MAK Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 does anyone else thinks that with a Russian mate with him in hamilton, PV would've stayed ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Perhaps the Canadiens organization simply has trouble integrating Russian players, getting the best out of them, and making them feel like they're part of the family. With the exception of Sergei Kostsitsyn - who actually came to North America early, and had a chance to "grow" with other kida his age at the junior level - Montreal has had all kinds of trouble recently with Russian players including young players (AK46, Perezhogin, Grabovski ...) as well as veterans (Samsonov, Kovalev who wasn't very kind to the Habs management during his infamous interview back in Russia). We can criticize Russians all we want, it remains that they are quite different from North Americans and even other Europeans; you can't use the same motivational tactics with a Russian than with a Canadian, tough love works well with Steve Bégin, but you'll lose Alex Kovalev's respect if you try the same with him. Maybe it would be in the Habs' best interest to learn about the Russian culture more so that it becomes a competive advantage for them... it can be the difference between a Grabovski and a Datsyuk, or a Malakhov and a Konstantinov. As for Valentenko, he'll just be playing in a different league. The difference mostly is that he won't be available for callups, however he'll most likely return for next training camp hoping to get a roster spot. If I'm not mistaking that's what the Leafs did with Kulemin last year (he signed a contract, but was allowed to play in Russia), just like Alexander Semin returned with the Capitals once he felt better about his situation... Valentenko could still return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Can't say this with 100% certainty since I didn't watch the full show, but apparently SRC's "La Zone" (I have a hard time focusing for more than a few minutes since I don't speak French well) discussed the Valentenko situation. Here's what I was told (by someone who does speak French) was said: - Whichever relative is sick (grandfather?), is very sick, and Valentenko is paying the medical bills. - Because the costs are so high and Valentenko's not making much in Hamilton, he approached the team about possibly playing in Russia for the season to be closer to the family and make more $$. The Habs agreed to this. The final 2 years are option years on the contract, suggesting that if the situation carries on over to next season and Valentenko doesn't make the Habs, the "loan" to Dynamo could continue. The plan is for Pavel to be back in camp for next season though, so this isn't as bad as it first seemed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowpeb Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Can't say this with 100% certainty since I didn't watch the full show, but apparently SRC's "La Zone" (I have a hard time focusing for more than a few minutes since I don't speak French well) discussed the Valentenko situation. Here's what I was told (by someone who does speak French) was said: - Whichever relative is sick (grandfather?), is very sick, and Valentenko is paying the medical bills. - Because the costs are so high and Valentenko's not making much in Hamilton, he approached the team about possibly playing in Russia for the season to be closer to the family and make more $$. The Habs agreed to this. The final 2 years are option years on the contract, suggesting that if the situation carries on over to next season and Valentenko doesn't make the Habs, the "loan" to Dynamo could continue. The plan is for Pavel to be back in camp for next season though, so this isn't as bad as it first seemed. According to the Globe and Mail the Habs have suspended Valentenko without pay and are taking the issue up with the IIHF. He made $150K this year if you include his signing bonus...which is a large sum of money considering he probably has a roommate in Hamilton and likely has a lot of his food covered. He could be sending upwards of $30,000-45,000 to Russia...which is a good amount of money in Russia right now. Perhaps no one in his family is working?? Perhaps they are leaching off the kid? Who knows... Allegedly his father had already had a "done deal" with Dynamo waiting for him when he returned home. And apparently it's a pretty sizeable deal... There was no mention in the article about a sick relative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Valentanko never wanted to leave. He was trying to support his family on what he was making in Hamilton, which was about $125,000, before taxes and I guess he couldn't do it. He was hoping to make the Canadiens but it didn't make it. So he left to go back to Russia where he got more money and doesn't have to pay taxes. Hopefully he can develop over there and come back and contribute here next year TSN is reporting this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRock Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I don't see how there could have been a deal between the Canadiens and Valentenko to let him play this season in Moscow. If there was was, they would have been an official statement released, and not just an indefinite leave of absence for family matters. He was homesick, disappointed that he didn't make the big club, or just wanted/needed the big money and now he's a defected player, ironic when you consider the history of Russian players in the mid-80s. I hope he earns millions of Medvedev's gas money and has a brilliant career. In Russia. I hope he never sees the ice for an NHL or AHL game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I