE YOU?" attitude. I am not even starting on Gretzky, but I digress.

Roy did it when the Cup was on the line, and that will always hold more weight. Just like Elway/Manning were never appreciated until they won a

SuperBowl. Those Conn Smythe's are a Monster trump card on Brodeur. Also Roy won a Cup as a 160 lb 20 year old in an era where a 215 pt player

existed. He also influenced a whole generation and revolutionized the game.

Roy is the best I have ever seen.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Wamsley01

[Mils]

Two years ago, I say Roy. Now, it has to be Martin Brodeur.

Dominik Hasek was a fan and media favourite, but I still don't think he even enters the discussion becuase he won his six vezinas in a time where goal-scoring was at its lowest, and he never carried a mediocre team on his back in the post-season; His only cups were in Detroit.

Brodeur has the wins, the cups, and the numbers. After next season, this won't be close.

4 Vezinas (2 since the lockout), 4 Jennings, 2.20 career GAA, and a .914 career SV%, 538 wins, 3 Stanley Cups. Career .556 win%.

Hasek has 389 wins, 2.20 career GAA, and a .922 career SV%, and 3 cups. 6 Vezinas, 2 Harts. Career .529 win%.

Neither has a Conn Smythe trophy.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Mils

[Wamsley01]

Two years ago, I say Roy. Now, it has to be Martin Brodeur.

Dominik Hasek was a fan and media favourite, but I still don't think he even enters the discussion becuase he won his six vezinas in a time where goal-scoring was at its lowest, and he never carried a mediocre team on his back in the post-season; His only cups were in Detroit.

Brodeur has the wins, the cups, and the numbers. After next season, this won't be close.

4 Vezinas (2 since the lockout), 4 Jennings, 2.20 career GAA, and a .914 career SV%, 538 wins, 3 Stanley Cups. Career .556 win%.

Hasek has 389 wins, 2.20 career GAA, and a .922 career SV%, and 3 cups. 6 Vezinas, 2 Harts. Career .529 win%.

Neither has a Conn Smythe trophy.

Hasek carried a mediocre Sabres team to within an OT goal of Game 7 against a vastly superior Dallas Stars team.

Take a look at the 1999 Sabres roster

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues...0000331999.html

Yikes. He also had that same team in the Conference Finals the season before. So saying he never carried a mediocre

team on his back in the post season is false. I also think you added in a Cup for him. He won a Cup with Detroit in 02 and 08.

[jetsniper]

I had a humongous post replying to Mils but the friggin power surged and everything turned off. So I'll just go with this instead.

I agree, I should have phrased the question better. I guess I mean overall, peak, longevity, clutch, influence.

I thought Hasek was more dominant at this absolute best, but like you said, he did not have the overall career compared to those two.

The clinic he put on in the Olympics was unbelievable. Lindros looked like the only guy who was not afraid to shoot.

He had the whole "I'M ERIC LINDROS, WHO THE EFF ARE YOU?" attitude. I am not even starting on Gretzky, but I digress.

Don't forget there was almost 10 years between when Hasek was drafted and when he finally played in the NHL. A lot of time wasted there (and he spent his first couple years not doing much in the Blackhawks system because of Belfour)

Roy did it when the Cup was on the line, and that will always hold more weight. Just like Elway/Manning were never appreciated until they won a

SuperBowl. Those Conn Smythe's are a Monster trump card on Brodeur. Also Roy won a Cup as a 160 lb 20 year old in an era where a 215 pt player

existed. He also influenced a whole generation and revolutionized the game.

Roy is the best I have ever seen.

Yup. If you combine regular and playoff statistics, Roy blows everyone out of the water. Then you throw in the actual impact he had on the game and the margin is even bigger.

[CerebusClone]

Two years ago, I say Roy. Now, it has to be Martin Brodeur.

Dominik Hasek was a fan and media favourite, but I still don't think he even enters the discussion becuase he won his six vezinas in a time where goal-scoring was at its lowest, and he never carried a mediocre team on his back in the post-season; His only cups were in Detroit.

Brodeur has the wins, the cups, and the numbers. After next season, this won't be close.

4 Vezinas (2 since the lockout), 4 Jennings, 2.20 career GAA, and a .914 career SV%, 538 wins, 3 Stanley Cups. Career .556 win%.

Hasek has 389 wins, 2.20 career GAA, and a .922 career SV%, and 3 cups. 6 Vezinas, 2 Harts. Career .529 win%.

Neither has a Conn Smythe trophy.

