time for a trade ?

[MAK]

As some one pointed out, maybe it's time for Gainey to start thinking about trade

I Didn't put potential UFAs since they're not sexy for other gm right now...maybe at trade deadline but not now.

I see holes everywhere:

Lack of grit

Lack of a pure scorer

Lack of a PP shooter

nobody will go in the crease

nobody will stir shit on opponents

not mean enough on D.

not working hard enough.

Ok since it's a poll I have to say that Gorges could be a decent bait for a team that looking for an NHLer. not that I have given up on him but maybe guillaume could go. not that he's bad... he's simply useless right now.

the price would have to be tremendous in order to deal a kostitsyn.

[Colin]

This isn't a problem that needs a trade to fix. This is an internal problem. It's called, "Giving a Crap." Most of the players have to learn it. They all think they're gifted the playoffs and probably a shot at the Cup based on what they did last year. Problem is, they have to do it again. Time to buckle down and WORK.

[MAK]

This isn't a problem that needs a trade to fix. This is an internal problem. It's called, "Giving a Crap." Most of the players have to learn it. They all think they're gifted the playoffs and probably a shot at the Cup based on what they did last year. Problem is, they have to do it again. Time to buckle down and WORK.

if a key player is traded away, maybe the others will start to give a crap.

[KoZed]

This isn't a problem that needs a trade to fix. This is an internal problem. It's called, "Giving a Crap." Most of the players have to learn it. They all think they're gifted the playoffs and probably a shot at the Cup based on what they did last year. Problem is, they have to do it again. Time to buckle down and WORK.

You dont trade this early in the season when you hit your first bump. It's just patchwork. Doesnt solve the real problem which is that they accept losses too easily.

Carbo needs to do what he did last year and start scratching guys who think their spot is secured. Sergei Kostitsyn for example.

[lazy26]

This isn't a problem that needs a trade to fix. This is an internal problem. It's called, "Giving a Crap." Most of the players have to learn it. They all think they're gifted the playoffs and probably a shot at the Cup based on what they did last year. Problem is, they have to do it again. Time to buckle down and WORK.

Thank you Colin for typing exactly what I was thinking.

I think we need a better gameplan too. Too often we seem without any purpose in all the zones.

[Colin]

Thank you Colin for typing exactly what I was thinking.

I think we need a better gameplan too. Too often we seem without any purpose in all the zones.

I know there was a brilliant post in another thread about Carbo and his coaching. I've mentioned the same things before, and so have others. Here's the thing, he doesn't know how to adapt and while he's putting us into a wonderful free-wheeling style of play, we really look aimless in our own end and have for the entirety of his tenure. I get that he was a master shot blocker and has guys blocking shots all over, but when the other team is taking 100 shots a game, it's only natural some will hit our players.

There's no cohesion between the offense and defense in our own zone. We have a loose break out plan to counter with speed, but that only works when we get some control of the puck. And what do we do if we're hustled to the wall as we were tonight? Where's the plan for that?

And about this line nonsense: there's a time for patience and a time to shuffle. Leaving a line together that's done relatively well for an extended period but goes through minor slumps is fine. Why panic then? Why isn't Latendresse still playing with Koivu and Tanguay? Sure, it went on a downturn, but really, the best lines in the league play together through thick and thin for YEARS, not mere weeks. That's how REAL chemistry is born.

On the other hand, when a guy isn't working hard enough.. I'm looking directly at you Thomas Plekanec.. then a shuffle is in order.

I mean, seriously, Kovalev with Koivu and Tanguay? Two playmakers with a puck hog slash shooter. Does Carbo even think about what he does? Or did he just look at point totals and plop them together? That line just doesn't work. Not when you think about it.

Finally, does Carbo ever adapt? He seems to have one game plan and will stick with it through thick and thin regardless of what the other team is doing. For gawd's sake, someone get it through him that the league has figgered out how to short circuit the Habs (particularly the PP) by and large and it's time for tweaks!

Even more finally, this team has yet to work 60 minutes this season. Dear Mr. Carbonwater, where's the motivation? That, more than anything else, is the coach's job. Isn't it?

[MMPL]

I like our foundation. We don;t need to trade away a player because of a slump. If we do however, it would have to be for a Dman, because we are getting ripped apart back there.

[Fanpuck33]

Let's trade someone for a passing and puck control instructor.

[MMPL]

Let's trade someone for a passing and puck control instructor.

I think they pass way to much, but if you're saying for accuracay then yes, we need to work on that.

As for puck control, that and physicality and overall defense are the three things we need to improve on most IMO. Physicality won;t take long to adjust, but the other two will. And I'm not talking running guys, or creaming guys into the boards when I stress toughness, I just want them to finish checks, our D especially.