also wondered about the lack of a Russian teammate in Hamilton. He had Sergei and Grabovski for most of last year, but this year was a lone wolf. Even Andrei Kostitsyn had Raitis Ivanans when he first came to Hamilton. But it definitely appears it's a family/financial issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Perhaps the City of Hamilton is so dreary these kids just can't stand to be there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Perhaps the City of Hamilton is so dreary these kids just can't stand to be there? I thought part of the logic of having a farm team in Hamilton was motivation to make the kids want to get out of there ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I don't see how there could have been a deal between the Canadiens and Valentenko to let him play this season in Moscow. If there was was, they would have been an official statement released, and not just an indefinite leave of absence for family matters. He was homesick, disappointed that he didn't make the big club, or just wanted/needed the big money and now he's a defected player, ironic when you consider the history of Russian players in the mid-80s. I hope he earns millions of Medvedev's gas money and has a brilliant career. In Russia. I hope he never sees the ice for an NHL or AHL game. Why so much animosity towards him? If he's not in the plans for this season - and Carbonneau said again there was no room for him - why should he be forced to rot in an inferior league for very little money while he can continue his development this season back in his home, for more money, and in perhaps the best league after the NHL? It's not like he's leaving the organization, he'll most likely be back next year for another shot. This is perhaps the beginning of a new trend where players who don't make the team could be sent to European clubs instead of playing in the AHL. That's what the Flames are doing with Mikael Backlund who was sent back to Sweden last month after being cut, or the Maple Laefs last season who allowed Nikolai Kulemin to play in Russia even though he had signed his entry-level contract. This is just giving more options to players, perhaps more money on the short term, but losing the opportunity to be called-up during the regular. I personally don't see a problem with players having the option to play in the pro league of their choice if they don't get a roster spot with their NHL team... teams own the rights to players, not the players themselves... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redondo Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Good for him. Personally, I think we're going to see more of these types of situations as a downside of being an organization stacked with good to great prospects. Only so many spots on the big team, and lots of kids in the wings that are NHL (or at least, as in this case KHL) material, they want to play and they're right - professional athletes' careers are too short not to cash in when you can, and these are not the times of Sam Pollock, when you can have the farm team stacked for years and years and ease everyone in as you need to, and nobody complains. As a Habs fan I hate this, because at best we lose a potential contributor, and at worst, a trade asset. But then again, honestly, where and when was he going to play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HABBER-oooooKNOWS Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 (edited) Good for him. Personally, I think we're going to see more of these types of situations as a downside of being an organization stacked with good to great prospects. Only so many spots on the big team, and lots of kids in the wings that are NHL (or at least, as in this case KHL) material, they want to play and they're right - professional athletes' careers are too short not to cash in when you can, and these are not the times of Sam Pollock, when you can have the farm team stacked for years and years and ease everyone in as you need to, and nobody complains. As a Habs fan I hate this, because at best we lose a potential contributor, and at worst, a trade asset. But then again, honestly, where and when was he going to play? In general what a waste of a draft pick! I still don't understand how he is allowed to do this after the Radulov incident. I think the NHL should just simply stop drafting Russians unless they are surely NHL ready. With the KHL starting up these players will constantly be looking for loopholes to run through if they don't get they're way. BS! On another note, as I was looking at his draft year I noticed the Bruins drafted Lucic right after we drafted Ben Maxwell, hmmmmmmmmm. Gee Trevor Timmins sure missed that one. Other than that it looks like a lame draft year past the first round anyway for all the teams. Perezohgin still stings a little more then Pavol, but this can't keep happening, IT BLOWS! Edited November 1, 2008 by HABBER-oooooKNOWS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 In general what a waste of a draft pick! I still don't understand how he is allowed to do this after the Radulov incident. I think the NHL should just simply stop drafting Russians unless they are surely NHL ready. With the KHL starting up these players will constantly be looking for loopholes to run through if they don't get they're way. BS! On another note, as I was looking at his draft year I noticed the Bruins drafted Lucic right after we drafted Ben Maxwell, hmmmmmmmmm. Gee Trevor Timmins sure missed that one. Other than that it looks like a lame draft year past the first round anyway for all the teams. Perezohgin still stings a little more then Pavol, but this can't keep happening, IT