It doesn't really matter how many goals were scored, Dominik Hasek won his 6 Vezinas while he was in competition with Brodeur, Roy at his prime, and other good goaltenders. Furthermore, Patrick Roy actually never won the Vezina once Hasek made his debut in the NHL, and Martin Brodeur didn't win one until Hasek first retired in 2002-03 (after that he was an aging, often-injured, less motivated shelf of his former self).

Basically, there was the Roy-era with Belfour a very close second, then the Hasek-era where he was in a class of his own, and then the Brodeur era although he's never really been the clear-cut dominant goalie (his mostly about consistency).

Also as pointed out by Wamsley01, Hasek took a mediocre Sabres team nearly to the Cup while neither Patrick Roy nor Martin Brodeur took mediocre teams to the Cup (the Canadiens were far from mediocre in those 2 years). Actually, I can't remeber a mediocre team winning the Stanley Cup, the worst I can think of was perhaps the Lightning, but they weren't that bad (there was a lack of depth, but the top players played great).

[jetsniper]

the worst I can think of was perhaps the Lightning, but they weren't that bad (there was a lack of depth, but the top players played great).

Weren't they the #1 seed in the East that year?

[CerebusClone]

Weren't they the #1 seed in the East that year?

They had a great regular season and fantastic playoffs, but when you look at the team on paper, they weren't all that impressive. I guess everything just clicked for them (like Fedotenko having a huge series against the Flyers).

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Roy is the greatest clutch goalie in history (except for his oddly losing record in Game 7s, a significant anomaly that historians will point to when challenging his claim). Roy also has ALL the mystique. This is partly because he played for the Habs instead of some BS franchise, partly because he carried teams on his back to championships twice, partly because he was the most intimidating goalie of his era by a long shot, and partly because he was larger than life.

Because I think mystique matters - that`s why Lafleur is rememberd as something legendary rather than a merely lethal offensive player - I pick Roy over Hasek by a mile, and over Brodeur too. Brodeur never had dramatic achievements like the 1986, 1993 Cup runs; he was the rock-solid backstop to a superb defensive team.

Roy is the Man of Myth. The other two are just memorable, great goalies.

[CerebusClone]

Roy is the greatest clutch goalie in history (except for his oddly losing record in Game 7s, a significant anomaly that historians will point to when challenging his claim). Roy also has ALL the mystique. This is partly because he played for the Habs instead of some BS franchise, partly because he carried teams on his back to championships twice, partly because he was the most intimidating goalie of his era by a long shot, and partly because he was larger than life.

Because I think mystique matters - that`s why Lafleur is rememberd as something legendary rather than a merely lethal offensive player - I pick Roy over Hasek by a mile, and over Brodeur too. Brodeur never had dramatic achievements like the 1986, 1993 Cup runs; he was the rock-solid backstop to a superb defensive team.

Roy is the Man of Myth. The other two are just memorable, great goalies.

This is in part what I meant when I said that Patrick Roy is the greatest goaltender in history. However I still believe that in his prime, Dominik Hasek was the most dominant goaltender in NHL history, he was a notch above everybody else even when Patrick Roy and Martin Brodeur were in their prime. His seasons with the Buffalo Sabres were simply phenomenal, and if that had been in a great hockey city like Montreal, it would without a doubt be considered as legendary.

[KoZed]

My bias toward Roy is not only because of his 3 Conn-Smythes (who is ever gonna beat that... and a goalie that is?), but also because Roy played the first decade of his career in one of the highest scoring era in the NHL history (mid 80's to 93), while Hasek played his first decade in the lowest scoring era in NHL history.

I dont think people realize how big a difference it makes. In Roy's era, everything was geared toward offense. There wasn't a whole bunch of expansion teams that diluted the talent pool and made goalies' life so easy as in Hasek's era. In Roy's era, only a handful of goalies would have GAA's under 3.00. In Hasek's era, it was the complete opposite.

For Roy to win 3 Vezinas and 4 Jennings in that era, it compares anytime with Hasek's 6 Vezinas' and 2 Harts. Roy was the first real franchise goalie. He opened the door for Brodeurs and Haseks, he's the one that proved to the rest of the hockey world that it was possible to build a team around a goalie. Without Roy's ground-breaking performances in Montreal from 85 to 93, there would be no Dominator. Also back in Roy's era, starters weren't given a heavy workload during the regular season, they weren't pushed up-front and given tons of exposure as they started getting from the mid-90's & afterwards.

