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Roster without UFAs?


CerebusClone

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This team doesn't have 3 or 4 years to wait.

First off their plan is to play for the Stanley Cup this year.

Second starting next year this team will be busted up becuase of the salary cap, and will rapidly decline starting 2010/11....when the economic crisis catches up witht he salaray cap

Actually I think the Canadiens are in a great position for next season. Even without signing any of our upcoming UFA we still have a full lineup filled with some good, young, and talented players, and almost all of them would have had some NHL experience by then.

It would like a little bit like this:

Pacioretty-Plekanec-A.Kostsitsyn

S.Kostsitsyn-Maxwell-Latendresse

Higgins-Chipchura-D'Agostini

Stewart-Lapierre-Laraque

Markov-Gorges

Hamrlik-Weber

(Emelin/Carle/Valentenko)-O'Byrne

Price

Halak

Now unless some of those players emerge as strong leaders over the next few months, this is not quite a serious Cup contender, but still a fairly good and competitve team. The best news is that even after signing our RFAs, I estimate that this lineup would cost us about 37 millions, giving us plenty of cap space to add some quality depth/reserve players as well as a couple of good veterans to make us a legitimate contender.

Thank you big-name UFAs for rejecting all our offers!!

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Actually I think the Canadiens are in a great position for next season. Even without signing any of our upcoming UFA we still have a full lineup filled with some good, young, and talented players, and almost all of them would have had some NHL experience by then.

It would like a little bit like this:

Pacioretty-Plekanec-A.Kostsitsyn

S.Kostsitsyn-Maxwell-Latendresse

Higgins-Chipchura-D'Agostini

Stewart-Lapierre-Laraque

Markov-Gorges

Hamrlik-Weber

(Emelin/Carle/Valentenko)-O'Byrne

Price

Halak

Now unless some of those players emerge as strong leaders over the next few months, this is not quite a serious Cup contender, but still a fairly good and competitve team. The best news is that even after signing our RFAs, I estimate that this lineup would cost us about 37 millions, giving us plenty of cap space to add some quality depth/reserve players as well as a couple of good veterans to make us a legitimate contender.

Thank you big-name UFAs for rejecting all our offers!!

Interesting, but the lineup you would quite likely be a total asnd unmitigated disaster, anything but a "good and competitive team." You list one proven NHL centre (and he has bagged a grand total of 3 points in his last 18 games, so I use "proven" advisedly) and a grand total of three wingers who have done anything in the NHL (Higgins, Laraque (!), A. Kostytsin). And you have only three NHL defenceman, one of which is probably a 5th defenceman (Gorges).

That's a bona-fide bottom feeding team.

The good news is that Gainey WILL re-sign most of our key RFAs (Koivu, Komisarek), etc., so in terms of the big picture, I agree with you; while this year's team IS built to win now, it's not as though Gainey has gambled the farm on a Cup run this season. We will have lots and lots of assets to remain a competitive-to-elite team next year. But only if we do re-sign a goodly chunk of our UFAs/RFAs.

The point? This is not an all-or-nothing year by any means. Gainey is far too good a GM to do anything like that.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber
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I think Koivu can sign if he wants. BG will leave it up to him. Komi is a no brainier. Tanguay is interesting, playing well, a little streaky. Great playmaker.

I don't think they need to resign anyone else. Know one else (UFA) has proved they are a must have player.

The habs need a true sniper, there are a few out there.

Well, we're off topic, but I would say we need to re-sign the following or risk taking a substantial step backward:

UFAs

-Komisarek

-Koivu

-(probably) Tanguay.

RFAs

-Latendresse

-Plekanec

-Higgins

Which means we could release the following:

UFAs

-Begin

-Brisebois

-Bouillon

-Dandeneault

-Kostopolous

-Kovalev

-Lang

Having said that, we should certainly try to sign some of the guys on the last list. For instance, Kostopolous is a good fit and a useful player who won't cost much; we don't desperately need to re-sign him but he should be re-signed. And probably will.

You might want to keep either Bouillon or Dandy around if they can be signed affordably; they're both good utility players who have been around a long time and bring specific attributes.

I hate to lose Begin, too, but we probably need to clear up roster room for guys like Laps and Chipchura. He should go.