BLOWS! Perezhogin and Valentenko are totally different situations. Perezhogin's gone, Valentenko probably still has an NHL future and probably still with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 In general what a waste of a draft pick! I still don't understand how he is allowed to do this after the Radulov incident. Simple, there is still no agreement between the KHL and NHL. Perezhogin and Valentenko are totally different situations. Perezhogin's gone, Valentenko probably still has an NHL future and probably still with us. If he planned on having an NHL future, he wouldn't have left for Russia in the middle of his contract. Even if he ever wanted to come back, who would take him after this stunt? He's proven he can't be trusted to honor a contract. I'd say between Valentenko and Perezhogin, Zhog is the more likely to return to the NHL at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Simple, there is still no agreement between the KHL and NHL. If he planned on having an NHL future, he wouldn't have left for Russia in the middle of his contract. Even if he ever wanted to come back, who would take him after this stunt? He's proven he can't be trusted to honor a contract. I'd say between Valentenko and Perezhogin, Zhog is the more likely to return to the NHL at some point. We'll see what happens next, but for now I don't really see this as a player who defected to Russia, but mostly a player who'll continue his development this season in Russia where he'll make more money to support his family instead of playing for very little in the AHL. He signed with Montreal, Montreal didn't want him after training camp, so in a way why should he be forced to waste a year of his pro career for the choices of the organization (I'm not saying he deserved to stay)? Again Mikael Backlund was sent back to Sweden after failing to make the team in Calgary, this is not much different. Other Russian players under contract have also been allowed to return to Russia before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HABBER-oooooKNOWS Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Perezhogin and Valentenko are totally different situations. Perezhogin's gone, Valentenko probably still has an NHL future and probably still with us. Both are not here and ready to play for Montreal. Both don't want to be in america. Both have signed contracts in Russia, for more money, for an extended amount of time. Both are suspended, and if they even think about coming back they will resume they're careers right where they were when they left. Which is what was making them unhappy in the first place. Perezhogin and Valentenko's situation is probably more alike then you think. Add Emelin to that mix. Why you might ask? If Russians can walk away from they're NHL contracts and go play in the Russian league then why can't Emelin walk away from his team and join the Habs? If he wanted to you would think it be done.....since there is no agreement with KHL and NHL yet. Until I see Emelin here in a Habs Jersey he was a waste of a pick too......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House11 Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Both are not here and ready to play for Montreal. Both don't want to be in america. Both have signed contracts in Russia, for more money, for an extended amount of time. Both are suspended, and if they even think about coming back they will resume they're careers right where they were when they left. Which is what was making them unhappy in the first place. Perezhogin and Valentenko's situation is probably more alike then you think. Add Emelin to that mix. Why you might ask? If Russians can walk away from they're NHL contracts and go play in the Russian league then why can't Emelin walk away from his team and join the Habs? If he wanted to you would think it be done.....since there is no agreement with KHL and NHL yet. Until I see Emelin here in a Habs Jersey he was a waste of a pick too......... Perezhogin left as a free agent at the end of his contract and was never suspended .... Valentenko left in the middle of his contract ... I don't think that can be considered the same. I wouldn't want to Habs to have Emelin if he broke his contract to play here ... what would prevent him from bolting back to Russia if he didn't like it ... at least we know now that he's honoring his contracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redondo Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Until I see Emelin here in a Habs Jersey he was a waste of a pick too......... Don't forget that KHL and most of it's teams is financed by the Russian petro-rubles and nouveau-riche owners. Because of it's structure vs. the more traditional NHL, it's reasonable to expect that the global recession will hit them harder, for the same reason that they we're able to offer mad $$$ to fringe NHLers up to now. Once that happens, I think you'll see them much more open to a transfer agreement with the NHL. But for sure, teams have already started shying away from drafting Russians, especially if there's a player of similar skillset that happens to be Canadian or Swedish, and I expect the trend to continue until there's an agreement in place with the Russians. However, currently the best player in the NHL is Russian, and their school of hockey being what it is, they consistently produce some of the most talented players. I think if you totally shut that door, you do it at your own peril. Now I've never seen Emelin play, however the consensus is that he is a top-tier talent, so I'm not regretting that pick just yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Both are not here and ready to play for Montreal. Both don't