Also, to put things into context, back in 88-89 Roy was having one of the best goalie seasons the NHL had seen in decades. 2.47 GAA average, 33 wins and just 5 losses and a .908 SV%. Moreover, he was also so instrumental in the Habs' successes that some people started whispering that maybe he could be *gasp* a Hart candidate! Back then, in the era when Gretzky had won the Hart 8 straight years, only broken by Mario Lemieux, to simply think of a goalie being a candidate for MVP was almost heresy. The Hart was almost going hand-in-hand with the Art-Ross. That's why Gretz got it 8 straight years, and Lemieux got it in 87-88 when he also won the Art-Ross. Ultimately, Gretz got it in 88-89 because it was his first season in LA. Believe it or not, Mario had 199 pts that year... yet Roy was also thought of as a potential MVP.

So when Hasek comes along almost 10 years later and wins the Hart for a 5th overall team, in a year where there's only 2 players with 100+ pts and 3 players with 50+ goals; and then repeats the year after in a year when there's only 1 players with 100+ pts and barely 3 players with 50+ goals; and you see Jose Theodore do the same feat just 4 years later... You realize that it was a complete different NHL than in Roy's era and that comparing the number of hardware both won just doesnt fly.

[sbhatt]

Roy did it when the Cup was on the line, and that will always hold more weight.

Roy is the best I have ever seen.

I agree wholeheartedly. My vote goes to Roy.

[Wamsley01]

All great points.

I think the hardest thing for me in assessing Roy's greatness is that I witnessed it as a fan of the Canadiens

and never dealt with the intimidation from the other end.

[CerebusClone]

I don't think it really matters how many goals were scored in each era, the dominance of a player – whatever his position is – is established in comparison with the other players in the league at those times. Patrick Roy was the best goalie in the NHL for several years, although Ed Belfour wasn’t far behind (one year the Vezina went to the eagle, the other to Roy).

But then came the Dominator in Buffalo. He set the new standards for goalie excellence, and although Patrick Roy was at his peek, Martin Brodeur emerged as a franchise goalie, and other goaltenders put up great numbers on paper, Dominik Hasek was still clearly at the very top of the NHL, and collected awards, most importantly 6 Vezina trophies in only a few years. All goalies played within the same rules and context (including Roy at the peek of his career), and Hasek was the very best.

Like I mentioned, Roy and Belfour stopped exchanging the Vezinas when Dominik Hasek joined the league… and Martin Brodeur didn’t win one until Hasek first retired. All that could prevent Hasek from winning it was a fluke rookie season by Jim Carey, and injuries in 1999-00 that limited him to 35 games.

However because Hasek played regularly in the NHL so late in his in career, and had so few prime years (he still played great after his retirement, but he was still past his prime), I don’t think he qualities to be named the greatest.

[Habsfan]

My bias toward Roy is not only because of his 3 Conn-Smythes (who is ever gonna beat that... and a goalie that is?), but also because Roy played the first decade of his career in one of the highest scoring era in the NHL history (mid 80's to 93), while Hasek played his first decade in the lowest scoring era in NHL history.

I dont think people realize how big a difference it makes. In Roy's era, everything was geared toward offense. There wasn't a whole bunch of expansion teams that diluted the talent pool and made goalies' life so easy as in Hasek's era. In Roy's era, only a handful of goalies would have GAA's under 3.00. In Hasek's era, it was the complete opposite.

For Roy to win 3 Vezinas and 4 Jennings in that era, it compares anytime with Hasek's 6 Vezinas' and 2 Harts. Roy was the first real franchise goalie. He opened the door for Brodeurs and Haseks, he's the one that proved to the rest of the hockey world that it was possible to build a team around a goalie. Without Roy's ground-breaking performances in Montreal from 85 to 93, there would be no Dominator. Also back in Roy's era, starters weren't given a heavy workload during the regular season, they weren't pushed up-front and given tons of exposure as they started getting from the mid-90's & afterwards.

Also, to put things into context, back in 88-89 Roy was having one of the best goalie seasons the NHL had seen in decades. 2.47 GAA average, 33 wins and just 5 losses and a .908 SV%. Moreover, he was also so instrumental in the Habs' successes that some people started whispering that maybe he could be *gasp* a Hart candidate! Back then, in the era when Gretzky had won the Hart 8 straight years, only broken by Mario Lemieux, to simply think of a goalie being a candidate for MVP was almost heresy. The Hart was almost going hand-in-hand with the Art-Ross. That's why Gretz got it 8 straight years, and Lemieux got it in 87-88 when he also won the Art-Ross. Ultimately, Gretz got it in 88-89 because it was his first season in LA. Believe it or not, Mario had 199 pts that year... yet Roy was also thought of as a potential MVP.

