The loyalists' " I can't take O'Byrne anymore " thread

[saskhab]

I'd throw Brett Clark's name into the mix. He can play heavy minutes, provide offense, may be available...

He's not an impending UFA. If we were to go with a more permanent fixture with a comparable salary, I'd be asking Toronto about Kaberle.

[Zowpeb]

He's not an impending UFA. If we were to go with a more permanent fixture with a comparable salary, I'd be asking Toronto about Kaberle.

Clark earns $3.5M next season and Kaberle earns $4.25. I don't really consider it comparable but I guess in the world of sports $750K is sadly not a big salary difference.

Also, Clark would cost a significant amount less to acquire...IMO.

[saskhab]

Clark earns $3.5M next season and Kaberle earns $4.25. I don't really consider it comparable but I guess in the world of sports $750K is sadly not a big salary difference.

Also, Clark would cost a significant amount less to acquire...IMO.

There's good reason for that... Clark isn't work that kind of money. Kaberle is.

Might be a moot point, anyways. Burke probably isn't as willing to deal within the division like Fletcher was.

[Colin]

There's good reason for that... Clark isn't work that kind of money. Kaberle is.

Think Ron Wilson would agree?

[saskhab]

Think Ron Wilson would agree?

I think Ron Wilson is doing what the Leafs want him to... make playing for the Leafs suck for Kaberle, so that he waives his no movement clause, since that cost them Jeff Carter. With Jason Blake, they just hope he retires.

[Colin]

I think Ron Wilson is doing what the Leafs want him to... make playing for the Leafs suck for Kaberle, so that he waives his no movement clause, since that cost them Jeff Carter. With Jason Blake, they just hope he retires.

I don't think Kaberle needs Wilson's help at all. All together now: Overrated.

[Habsfan]

I think Ron Wilson is doing what the Leafs want him to... make playing for the Leafs suck for Kaberle, so that he waives his no movement clause, since that cost them Jeff Carter. With Jason Blake, they just hope he retires.

Didn't Blake sign a 5 year 20 million $ deal last year?? If that's the case, he's still got this year, plus 3 more years left to his contract! I seriously doubt he'll leave 12 million$ on the table!

[Zowpeb]

There's good reason for that... Clark isn't work that kind of money. Kaberle is.

Might be a moot point, anyways. Burke probably isn't as willing to deal within the division like Fletcher was.

Clark plays heavy minutes, has put up solid point production in recent years, blocks a lot of shots.

The Habs don't need a top pairing d-man like Kaberle...they need the level of a 2nd pairing guy and Clark could manage that very well. He can help on the PP and PK too. That kind of d-man is worth $3.5M a year...

Kaberle is underpaid, has a no-trade and would cost the Habs way too much. And I agree, I don't think they'd deal him within the division...

Clark is paid fairly to possibly being SLIGHTLY overpaid. He spent some time injured last year and hasn't put up many points so far this season...he could be had for much less and fits well with the Habs needs on D.

[BTH]

I don't think Kaberle needs Wilson's help at all. All together now: Overrated.

Maybe by some people in Toronto who consider him one of the premiere D in the league, but I wouldn't call him overrated. He's definitely worth his salary.

[Sir_Boagalott]

Hmm.

the Wild would prefer to have Brent Burns playing defence, the Minneapolis Star-Tribune indicates that Minnesota may need to deal a defenceman in order to acquire a forward, a position of great need with Gaborik out. The paper suggests that one of Kim Johnsson, Marek Zidlicky or Marc-Andre Bergeron are possibilities.

Bergeron would definitely work, he has a decent shot from the point + he's been traded several times for 3rd picks so if Bob can get him for that it would be worth it.

[Chris]

Yea, a bigger trade with the Wild could definatley help both teams. Clark? Come on, seriously, if the habs want anyone off the the Avs it's Liles. The habs need a hammer from the point.

There are some moves out there available, it depends what BG wants to give up. Watching some of the players this season the list of untouchables is growing smaller. Especially with the success of some younger players and prospects coming in. centre is still weak.

[CerebusClone]

Maybe by some people in Toronto who consider him one of the premiere D in the league, but I wouldn't call him overrated. He's definitely worth his salary.

I agree, actually I would put Tomas Kaberle and Andrei Markov in the same category. Some will prefer Markov, others Kaberle... some think they're elite, others that they are overrated... but overall they are very similar players.

[BTH]

I agree, actually I would put Tomas Kaberle and Andrei Markov in the same category. Some will prefer Markov, others Kaberle... some think they're elite, others that they are overrated... but overall they are very similar players.

They're the same type of player but I prefer Markov both offensively and defensively. The way I see it, Kaberle is the next step down from Markov.