want to be in america. Both have signed contracts in Russia, for more money, for an extended amount of time. Both are suspended, and if they even think about coming back they will resume they're careers right where they were when they left. Which is what was making them unhappy in the first place. Perezhogin and Valentenko's situation is probably more alike then you think. Add Emelin to that mix. Why you might ask? If Russians can walk away from they're NHL contracts and go play in the Russian league then why can't Emelin walk away from his team and join the Habs? If he wanted to you would think it be done.....since there is no agreement with KHL and NHL yet. Until I see Emelin here in a Habs Jersey he was a waste of a pick too......... No. They are totally different. For one thing, Perezhogin had already gotten a chance on an NHL team before he left, Valentenko is currently a prospect/farmer but should become NHL calibre in the future, meaning he is developing in Russia while Perezhogin is playing out his career there, at least until the Habs lose his rights. What reason does Valentenko have for not trying out for the Habs next season? His goal is still to make the Canadiens, he just wasn't good enough this year and wasn't happy/financially comfortable in Hamilton. And once again, Emelin is a totally different situation from both Valentenko and Perezhogin. You're only basis for linking the three together is to say that you hate drafting Russian hockey players because they have an alternative to the NHL. Of the three, Valentenko is the only one who went to Russia while signed to an NHL contract and you can argue that all 3 had legitimate reasons for being in Russia (financial insecurity/dying relative, misuse from the coach and being mislead by his agent). How can you blame Valentenko (and then a few other Russians who never even committed the crime you accuse them of) of walking out on his contract and then, right after, blame Emelin for not breaching his contract and running away to Canada illegally? He hasn't given up on his dreams at 21, not with Bouillon, Brisebois and Dandenault being gone next year. He'll be one of the favourites to make it next year and Emelin would probably be the favourite if he can come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HABBER-oooooKNOWS Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 (edited) Don't forget that KHL and most of it's teams is financed by the Russian petro-rubles and nouveau-riche owners. Because of it's structure vs. the more traditional NHL, it's reasonable to expect that the global recession will hit them harder, for the same reason that they we're able to offer mad $$$ to fringe NHLers up to now. Once that happens, I think you'll see them much more open to a transfer agreement with the NHL. But for sure, teams have already started shying away from drafting Russians, especially if there's a player of similar skillset that happens to be Canadian or Swedish, and I expect the trend to continue until there's an agreement in place with the Russians. However, currently the best player in the NHL is Russian, and their school of hockey being what it is, they consistently produce some of the most talented players. I think if you totally shut that door, you do it at your own peril. Now I've never seen Emelin play, however the consensus is that he is a top-tier talent, so I'm not regretting that pick just yet. Great points that I really do understand. It's a double edged sword, but I can't help feel let down and pissed. So happy that the Kostitsyn brothers made the team before they were discouraged. Edited November 1, 2008 by dlbalr Refrain from using adult references when referring to the Kostitsyn's, attempting to circumvent obscenity filter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Here's a link that has some good information (translated articles and whatnot) http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=567303&page=16 And to the poster above, they are the Kostitsyn brothers. Do not use adult references when referring to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Great points that I really do understand. It's a double edged sword, but I can't help feel let down and pissed. So happy that the Kostitsyn brothers made the team before they were discouraged. We're actually very lucky that injuries practically forced Carbonneau to give Andrei Kostsitsyn the opportunity he deserved 2 years ago - and that his little brother was also in the organization - otherwise I think we could have lost him to Russia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobRock Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Why so much animosity towards him? If he's not in the plans for this season - and Carbonneau said again there was no room for him - why should he be forced to rot in an inferior league for very little money while he can continue his development this season back in his home, for more money, and in perhaps the best league after the NHL? It's not like he's leaving the organization, he'll most likely be back next year for another shot. This is perhaps the beginning of a new trend where players who don't make the team could be sent to European clubs instead of playing in the AHL. That's what the Flames are doing with Mikael Backlund who was sent back to Sweden last month after being cut, or the Maple Laefs last season who allowed Nikolai Kulemin to play in Russia even though he had signed his entry-level contract. This is just giving more options to players, perhaps more money on the short term, but losing the opportunity to be called-up during the regular. I personally don't see a problem with players having the option to play in the pro