Colin Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) Here's the thing about Koivu from my perspective. First, he's returning from injury and necessarily his game won't be 100%. I don't think we should trade him or get rid of him, not at all. However, he is aging and his contract could potentially become an issue if the team isn't careful. I think he should be retained at a reasonable rate ($3M give or take per) and set out as the second line centre, no questions asked. Regardless of what some say, he's a battler, gives his all more often than virtually anyone, and is a playoff performer. When he's at his best is when the games mean the most. I do think, however, that we need to de-emphasize Koivu. By this I don't mean stripping the captaincy, however I do feel that he needs better support in the locker room. It's fine to lead by example. Yzerman led by example. Even if you don't dominate, as KoZed insists, you can still be an excellent leader. However what I do want is two assistants who do as KoZed feel is necessary. A Chelios to hammer some poor bastard or talk it up in the dressing room (take notes Komi) and another forward with huge character. I want to make sure Koivu is the second line centre and does not have the expectation of carrying the team - which he still has in many respects. Is there a centre better than him on the club? No. Centre is a vital position, and with the significant improvement around the rest of the club, his skill-set and aging says he's probably not that first line guy Montreal needs anymore. What I really, really don't want is to show Koivu the complete lack of respect that some feel he deserves. Is he a throwback to the dark ages? Yes. Montreal failed him for so many years and he repaid them by taking lesser contracts, by playing with jokes of players, and by being above and beyond what any could have expected of him. Had he had a Kovalev and Tanguay when he was younger? I don't think we'd have had conversations of him not being a #1 guy back then. He deserves to be part of this Montreal revival. He's worked hard for it. Yes, this is, in the end, just a business, but sometimes loyalty is the best thing for business. I say keep him, help him to produce at his level without ridiculous expectation, and proocure a big, meaty centre to be the number one. My guess is that, when the pressure on him goes down to be the best guy on the team, his production and quality of play will rise. And then the team can ride his undenyable heart into the playoffs - when he outshines Joe Frikkin Thornton. Regularly. Edited January 30, 2009 by Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFT77 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Wow, the Kovalev bashing seems to be nonstop. I have to admit he has been sometimes inconsistent this year, but he is still producing points. My main areas of concern are the following: 1) The defense seems to need an upgrade. Marky has been pretty damn good. Komi alright. Hammy decent. Gorges really good, until lately. Now Breezer's been decent for his role. But the Cube has gotta go. Brings very little to the team, expect people always tend to overrate his grittiness and character, forgetting about his very POOR play. Get an upgrade here BG. 2) Higgins has escaped much criticism this season, and has been hurt for many games, but his production is horrible. Seems to be playing like a 3rd line winger at best. Slowly gonna be pass on the depth chart by the likes of MaxPac and Diago. Why Carbo seems to give him PP time when AKostits is on the bench is really baffling to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koivu11 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Here's the thing about Koivu from my perspective. First, he's returning from injury and necessarily his game won't be 100%. I don't think we should trade him or get rid of him, not at all. However, he is aging and his contract could potentially become an issue if the team isn't careful. I think he should be retained at a reasonable rate ($3M give or take per) and set out as the second line centre, no questions asked. Regardless of what some say, he's a battler, gives his all more often than virtually anyone, and is a playoff performer. When he's at his best is when the games mean the most. I do think, however, that we need to de-emphasize Koivu. By this I don't mean stripping the captaincy, however I do feel that he needs better support in the locker room. It's fine to lead by example. Yzerman led by example. Even if you don't dominate, as KoZed insists, you can still be an excellent leader. However what I do want is two assistants who do as KoZed feel is necessary. A Chelios to hammer some poor bastard or talk it up in the dressing room (take notes Komi) and another forward with huge character. I want to make sure Koivu is the second line centre and does not have the expectation of carrying the team - which he still has in many respects. Is there a centre better than him on the club? No. Centre is a vital position, and with the significant improvement around the rest of the club, his skill-set and aging says he's probably not that first line guy Montreal needs anymore. What I really, really don't want is to show Koivu the complete lack of respect that some feel he deserves. Is he a throwback to the dark ages? Yes. Montreal failed him for so many years and he repaid them by taking lesser contracts, by playing with jokes of players, and by