Kovalev and Lang are trickier. They are both aging players, but still good enough to command weighty contracts. These will probably be Gainey's toughest decisions, assuming he has any dough left to play around with. I've maintained pretty consistently that Kovalev will likely be released, though...

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber
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Interesting, but the lineup you would quite likely be a total asnd unmitigated disaster, anything but a "good and competitive team." You list one proven NHL centre (and he has bagged a grand total of 3 points in his last 18 games, so I use "proven" advisedly) and a grand total of three wingers who have done anything in the NHL (Higgins, Laraque (!), A. Kostytsin). And you have only three NHL defenceman, one of which is probably a 5th defenceman (Gorges).

That's a bona-fide bottom feeder.

The good news is that Gainey WILL re-sign most of our key RFAs (Koivu, Komisarek), etc., so in terms of the big picture, I agree with you; while this year's team IS built to win now, it's not as though Gainey has gambled the farm on a Cup run this season. We will have lots and lots of assets to remain a competitive-to-elite team next year. But only if we do re-sign a goodly chunk of our UFAs/RFAs.

The point? This is not an all-or-nothing year by any means. Gainey is far too good a GM to do anything like that.

I disagree that this roster would be a bottom feeder - as a matter unless no one steps up (always a possibility with so much youth) I think they should qualify for the playoffs - however I do agree with your general point that this is not the team we should go to war with. My point was that the Canadiens will have a strong base with a lot of room to maneuver, therefore Bob Gainey will be in a fairly good situation (including the fact that we'll have good young players and procpects in case we want to make a significant trade). If you add a couple proven leaders in that group, we become contenders.

We don't need to resign anyone besides Mike Komisarek. That doesn't mean they don't need to be replaced, but none of Kovalev, Tanguay, Koivu or the others are bringing strong tangibles/intangibles we cannot live without.

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Well, we're off topic, but I would say we need to re-sign the following or risk taking a substantial step backward:

UFAs

-Komisarek

-Koivu

-(probably) Tanguay.

RFAs

-Latendresse

-Plekanec

-Higgins

Which means we could release the following:

UFAs

-Begin

-Brisebois

-Bouillon

-Dandeneault

-Kostopolous

-Kovalev

-Lang

Having said that, we should certainly try to sign some of the guys on the last list. For instance, Kostopolous is a good fit and a useful player who won't cost much; we don't desperately need to re-sign him but he should be re-signed. And probably will.

You might want to keep either Bouillon or Dandy around if they can be signed affordably; they're both good utility players who have been around a long time and bring specific attributes.

I hate to lose Begin, too, but we probably need to clear up roster room for guys like Laps and Chipchura. He should go.

Kovalev and Lang are trickier. They are both aging players, but still good enough to command weighty contracts. These will probably be Gainey's toughest decisions, assuming he has any dough left to play around with. I've maintained pretty consistently that Kovalev will likely be released, though...

We're of a very similar mind on this one, CC. I agree with the top 3 UFA's, the RFA's (though you should add D'Agostini, Chipchura, and Stewart to that list as they'll be in the picture as well, particularily D'Ago and Chip), and the idea that others not in the top 3 will get individual consideration for varying roles going forward.

As the season progresses, and O'Byrne's struggles linger, re-signing Bouillon becomes a more likely scenario. If the team feels insecure about O'Byrne, they may want to keep a veteran presence like Bouillon around for security reasons, while breaking in a different rookie at the same time (be it Emelin, Carle, Subban, McDonagh, Fischer or Weber). Going without confidence at both the 5 and 6 D spots probably isn't a good idea. If not Bouillon, then someone else would have to be brought in from outside the organization, IMO.

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As the season progresses, and O'Byrne's struggles linger, re-signing Bouillon becomes a more likely scenario. If the team feels insecure about O'Byrne, they may want to keep a veteran presence like Bouillon around for security reasons, while breaking in a different rookie at the same time (be it Emelin, Carle, Subban, McDonagh, Fischer or Weber). Going without confidence at both the 5 and 6 D spots probably isn't a good idea. If not Bouillon, then someone else would have to be brought in from outside the organization, IMO.

The problem with this is that Francis Bouillon is... Francis Bouillon. A hard working fan-favourite who's been in Montreal for quite some time. If we resign Bouillon, he won't be a reserve defenseman, and Carbonneau will end up playing him 70+ games.