[Fat Tony]

if a key player is traded away, maybe the others will start to give a crap.

LOL, Like Theodore, Souray, Ribero, Ryder, Samsonov, Rivet? Or coaches Julien, Vigniault or Therion? This is not a new problem...it's being gong much of this decade...maybe more! The morale/work ethic problem has come up every season...so either it's one (or more) of the long timers on the team or it's a figment of our imagination.

Since 2003, here's the players that have been here since I can remember the same problems...Koivu, Kovalev, Markov, Begin, Boulion, Komiserik, Plekanec, Higgins (Brisebois was traded then returned). If it really is a morale issue, you can kinda narrow it down seeing as the other alleged "trouble makers" have been traded but the same problems remain. What scares me is the influence Kovalev has on all the young Russian players...when he goes in the tank, many of the other Russians seem to go into the tank. I may be way off base here, I actually think Kovy ranks in the top 3 when it comes to sheer talent in NHL history...but this is not even close to the first time I've had the nagging feeling that his work ethic and influence were questionable. I hope I'm dead wrong and I'm not pointing fingers...just sharing a nagging concern of mine that seems to pop up EVERY season. Of course the other prime suspect is always Koivu...I hope both of these trains of thought are 100% wrong as they are both such awesome players when they're on.

There have been multiple accusations of cliques within the team and a whole slew of suspects have been dispatched one way or the other...yet the same problems seem to come up EVERY season. Just makes me scratch my head a bit...

For the record, I still believe in this team 100% and think this will be a season that will make us forget many recent seasons. If these problems need to raise their ugly head...I'd rather it get sorted out in the first 20 games!!!

[markierung]

I like our foundation. We don;t need to trade away a player because of a slump. If we do however, it would have to be for a Dman, because we are getting ripped apart back there.

Let's not forget that we're forced to give big minutes to Breezer and or O'byrne now that Komisarek is hurt

[Dutch_Habs_Fan]

I also think its an attitude problem, and not the lack of some kind of player. We have a great talented group, and i dont think you can change the attitude of a group with a trade...

This is the first time i doubt Koivu....i never thought i would have said this, but as a captain you need to get a grip of your boys (yes Guy also) Fire em all up!! I think over the years we never had a real hard working group (as i can recall), just teams riding on talent (though we had a lot of without talent in the past 10 years)

Please say im not right on the Koivu thing!

[sbhatt]

This is the first time i doubt Koivu....i never thought i would have said this, but as a captain you need to get a grip of your boys......Fire em all up!!

Please say im not right on the Koivu thing!

I'm no fan of Saku Koivu, but I hope you're wrong also...because there just aren't many great leaders that teams are willing to part with in a trade. So unless we can use a time machine to go back to the early nineties and grab Mark Messier in his leadership prime, we're going to have to go with what we've got right now.

Edited November 19, 2008 by sbhatt

[saskhab]

I'd rather subtract than add at this point.

[Chris]

Yep, make some trades. Kovalev for starters. Maybe O'Byrne, Higgins , Pleks, Subban and a 2nd for Boumeester and Horton. (dreaming again).

They need to get soem North South power players on D and forward.

[johnnyhasbeen]

It is time for the captain/coach to step up or step aside. I have said it over the years, if you can't lead the team don't wear the "C" .

It is the role of the captain and coaches to elevate the team in these situations.

Get this team in order now or bring in Scotty B and a d-man for the current "C".

He says knowing the wrathe he will bring on himself.

The can of worms is now open!

[KoZed]

This is the first time i doubt Koivu....i never thought i would have said this, but as a captain you need to get a grip of your boys (yes Guy also) Fire em all up!! I think over the years we never had a real hard working group (as i can recall), just teams riding on talent (though we had a lot of without talent in the past 10 years)

Please say im not right on the Koivu thing!

Ha!

I've started to doubt Koivu's leadership a while ago. Remember when we'd have prolonged slumps in December/January seemingly every season? That was a time when the captain needed to take charge and lead and it never happened or always took too long. Wasnt it 2 years ago when Carbo had to speak out and say "back when I was captain, I'd have called a team meeting a long time ago" because Saku wasnt doing anything?

Koivu can be a great player and a greater inspiration... when things go well. When things turn sour, he's usually nowhere to be seen. Maybe he's been through so much crap, his tolerance threshold is too high for him to feel a sense of emergency and shake guys up when they suck.

Like I mentionned earlier, we could use more guys with Komisarek's competitive nature. Komo doesnt wait weeks when the team struggle to do something about it. He hates to lose and does something right there and then in the game.

[markierung]

Guys....you're acting like we've lost 10 straight and have a big chance of missing the playoffs. Chill out. Koivu has played really well. All the leadership in the world isn't going to help the transition from defense to offense and it isn't going to improve the team's defensive system.