being above and beyond what any could have expected of him. Had he had a Kovalev and Tanguay when he was younger? I don't think we'd have had conversations of him not being a #1 guy back then. He deserves to be part of this Montreal revival. He's worked hard for it. Yes, this is, in the end, just a business, but sometimes loyalty is the best thing for business. I say keep him, help him to produce at his level without ridiculous expectation, and proocure a big, meaty centre to be the number one. My guess is that, when the pressure on him goes down to be the best guy on the team, his production and quality of play will rise. And then the team can ride his undenyable heart into the playoffs - when he outshines Joe Frikkin Thornton. Regularly. Well Said Collin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Saku Koivu is a big part of the problem in Montreal, and you're just another deluded fanboy who cuts the overrated injury-and-slump prone SOB far too much slack. The reason people point out he's never won a damn thing is that he hasn't, it's a fact...and he couldn't lead flies to shit. I pray every night that he's not offered another contract after this season, and you can bet your bottom dollar that I'll be cracking open a bottle of champagne the day Saku Koivu is no longer a Montreal Canadien. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Here's the thing about Koivu from my perspective. First, he's returning from injury and necessarily his game won't be 100%. I don't think we should trade him or get rid of him, not at all. However, he is aging and his contract could potentially become an issue if the team isn't careful. I think he should be retained at a reasonable rate ($3M give or take per) and set out as the second line centre, no questions asked. Regardless of what some say, he's a battler, gives his all more often than virtually anyone, and is a playoff performer. When he's at his best is when the games mean the most. I do think, however, that we need to de-emphasize Koivu. By this I don't mean stripping the captaincy, however I do feel that he needs better support in the locker room. It's fine to lead by example. Yzerman led by example. Even if you don't dominate, as KoZed insists, you can still be an excellent leader. However what I do want is two assistants who do as KoZed feel is necessary. A Chelios to hammer some poor bastard or talk it up in the dressing room (take notes Komi) and another forward with huge character. I want to make sure Koivu is the second line centre and does not have the expectation of carrying the team - which he still has in many respects. Is there a centre better than him on the club? No. Centre is a vital position, and with the significant improvement around the rest of the club, his skill-set and aging says he's probably not that first line guy Montreal needs anymore. What I really, really don't want is to show Koivu the complete lack of respect that some feel he deserves. Is he a throwback to the dark ages? Yes. Montreal failed him for so many years and he repaid them by taking lesser contracts, by playing with jokes of players, and by being above and beyond what any could have expected of him. Had he had a Kovalev and Tanguay when he was younger? I don't think we'd have had conversations of him not being a #1 guy back then. He deserves to be part of this Montreal revival. He's worked hard for it. Yes, this is, in the end, just a business, but sometimes loyalty is the best thing for business. I say keep him, help him to produce at his level without ridiculous expectation, and proocure a big, meaty centre to be the number one. My guess is that, when the pressure on him goes down to be the best guy on the team, his production and quality of play will rise. And then the team can ride his undenyable heart into the playoffs - when he outshines Joe Frikkin Thornton. Regularly. I would bring him back at that price for no other reason than to show loyalty and because he's been around for so long. If he wants to come back, which I'm not sure of. But even in a reduced role, I'd prefer to not have him back. He himself has a good attitude, but he brings a losing/defeated attitude to the team. Year after year, the team has the exact same problems and makes the exact same mistakes - with Koivu being the only common thread that's been there from beginning to end. Each coach has been heavily criticized and run out of town but the team still has that exact same identity. Even now that we have one of the best teams in the league, we're still being held back by some phantom plague. I'm not even talking about the quality of his play, or the amount of points he puts up, he just seems to "infect" everyone around him, particularly in games in which he isn't playing well - which unfortunately, come in groups of 20. It seems to be a good opportunity to begin a new era in Montreal. It's been nice having Koivu but maybe it's time to pass the torch on to someone else? As I sort of hinted at above, I have a suspicion that he's considering testing the market anyway. *shrug* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I would bring him back at that price for no other reason than to show loyalty and because he's been around for so long. If he wants to come back, which I'm not sure of. But even in a reduced role, I'd prefer to not have him back. He himself has a good attitude, but he brings a losing/defeated attitude to the team. Year after year, the team