[CerebusClone]

Yea, a bigger trade with the Wild could definatley help both teams. Clark? Come on, seriously, if the habs want anyone off the the Avs it's Liles. The habs need a hammer from the point.

There are some moves out there available, it depends what BG wants to give up. Watching some of the players this season the list of untouchables is growing smaller. Especially with the success of some younger players and prospects coming in. centre is still weak.

I still think that our solutions should come from within, actually I think that with Komisarek being injured and O'Byrne struggling for self-confidence, Carbonneau missed a great opportunity to a either Mathieu Carle (first recalled because of experience) or Yannick Weber a chance to prove themselves. There is no reason that we cannot find answer within that group of three (including O'Byrne), and if notm, only then should we think about a trade (unless an amazing opportunity comes up of course).

Unfortunately we have an ultra-conservative head coach who doesn't have the guts to take those chances, and instead we are riding veterans Patrice Brisebois and Mathieu Dandeneault, costing us precious development time for one or two kids, weakening us for the near future ( I mean later on this season), and perhaps costing us players/picks because we didn't give deserving kids a chance, and instead are forced into making a trade.

[CerebusClone]

They're the same type of player but I prefer Markov both offensively and defensively. The way I see it, Kaberle is the next step down from Markov.

Hard to tell. Until recently Kaberle would probably have been considered the best one by a great majority of people, but Markov has really made a name for himself over the last couple seasons. It's probably a matter of preference (and bias) at this point. What helps Markov is that he plays on a great team whereas Kaberle is playing with a mediocre organization that has been going nowhere for a long time, and only looked decent thanks to Mats Sundin.

[Chris]

I agree about giving a trial for Weber or Carle, but it depends on what BG wants to do. He is limited with cap space, and can only bring players up when people are injured, they still have extra D on the current roster.

If BG thinks they have a shot at the cup, he may make a deal for someone to play with Hamrlik.

When Komi does come back it doesn't make the D a whole lot better, it makes them tougher and bigger. The problems on the D is foot speed, poor passing and losing battles. Komi only helps one of those categories.

I suspect BG doesn't bring in any D from Hamilton unless they have alot of injuries, they fall apart and are out of the playoffs.

[CerebusClone]

I agree about giving a trial for Weber or Carle, but it depends on what BG wants to do. He is limited with cap space, and can only bring players up when people are injured, they still have extra D on the current roster.

If BG thinks they have a shot at the cup, he may make a deal for someone to play with Hamrlik.

When Komi does come back it doesn't make the D a whole lot better, it makes them tougher and bigger. The problems on the D is foot speed, poor passing and losing battles. Komi only helps one of those categories.

I suspect BG doesn't bring in any D from Hamilton unless they have alot of injuries, they fall apart and are out of the playoffs.

That's not entirely true, we can easily get an additional ~1.2 million (I think, his salary minus 1/3 f the season), by putting Mathieu Dandeneault on waivers (without really affecting team performance) and sending him to Hamitlon if he's not claimed. This would make it very easy for us to bring up Mathieu Carle and perhaps even Kyle Chipchura who's become a dominating player for the Bulldogs over the last few weeks.

I know... I know... it's sacrilegious here to even think of putting such a nice guy and amazing veteran such as Dandeneault on waivers.. but at some point management needs to pull their pants up, and think about the team. If guys like Kyle McLaren, Denis Gauthier, Alex Mogilny, Petr Nedved... can be sent to the AHL for the best of the organization, I don't see why Dandeenault should be an exception.

[saskhab]

I still think that our solutions should come from within, actually I think that with Komisarek being injured and O'Byrne struggling for self-confidence, Carbonneau missed a great opportunity to a either Mathieu Carle (first recalled because of experience) or Yannick Weber a chance to prove themselves. There is no reason that we cannot find answer within that group of three (including O'Byrne), and if notm, only then should we think about a trade (unless an amazing opportunity comes up of course).

Unfortunately we have an ultra-conservative head coach who doesn't have the guts to take those chances, and instead we are riding veterans Patrice Brisebois and Mathieu Dandeneault, costing us precious development time for one or two kids, weakening us for the near future ( I mean later on this season), and perhaps costing us players/picks because we didn't give deserving kids a chance, and instead are forced into making a trade.

Calling up Carle or Weber would've meant D'Agostini didn't get the call. The only realistic option is for O'Byrne to play more by your logic.

There aren't many 20/21 year old d-men out there that can step right in and play PP minutes in the NHL. I think that in itself is a reason to believe we don't have the solution from within.

Dandenault and Brisebois have been in the NHL longer than the average NHLer... it's not unfathomable to think they can do the job, especially since Dandenault is not exactly over the hill.