[lazy26]

It's pretty baseless to criticize a player's leadership unless you're actually there in the dressing room.

[saskhab]

Guys....you're acting like we've lost 10 straight and have a big chance of missing the playoffs. Chill out. Koivu has played really well. All the leadership in the world isn't going to help the transition from defense to offense and it isn't going to improve the team's defensive system.

Yep. It's not leadership that's lacking, and it's not talent that's lacking. It's fundamentals.

If I were Carbo, I'd ditch his 4 lines get at least 11 minutes method and really start messing up the ice time distribution. The 4th lines have been doing their job? Make them one of 3 regular lines. Try and build 2 successful scoring lines before we try and spread things out and have 3.

Rolling 4 lines is the ideal situation, but these aren't ideal circumstances. Reward positive behaviour, punish negative. Keep things simple. If Chris Higgins is buzzing and creating chances, play him 22+ minutes. If Robert Lang is invisible, play him 8. Quit trying to get everyone going at once. Work on getting 9 of 12 going the way you want them to, and then work on the final 3.

[KEEP26]

i agree It's not leadership that's lacking,i think the guys are making to many passes, and not taking good shots, i wouldnt mind getting a D-man thats as more experience and leadership to help out some of the young guys..but our biggest problam is our best guys are not scoring and thats Kovalev,Pleks, ect....we need these guys to get it going and when this happens we well start winning...i hope its sooner then later

Koivu....bleeds :hlogo: so i think the guys on here should keep the faith..GO HABS GO..

[markierung]

Yep. It's not leadership that's lacking, and it's not talent that's lacking. It's fundamentals.

If I were Carbo, I'd ditch his 4 lines get at least 11 minutes method and really start messing up the ice time distribution. The 4th lines have been doing their job? Make them one of 3 regular lines. Try and build 2 successful scoring lines before we try and spread things out and have 3.

Rolling 4 lines is the ideal situation, but these aren't ideal circumstances. Reward positive behaviour, punish negative. Keep things simple. If Chris Higgins is buzzing and creating chances, play him 22+ minutes. If Robert Lang is invisible, play him 8. Quit trying to get everyone going at once. Work on getting 9 of 12 going the way you want them to, and then work on the final 3.

Exactly, also, the forwards need to stop expecting these great passes from the Dmen. Aside from Markov and sometimes Hammer, we don't have a great puck mover, they need to play closer to the dmen and we need to make more quick short passes instead of expecting the 1 pass that allows a forward to carry it through the offensive zone

[CerebusClone]

Yep. It's not leadership that's lacking, and it's not talent that's lacking. It's fundamentals.

If I were Carbo, I'd ditch his 4 lines get at least 11 minutes method and really start messing up the ice time distribution. The 4th lines have been doing their job? Make them one of 3 regular lines. Try and build 2 successful scoring lines before we try and spread things out and have 3.

Rolling 4 lines is the ideal situation, but these aren't ideal circumstances. Reward positive behaviour, punish negative. Keep things simple. If Chris Higgins is buzzing and creating chances, play him 22+ minutes. If Robert Lang is invisible, play him 8. Quit trying to get everyone going at once. Work on getting 9 of 12 going the way you want them to, and then work on the final 3.

The role of the 4th line is to be a non-factor in games? I agree you can't expect much offense out of Begin and Dandeneault, but to reward them for doing nothing more than the other three lines is pointless in my opinion. At least there's always a good chance the other lines will score a goal with all their talent, but you'll need a really lucky break to see the 4th line put one behind the net.

If our forth line was Lapierre-Chipchura and either Kostopoulos or Laraque, then maybe you could play them a little more since there's some talent there, but there was no point to increase the ice-time of Begin and Dandeneault last night when we were trailing by one goal. I think a better idea would have been to put Guillaume Latendresse on a scoring line since he played well, but was useless with some skilled players around him.

[Colin]

It's a typical fall back position: Blame Koivu. It's almost as comical as Blame Canada.

Koivu has a leadership style, yelling and screaming is not it. Co-incidentally, Yzerman's leadership style was much the same. Be quiet, work your butt off, don't scream. (Incidentally, I know the family (Yzerman's), so I know a bit of what I speak.)

Is there a leadership void? Perhaps, yes. But you can't have one leader shouldering all the responsibility. Where are the other people in the room: the voices? Higgins and Kovalev wear the 'A' as well. Well, Higgsy has played half the games and is just working into form; not a whole lot he can say yet, I think. Kovalev could be a great leader, but it's hard to call people out when you should be first on that list. Listen to what I say, not what I do. Right.