league of their choice if they don't get a roster spot with their NHL team... teams own the rights to players, not the players themselves... The difference is that the teams you named were asked by the player to go back home and play this season. I'm not against options for players. Valentenko went home to tend to a family matter, and then signed to play with Dynamo. If the circumstances dictated to Valentenko that he stay home, why couldn't he explain the situation to Bob and ask them to let him stay for the year? It's very underhanded and dishonest in the way it was handled, when it really didn't have to be. It leads me to doubt the validity of the family emergency in the first place. I've read reports where the deal was agreed upon by his father and the team long before he even left Hamilton, perhaps as early as before the start of the NHL season. Why should he be forced to rot in an inferior league? He shouldn't, but it's not like he's 28 and been buried either. He's 21. It's called learning the game. Look at the current roster of players, and most of them have spent time in Hamilton, to their benefit and the team's. The Kostitsyns, Higgins, Komisarek, O'Byrne, Plekanec, Lapierre all played at least on year in the A, some more than one. They've played together and developed a chemistry. That's what he should be doing with the other guys in Hamilton, because some of those guys could, or would, have been his teammates in Montreal as well. As I said, I hope he makes millions of rubles at home, and he never plays an NHL game. He walked out on a valid contract, he didn't tell anyone what he was doing (Dynamo made the announcement, not the Canadiens or Valentenko) and he did it for the money, money he wasn't willing to wait for and work for over here. What's going to happen if the cash in the KHL dries up? Where's he gonna go then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark_faerie87 Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 So this is what happens when we don't have a goalie controversy to argue over. Ah, how I'd forgotten. But honestly guys, I look at it this way. We don't know the whole story, so we really can't pass judgment fairly. That said, I think it's safe to say he made a mistake. He was under contract and he refused to honour it. Big no-no. That said, he's only 21 and who knows what his financial situation was like. As others have suggested, perhaps his family was in money trouble. But regardless, he's a talented player who I think has the skills to play in the NHL some day. To wish for him to never step foot on NHL ice is not only being unfair to Valentenko (he is 21 and money can be very tempting), but also to the NHL who could make use of players of his calibre. I have nothing more to say on this matter. The rest of you, go on and prattle about this and that if you wish. But remember the voice of reason! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CerebusClone Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 The difference is that the teams you named were asked by the player to go back home and play this season. I'm not against options for players. Valentenko went home to tend to a family matter, and then signed to play with Dynamo. If the circumstances dictated to Valentenko that he stay home, why couldn't he explain the situation to Bob and ask them to let him stay for the year? It's very underhanded and dishonest in the way it was handled, when it really didn't have to be. It leads me to doubt the validity of the family emergency in the first place. I've read reports where the deal was agreed upon by his father and the team long before he even left Hamilton, perhaps as early as before the start of the NHL season. Why should he be forced to rot in an inferior league? He shouldn't, but it's not like he's 28 and been buried either. He's 21. It's called learning the game. Look at the current roster of players, and most of them have spent time in Hamilton, to their benefit and the team's. The Kostitsyns, Higgins, Komisarek, O'Byrne, Plekanec, Lapierre all played at least on year in the A, some more than one. They've played together and developed a chemistry. That's what he should be doing with the other guys in Hamilton, because some of those guys could, or would, have been his teammates in Montreal as well. As I said, I hope he makes millions of rubles at home, and he never plays an NHL game. He walked out on a valid contract, he didn't tell anyone what he was doing (Dynamo made the announcement, not the Canadiens or Valentenko) and he did it for the money, money he wasn't willing to wait for and work for over here. What's going to happen if the cash in the KHL dries up? Where's he gonna go then? I agree with you on most parts. I think it would be better for the Canadiens and the integration of Valentenko into our lineup if he finished the season in Hamilton, and the circumstances are a little shady at best. However, I don't yet see this as Valentenko walking our of his contract, more as him finishing this current season in another league than the AHL, a league that is perhaps superior and where he can make more money. From what I've read, Valentenko made sure that he had an exit-clause in his contract so that he could again attempt training camp next season, and try to make the team. If Valentenko does come back next year, I hope he does well, and becomes a strong core player for us for many years (or at least become good trade-bait); if he's not going to play in the NHL this season, I couldn't care less whether he plays in the AHL or the KHL... as long as he keeps progressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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