I honestly think our best combo of D of the current group is Markov, Komisarek, Hamrlik, Gorges, Bouillon and Dadneanult. We just don't have the magical guy that will solve all the problems, but that combo as a unit best minimizes them (Dandy for footspeed/pinching, Komi for battles).

If we run with that group, we can look for an improvement via trade later.

[simonus]

Unfortunately we have an ultra-conservative head coach who doesn't have the guts to take those chances, and instead we are riding veterans Patrice Brisebois and Mathieu Dandeneault, costing us precious development time for one or two kids, weakening us for the near future ( I mean later on this season), and perhaps costing us players/picks because we didn't give deserving kids a chance, and instead are forced into making a trade.

I might agree insofar as you are referring to Carbo keeping O'Byrne in the press box, although I think that is not completely unreasonable, but it is not Carbo's call as to whether someone gets called up from Hamilton, who that person would be, and whether a given player ought to be subjected to waivers and sent down. I'm sure that BG consults Carbo on such matters, but in the end the decision to call up Carle or Weber would rest with Gainey.

[BTH]

How will developing Weber or Carle in the NHL make us better later this season? Even with some NHL development time, Dandenault and Brisebois are far more reliable players, especially in the playoffs. None of the D in Hamilton are further ahead than O'Byrne is.

[CerebusClone]

How will developing Weber or Carle in the NHL make us better later this season? Even with some NHL development time, Dandenault and Brisebois are far more reliable players, especially in the playoffs. None of the D in Hamilton are further ahead than O'Byrne is.

It's still very early into the season, which would give us quite a bit of time to progressively integrate Matieu Carle into the lineup. He could play on the third pairing with Bouillon for now (a veteran francophone who could take him under his wing) while also getting some time on the powerplay. Between playing Dandeneault - who brings absolutely nothing to the table - 12 to 14 minutes game, I would rather use that time to develop Carle who brings an offensive element that we could use on the second powerplay unit.

Also this is Carle's second pro season, he's not fresh out of junior hockey, and he has already improved a lot since last year. At the very least this could have been a good opportunity for him to improve until Komisarek returned, and in the best case scenario, he could have made the team, and become an asset right away.

[BTH]

It really wouldn't matter. Even if we do have Carle with the Canadiens until the end of the season, Carbonneau would prefer to play veterans. Last year, he changed up the roster going into the playoffs by replacing O'byrne (and I think Lapierre or Latendresse) with the veterans like Brisebois and Smolinski. He prefers to go with his veterans in the playoffs. (but maybe that's your point)

But I think I agree with him. It would be better for O'Byrne's development to play but come playoff time I'd trust Brisebois and Dandy more than him and would rather see them playing. Usually, just about the only players on our team I find myself not trusting are the young guys and I certainly would feel safer using Begin or Kostopoulos at forward and Brisebois or Dandenault on D.

That's the main reason why I don't think we should make a trade - there isn't a single player we have that I want to lose, I like having each of those veterans around. The only thing I would use is bait is O'Byrne but really, I think more highly of him than most people seem to.

[saskhab]

I don't fully remember, but usually Latendresse played in the playoffs last year, and Lapierre played all the time. Usually the 4th line was Latendresse-Lapierre-Dandenault, and then Streit got moved back to forward when Komisarek got healthy and played some time there. Also, Sergei Kostitsyn and Higgins played 2nd line C while Koivu was out for the first 5 games.

Dandenault and Ryder were the two most common scratches, with Guillaume I think sitting out a little. O'Byrne was definitely benched in favour of Brisebois. But there were a couple injuries that made the lineup a bit complex... I think Streit missed a game or two as well.

[BTH]

Our fourth line was someone with Smolinski and Kostopoulos - I think it was Begin or Dandenault but that line was doing amazing and stuck together, I think, throughout both rounds. I remember that our starting line-up for Game 1 vs Boston we benched O'Byrne in favor of Brisebois and then a young forward in favour of Smolinski. I'm assuming Lapierre because he plays centre but maybe not. Ah... it may have been Grabovski. I know he made changes to our Game 82 winning roster which he doesn't usually do, in order to play some extra vets.

[saskhab]

Our fourth line was someone with Smolinski and Kostopoulos - I think it was Begin or Dandenault but that line was doing amazing and stuck together, I think, throughout both rounds. I remember that our starting line-up for Game 1 vs Boston we benched O'Byrne in favor of Brisebois and then a young forward in favour of Smolinski. I'm assuming Lapierre because he plays centre but maybe not. Ah... it may have been Grabovski. I know he made changes to our Game 82 winning roster which he doesn't usually do, in order to play some extra vets.

Stewart also played in Game 82.