Not that a letter makes you any more or less a leader within a group - those are ostensibly for talking to the ref. Komisarek needs to open his gab even more than he assuredly does. What the team really needs, though, is that vocal leader: Souray was outspoken, we heard his rampages. Remember Weinrich? Hackett? Those guys were dressing room talkers. Any one of those three would already have burst the dressing room bubble one might think. We need a vet mouth to speak up. Shame Breezer is a quiet guy, because he'd be perfect - even has a Cup or two in his arsenal.

Mostly, though, leadership on a hockey team comes from (shock) the coach. He needs to make those hard decisions. Ride the pine for a game, Plekanec. Kovalev, you get 7 minutes and no third period. He also has to show leadership by showing confidence. Koivu, Tangs, and Lats started the season well and went into a bit of a lull. Instead of having confidence that they could break out with a few tweaks, he broke the line up. That tears apart chemistry and flow. Maybe all the line needed was a coaching session or two with one coach dedicated to helping them out of their rut. My guess is that we won't see Lats with those two any more; a real disappointment to me. Lats created space, and with confidence was a really good compliment to the skill-set of Koivu and Tangs.

How about this: you don't shoot on the powerplay, you don't get powerplay time? Or: you don't go to the net on the powerplay when that's your designated position, you no longer get powerplay time. I'll never understand why Koivu is the guy who goes to the net most (and he's not even consistent) on the team. What does that mean that one of the smallest guys is doing the dirty work? We *need* a Latendresse or Lang or maybe Higgins to sit on the goalie and use size and positioning to make said goalie's work difficult. Someone with good hands to deflect and pick out rebounds.

I mentioned in another thread about the brou-ha-ha that Kovy created a couple of years back indicating he didn't want the point on the powerplay. Well coach, show some leadership and get his ass up there. Or how about really switching things up. Komisarek, when he gets back? Go to the net. Use your frame.

How about this for leadership: no pucks at practice. You work. You do remember how to work don't you? No? Well let me teach you again. No pucks. And next time you lose, no pucks. Etc. Now go out and win. Puck pursuit, winning battles, working your butt off because everyone expects you to fail (again). Prove them wrong.

The other salient point, of course, is that this is early and it's a glitch, not a trend. Every team goes through this kind of nonsense in a season, even the Red Wings. Was it last season or the one before they weren't even in a playoff position until the 20-game mark? I can't remember off-hand. Were we really expecting to go through the year nigh-on unbeatable? Sure, you can argue it's not the losses but the nature of the losses, but any competent observer will tell you all teams go through phases where the effort diminishes. Hell, this is an 82-game schedule (plus, if you're playoff bound) and already too long a physical trial for even the most trained athlete.

Disparaging comments about soccer aside, the average player runs about 10k per game (about 90 minutes divided in two) and that distance is done in intervals. There's a train of thought that says the soccer player is one of the most honed athletes in the world (we can debate that some other time and place, I'm just making a point here). The best play less than 60 games a year, sometimes substantially less than 60 a year. Why? Because the soccer federations say that any more is too much for an athlete. Exactly what is hockey thinking? Add in the wear and tear from crunching checks and you have yourself one beaten body by the end of a season.

Patience is a virtue, moreso for the fans than anyone else in an organization. Montreal was winning games through skill alone early and it got into their head they could do it every night. They need to get back to the work ethic that put them number one last season in the East. When they figure that out, touchdown (if you'll accept the mixed metaphor). Most likely, this is the one and only fix this team needs: learn how to work again. If Carbo can figure that out and inspire them, then fait accompli, we're in the show and challenging for the Cup. If not?

If not then maybe by Christmas or the All-Star break at the latest Bob needs to look at Carbo and re-evaluate where this team is heading with this coaching.

Just a thought, anyhow.

[saskhab]

The role of the 4th line is to be a non-factor in games? I agree you can't expect much offense out of Begin and Dandeneault, but to reward them for doing nothing more than the other three lines is pointless in my opinion. At least there's always a good chance the other lines will score a goal with all their talent, but you'll need a really lucky break to see the 4th line put one behind the net.

If our forth line was Lapierre-Chipchura and either Kostopoulos or Laraque, then maybe you could play them a little more since there's some talent there, but there was no point to increase the ice-time of Begin and Dandeneault last night when we were trailing by one goal. I think a better idea would have been to put Guillaume Latendresse on a scoring line since he played well, but was useless with some skilled players around him.

The 4th line is the only one that doesn't seem to get hemmed in their own end. Sure, they can't finish, but they have a better chance of scoring with the puck in the offensive zone than even the most talented finishers do if they're consistently turning the puck over at their own blueline.

Again, it's about rewarding positive behaviour and punishing negative behaviour.