The Canadiens, assuming we resign Komisarek, will have four solid proven regulars in Markok, Komisarek, Hamrlik, and Gorges. I think this is enough to break-in some younger players, including Ryan O'Byrne who despite his struggles this season has the tools to be at least a solid #5 or #6. Then we'll have Carle, Emelin, Weber, and Valentenko all with pro experience, and McDonagh, Subban, Fischer, Stejskal, and a couple more coming in gradually over the next 2-3 seasons.

I agree we'll need to find at least one veteran defenseman who will accept the role of 7th defenseman, but I don't think it should be either Bouillon or Dandeneault (once again playing a lot this season while guys like Chipchura are wasting time in the minors). Besides I think these guys will be looking for a top 6 position, at least Bouillon anyway, both have been complaining when scratched from the lineup (which is ok, and why we need someone else). There are plenty of Brisebois and Todd Simpson like players out there who are just happy to be in the NHL with a winning team.

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I'd WANT a vet that plays everynight at this point. I wouldn't want a Brisebois... I'd want a Bouillon. If we go with two unproven D as our 5 and 6, I guess Hamrlik and Gorges would each get one. Hamrlik-O'Byrne and Emelin-Gorges in a best case scenario, with a Brisebois type 7th again.

We'll see. I thought we should've let Bouillon walk in 2006 because I thought our roster was too bottom heavy on D. Next year, we'll be a top heavy D if Komi is back. I don't know where the happy medium is... I guess we'll see where O'Byrne is at by year's end.

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I'd WANT a vet that plays everynight at this point. I wouldn't want a Brisebois... I'd want a Bouillon. If we go with two unproven D as our 5 and 6, I guess Hamrlik and Gorges would each get one. Hamrlik-O'Byrne and Emelin-Gorges in a best case scenario, with a Brisebois type 7th again.

We'll see. I thought we should've let Bouillon walk in 2006 because I thought our roster was too bottom heavy on D. Next year, we'll be a top heavy D if Komi is back. I don't know where the happy medium is... I guess we'll see where O'Byrne is at by year's end.

Ideally the starting defense should look like this next season:

Markov-Komisarek

Hamrlik-O'Byrne

Gorges-(Weber/Carle)

However that's only assuming Ryan O'Byrne gets back on track, and keeps moving forward from that point. Otherwise a deal should be made unless we feel that both Carle and Weber are NHL-ready, however I don't think the top 4 (including Gorges) is strong enough to take that risk.

If we resign Bouillon, it should only be for one season to provide some stability... but I would expect him to want at least 3 years, and I'm sure he could get such a deal elsewhere.

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Ideally the starting defense should look like this next season:

Markov-Komisarek

Hamrlik-O'Byrne

Gorges-(Weber/Carle)

However that's only assuming Ryan O'Byrne gets back on track, and keeps moving forward from that point. Otherwise a deal should be made unless we feel that both Carle and Weber are NHL-ready, however I don't think the top 4 (including Gorges) is strong enough to take that risk.

If we resign Bouillon, it should only be for one season to provide some stability... but I would expect him to want at least 3 years, and I'm sure he could get such a deal elsewhere.

I kind of like this thinking, except I dont think O'Byrne will be back.

Gainey for sure will be upping the D next year, so I expect a good FA coming in for that 4th spot.

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One thing is for certain, Bob NEEDS to SIgn Komisarek ASAP!!! The Longer he waits, the more it'll cost us!

We all saw the stability and the Power/Force Komisarek brings to our defensive core. Without him, we are somewhat weak(in terms of toughness) back there. With him in the line-up, we are respectable!

Give him 30 million over 6 years! See what his agent says!

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One thing is for certain, Bob NEEDS to SIgn Komisarek ASAP!!! The Longer he waits, the more it'll cost us!

We all saw the stability and the Power/Force Komisarek brings to our defensive core. Without him, we are somewhat weak(in terms of toughness) back there. With him in the line-up, we are respectable!

Give him 30 million over 6 years! See what his agent says!

Agreed - Komisarek is the only absolute Must resign on the list - but am not too worried, Gainey always

gets his main guys - plus Mike shows he really likes playing in Montreal.