So when Hasek comes along almost 10 years later and wins the Hart for a 5th overall team, in a year where there's only 2 players with 100+ pts and 3 players with 50+ goals; and then repeats the year after in a year when there's only 1 players with 100+ pts and barely 3 players with 50+ goals; and you see Jose Theodore do the same feat just 4 years later... You realize that it was a complete different NHL than in Roy's era and that comparing the number of hardware both won just doesnt fly.

I was just about to say the same thing. If I'm not mistakem, the mid 80's to 1993 was THE HIGHEST scoring period in the history of the NHL. Roy started his career in a time where teams scored 400 goals a year. At a time when there were 15-20 100 point players in the League. Today,(and especially in the late 90's) we consider a team an offensive "powerhouse" because they scored 260 goals in a season. Roy used to routinely have a GAA under 3.00 when it was the norm to have a GAA above 3.50 and even 4.00.

I wonder how Brodeur's and Hasek's career numbers would look like if they started their careers in 1986 like Roy did??? I,d imagine their numbers would not be as impressive!

3 Conn Smyth Trophy's and 151 Playoffs wins says it all for me. Let's not forget that he retired relatively young. (37 years old) He could have played for another 2 seasons and would have picked up at least another 70 wins.

MY vote goes to Roy, but I must admit that Hasek was the Best goalie from 1995 to 2000. HE was dominant, it's just that his career really got started when he turned 30 years old! His career wasn't long enough to be compared to Brodeur and Roy.

As far as Brodeur is conderned...he was lucky to play in front of a Stanley Cup contending team for his entire career. Let's not forget that the Devils were known for their effective and skillful defensive squad...which always helps a goalie!

Brodeur will pass Roy's mark of 551 wins in a couple of weeks and he'll probably make it to 600 wins when he'll finally decide to retire, but I'll still consider him as the second best of all time! He never really had to carry his team on his shoulders like Roy did on 2 occasions, which explains why he doesn't have any Conn Smythe Trophy's!

Edited October 23, 2008 by Habsfan

[Habsfan]

I think the hardest thing for me in assessing Roy's greatness is that I witnessed it as a fan of the Canadiens

and never dealt with the intimidation from the other end.

I must admit that I never thought of it that way either. I can't begin to imagine the kind of intimidation the Nordiques faced in 1993 after Daniel Bouchard(ex-Nordiques Goalie, and Roy's Childhood hero) had said that the Nordiques had found Roy's weakness after winning the first 2 games of the Adams Division semi-finals. Roy shut the door after that, and the Habs went on to win 11 straight playoff games.

I can just imagine how the Kings felt after the famous Wink by Roy to Sandstrom. A feeling of helplessness!

[Wamsley01]

I must admit that I never thought of it that way either. I can't begin to imagine the kind of intimidation the Nordiques faced in 1993 after Daniel Bouchard(ex-Nordiques Goalie, and Roy's Childhood hero) had said that the Nordiques had found Roy's weakness after winning the first 2 games of the Adams Division semi-finals. Roy shut the door after that, and the Habs went on to win 11 straight playoff games.

I can just imagine how the Kings felt after the famous Wink by Roy to Sandstrom. A feeling of helplessness!

I still remember sitting on my couch wondering who the hell was possibly going to score against Hasek in the 98 shootout. That was the best and most intimidating goaltending I have ever seen. I even believe Theo had some of that intimidation factor going for him in 2002.

Roy is my favourite player of all-time, but I agree with Cerebus. I don't think he was ever as dominant as Hasek was for 3-4 years at his apex. But being the best is not about 3-4 years. It is about stepping up in the biggest moments, excelling and adjusting to different era's, influence on the game, Peers and the public annointing you the best, innovation.

Roy scores an A+ in every single one of those categories. Brodeur or Hasek cannot say the same thing.

Neither has the playoff resume, neither dominated in an offensive era, neither revolutionized the game and neither of them inspired a generation of children to want to be a superstar from the crease. How many goaltenders in the league's personal hero is Patrick Roy?

Roy is the best of the last 30 years. I am not really old enough to judge those who came before him.

[Habsfan84]

I think Hasek screwed himself over by staying around to long and starting to suck after the age factor kicked in.

Just showed that he was the luckiest goaltender to ever play.

Roy currently but Brodeur is looking pretty close.