I don't think there will be a team in the league with more Cap space than the Habs next year.

With the financial downturn - this will turn out to be a Big Win Win for Montreal.

They will be able to smartly shop for some real good Free Agents for Good prices -

because other teams will have their Payrolls already tied up -

so Gainey and his staff will be able to snoop in and get some real steals !

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Also watch out for J.T. Wyman

He will challenge for a spot next year, he is playing really good 2-way hockey in Hamilton.

He might replace Dandeneault as the guy who can play both the defense and forward positions, although he's not particularly good at any. A decent depth player who can provide flexibility, while in his case not costing us nearly 2 million per season.

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The Bruins (the team I hate most) better hope they go far this year in the playoffs - because I don't see them staying together long.

Their Cap is already 12 million higher than Canadiens, (63 millions vs. 51 million)

Zdeno Chara $7,500,000

Marc Savard $5,000,000

Patrice Bergeron $4,750,000

Manny Fernandez $4,333,000

Glen Murray $4,150,000

Michael Ryder $4,000,000

Dennis Wideman $3,938,000

Marco Sturm $3,500,000

Tuukka Rask $3,200,000

Aaron Ward $2,500,000

Chuck Kobasew $2,333,000

But thats not their real problem, look at some of the Best Players on their team - and where they are at:

Phil Kessel $2,200,000

David Krejci $883,000

Milan Lucic $850,000

Kessel and Krecjci are Restricted Free Agents.

Lucic is signed next year - but they will need to renegotiate, no way he plays for that low salary next year.

Boston cap hit for next year $43 million

Montreal's cap hit for next year is... only $21 million

Edited by koivu
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Agreed - Komisarek is the only absolute Must resign on the list - but am not too worried, Gainey always

gets his main guys - plus Mike shows he really likes playing in Montreal.

I don't think there will be a team in the league with more Cap space than the Habs next year.

With the financial downturn - this will turn out to be a Big Win Win for Montreal.

They will be able to smartly shop for some real good Free Agents for Good prices -

because other teams will have their Payrolls already tied up -

so Gainey and his staff will be able to snoop in and get some real steals !

Unfortunately there won't be too many quality UFAs next summer, I'm talking about real offensive leaders on the ice, and not followersor "decent" players. We have plenty of depth and good players, we need guys who can make an impact, and help carry the team when we're in a bit of a slump.

My guess is that we can forget about Zetterberg, and the Sedin twins, they probably won't even enter the UFA market. We should stay away from Sundin if he's again wondering about his retirement. Niedermayer will probably retire again while Beauchemin should resign with Anaheim.

If we're lucky the best players available would be Marian Hossa, Martin Havalt (overrated in my opinion, and a bit of a gamble with his injury problems), and Jay Bouwmeester. Those are the guys who could help us, be part of this team for a few years, and are not too likely to become expendable because of young guys pushing in theit back (I'll be very happy if we have no room for either Hossa or Bouwmeester). If we want to push it there's maybe Erik Cole, we can always use a guy like that despite his struggles in Edmonton, but then again a guy like D'Agostini or Pacioretty will end up in Hamilton again.

As for the rest, Todd Bertuzzi is better off away from Montreal, Cammalleri is highly overrated and not the Carbonneau-type, I wouldn't take a risk with Johan Franzen who like everyone else is looking great in Detroit's system, Mattias Ohlund is not so good that I'd be willing to risk not giving some of the kids a chance, and the others have nothing to offer to the Canadiens.

In other words Bob Gainey may have to go through trades to acquire the type of player we need.

Edited by CerebusClone
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Habs probably have about $20 million more in cap space from most teams next year, who are in the $40 million range like Boston.

Even if Koivu-Kovalev come back - they will not get the same big contracts - because they are getting older - but mainly because other

teams have no cap space to offer them anything more. i.e. they come back to Montreal cheaper.

Good assessment of next year's list - the fact that there might not be a lot of 'quality' free agents available.

If the economy continues badly next year, I can see some teams in the States trying to 'unload' their good players just to stay alive.

Again this will be where Montreal will have big advantage - their cap space gives them the space to take on bigger salaries next year vs. most teams.

The key may be to find financially struggling small-market NHL teams with some good players they need to unload to survive.

So yes - Trades may be the way - I don't care! We just have to get Better Players to be serious about another Cup.

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Even if Koivu-Kovalev come back - they will not get the same big contracts - because they are getting older - but mainly because other

teams have no cap space to offer them anything more. i.e. they come back to Montreal cheaper.

Even if that seems to be the case, i seriously doubt we'll be able to sign Kovy or Koivu for less than 4 million$ each!

UNless they both have horrible years...

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I think some of it will depend on if they make the playoffs, how far they go in the playoffs. You can't keep resigning people who fail to bring you to the next level.

Emelin will make the team i'm sure if he is signed. I don't know what side he plays. Pairing youngsters with Hamrlik and Gorges is fine, but they will need 1 LD and 1 RD. I do know that Carle and Weber play the right side.

O'Byrne can be a 6 or 7 guy, he isn't bad, but he doesn't skate that well and doesn't bring much else to the table.

I forgot Kosto was a UFA, he should be resigned for sure.

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I think some of it will depend on if they make the playoffs, how far they go in the playoffs. You can't keep resigning people who fail to bring you to the next level.

Emelin will make the team i'm sure if he is signed. I don't know what side he plays. Pairing youngsters with Hamrlik and Gorges is fine, but they will need 1 LD and 1 RD. I do know that Carle and Weber play the right side.

O'Byrne can be a 6 or 7 guy, he isn't bad, but he doesn't skate that well and doesn't bring much else to the table.

I've been praying that Emilin will be as Kasparitis like as others as said. Man it would be nice to have two line back there with aggressive angry defense men.

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Supposidly he is a really goos skater as. Alot of people have said he is already NHL ready and wants to come over next year. Like you, i hope he is a good one.

I have seen McDonagh play many times, he'll be a really good one, he may be a year or 2 away depending on who BG signs. He is a LD. He could have a camp similar to Pacioretty did this year. Good size, great skater.

It should be interesting with all the young D talent around.

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Even if that seems to be the case, i seriously doubt we'll be able to sign Kovy or Koivu for less than 4 million$ each!

UNless they both have horrible years...

They actually might. Factor:

1. The Economic Times

2. Them both aging - how many teams will be rushing to sign 35 year-old free agents ?

3. Teams will not have Cap Space for many $4 million signings.

4. Neither is having a really stellar year this year... Unfortunately.

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Unfortunately there won't be too many quality UFAs next summer, I'm talking about real offensive leaders on the ice, and not followersor "decent" players. We have plenty of depth and good players, we need guys who can make an impact, and help carry the team when we're in a bit of a slump.

My guess is that we can forget about Zetterberg, and the Sedin twins, they probably won't even enter the UFA market. We should stay away from Sundin if he's again wondering about his retirement. Niedermayer will probably retire again while Beauchemin should resign with Anaheim.

If we're lucky the best players available would be Marian Hossa, Martin Havalt (overrated in my opinion, and a bit of a gamble with his injury problems), and Jay Bouwmeester. Those are the guys who could help us, be part of this team for a few years, and are not too likely to become expendable because of young guys pushing in theit back (I'll be very happy if we have no room for either Hossa or Bouwmeester). If we want to push it there's maybe Erik Cole, we can always use a guy like that despite his struggles in Edmonton, but then again a guy like D'Agostini or Pacioretty will end up in Hamilton again.

As for the rest, Todd Bertuzzi is better off away from Montreal, Cammalleri is highly overrated and not the Carbonneau-type, I wouldn't take a risk with Johan Franzen who like everyone else is looking great in Detroit's system, Mattias Ohlund is that so good that I'm willing to risk not giving some of the kids a chance, and the others have nothing to offer to the Canadiens.

In other words Bob Gainey may have to go through trades to acquire the type of player we need.

Yeah, the lack of high-powered UFAs, combined with our fairly weak track record of attracting such UFAs, is one major reason why we should be thinking in terms of re-signing the 'core' players on our list of impending free agents. I like CC's optimism about raw rookies, but the fact is - despite the fantasies of some people on this board - very few players can step into the NHL and overnight be the kind of solid performer you need in order to have a playoff-calibre team. Look at the struggles of the Kostystins this season - and those are two real blue-chip young players - not to mention O'Byrne, or Latendresse, Lapierre, Perezhogin, etc.. Even Komisarek...these are all guys who looked great when they first game up and were highly-touted as prospects. Yet, with the exception of Komi, they're still figuring it out at this level, or, in Perezhogin's case, have dropped out of the league. It generally takes years to figure it all out. In short, the Carey Prices of the world are the exception, not the rule.

Therefore, we need established players, and we should prioritize the re-signing of our existing core.

As for Bouillon, I'm actually not sure why everyone rates him ahead of Dandeneault...but the advantage of these guys is that they know the town and the organization and (presumably) have an established chemistry with the team. I agree that, if they refuse to accept a reserve role, they shouldn't be re-signed. But IF they are willing to sign affordably and to play that role, then I'd sign them before I'd sign a similar player from outside. :hlogo:

Oh yes, one last thing. I don't know why we haven't heard any rumours about Eric Cole. He has been a disaster in Edmonton but would surely look pretty good in a Habs' jersey...Bob? You listening? :B)

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber
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I don't think there will be a team in the league with more Cap space than the Habs next year.

With the financial downturn - this will turn out to be a Big Win Win for Montreal.

They will be able to smartly shop for some real good Free Agents for Good prices -

because other teams will have their Payrolls already tied up -

I recently read an article about that and you are absolutely right. The Habs have the least amount of players signed for the least amount of money so they definitely will have the most cap space out of any team. Also like you hinted at the league revenue with the recession we are in right now is projected to actually drop next year. The Habs will have the most cap space and the UFA's wont be able to command the huge salaries in which Bob refused to pay out the last 2 years. The Habs should be in great shape because teams wont be able to make offers like Bob will be able to so if there are any bidding wars on players Bob wants he should be able to win them this time.

M-A Bergeron is a UFA next year and I bet Bob could sign him for a decent fairly low contract so I'm not sure if Dandy or Cube will be back. Paccioretty and D'Ags could both possibly be 30+ G scorers so even without any of the Habs UFA F's they could be in really good shape. Not to mention that playing more young F prospects will save even more cap space so Bob could probably target the best UFA Dman thats available for 7+ mil and actually get him.

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I think it's been stated before that Bob is only interested in signing people in the off-season. Koivu was interviewed earlier this season and stated his eagerness to resign here, but hasn't heard from Bob and doesn't expect to until after the season. I think the underlying message was that Koivu was stressed about what that could mean.

While I do respect this kind of GMing, I think it's cost us in the past - Streit for $2M last Jan/Feb, for instance. I'd like to see Bob loosen up at least a little for those he fully intends to keep. Starting with Komi at the very least, and Koivu if he's willing to sign a hometown discount as well.

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Yeah, the lack of high-powered UFAs, combined with our fairly weak track record of attracting such UFAs, is one major reason why we should be thinking in terms of re-signing the 'core' players on our list of impending free agents. I like CC's optimism about raw rookies, but the fact is - despite the fantasies of some people on this board - very few players can step into the NHL and overnight be the kind of solid performer you need in order to have a playoff-calibre team. Look at the struggles of the Kostystins this season - and those are two real blue-chip young players - not to mention O'Byrne, or Latendresse, Lapierre, Perezhogin, etc.. Even Komisarek...these are all guys who looked great when they first game up and were highly-touted as prospects. Yet, with the exception of Komi, they're still figuring it out at this level, or, in Perezhogin's case, have dropped out of the league. It generally takes years to figure it all out. In short, the Carey Prices of the world are the exception, not the rule.

Again I never said that's the lineup we should start the next season with, my point was simply that we have a solid, relatively cheap base that will give us a lot of room to maneuver. Also I don't think that we should resign players just because we may not find any good UFAs to replace them, and my opinion any such deal would have to make sense for us. I don't want to see Gainey waste all that cap room to bring back players that will slow us down over the next few years. When I look at how this team has plated since the lockout, I'm not convinced we should go forward with Koivu and Kovalev as our offensive leaders...

If we can't find anything, I would rather Gainey wait for trade opportunities over the summer and during the reguular season. There's always a few of those every season, heck if we're extremely lucky perhaps we could pull a Thornton-like steal with a deal for Lecavalier, who knows. In the meantime we could always add one or two decent veterans with 1-year contracts, just not to put too much pressure on our young players.

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