has the exact same problems and makes the exact same mistakes - with Koivu being the only common thread that's been there from beginning to end. Each coach has been heavily criticized and run out of town but the team still has that exact same identity. Even now that we have one of the best teams in the league, we're still being held back by some phantom plague. I'm not even talking about the quality of his play, or the amount of points he puts up, he just seems to "infect" everyone around him, particularly in games in which he isn't playing well - which unfortunately, come in groups of 20. It seems to be a good opportunity to begin a new era in Montreal. It's been nice having Koivu but maybe it's time to pass the torch on to someone else? As I sort of hinted at above, I have a suspicion that he's considering testing the market anyway. *shrug* In an interview done earlier this season, he was pretty clear in saying he wanted to stay in Montreal. In fact, he was anxious because he hadn't heard from Bob and didn't expect to for a while because of Bob's policy of waiting until the off-season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 In an interview done earlier this season, he was pretty clear in saying he wanted to stay in Montreal. In fact, he was anxious because he hadn't heard from Bob and didn't expect to for a while because of Bob's policy of waiting until the off-season. Well, of course, they all say that. He said at one point that he wanted to stay but that he'll see what happens, sometimes things don't work out, stuff like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Saku Koivu is a big part of the problem in Montreal, and you're just another deluded fanboy who cuts the overrated injury-and-slump prone SOB far too much slack. The reason people point out he's never won a damn thing is that he hasn't, it's a fact...and he couldn't lead flies to shit. I pray every night that he's not offered another contract after this season, and you can bet your bottom dollar that I'll be cracking open a bottle of champagne the day Saku Koivu is no longer a Montreal Canadien. That's radical. I was just pointing out that Koivu never could be a true franchise player lot of people expected or thought he is/was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Here's the thing about Koivu from my perspective. First, he's returning from injury and necessarily his game won't be 100%. I don't think we should trade him or get rid of him, not at all. However, he is aging and his contract could potentially become an issue if the team isn't careful. I think he should be retained at a reasonable rate ($3M give or take per) and set out as the second line centre, no questions asked. Regardless of what some say, he's a battler, gives his all more often than virtually anyone, and is a playoff performer. When he's at his best is when the games mean the most. I do think, however, that we need to de-emphasize Koivu. By this I don't mean stripping the captaincy, however I do feel that he needs better support in the locker room. It's fine to lead by example. Yzerman led by example. Even if you don't dominate, as KoZed insists, you can still be an excellent leader. However what I do want is two assistants who do as KoZed feel is necessary. A Chelios to hammer some poor bastard or talk it up in the dressing room (take notes Komi) and another forward with huge character. I want to make sure Koivu is the second line centre and does not have the expectation of carrying the team - which he still has in many respects. Is there a centre better than him on the club? No. Centre is a vital position, and with the significant improvement around the rest of the club, his skill-set and aging says he's probably not that first line guy Montreal needs anymore. What I really, really don't want is to show Koivu the complete lack of respect that some feel he deserves. Is he a throwback to the dark ages? Yes. Montreal failed him for so many years and he repaid them by taking lesser contracts, by playing with jokes of players, and by being above and beyond what any could have expected of him. Had he had a Kovalev and Tanguay when he was younger? I don't think we'd have had conversations of him not being a #1 guy back then. He deserves to be part of this Montreal revival. He's worked hard for it. Yes, this is, in the end, just a business, but sometimes loyalty is the best thing for business. I say keep him, help him to produce at his level without ridiculous expectation, and proocure a big, meaty centre to be the number one. My guess is that, when the pressure on him goes down to be the best guy on the team, his production and quality of play will rise. And then the team can ride his undenyable heart into the playoffs - when he outshines Joe Frikkin Thornton. Regularly. Pretty close to my position. 1- Koivu should only leave Montreal if he choses to, either by lifting his NTC or via free agency after turning down a MTL offer. Dont want a mirror story of what happened with Sundin in TO. But then again, Habs never been known to be kind to their long-time stars (Carbo for Montgomery, the Roy debacle, Robinson bolting to LA, Lafleur, Dryden, etc.) so if Koivu is trully a Habs great, the divorce should be nasty to keep with the tradition. 2- If Koivu is kept, he does needs to be de-emphasize (just the exact word I needed). I'm not as converterd to the Koivu-is-a-leader-by-example creed. I'd wish Koivu would play the scoreboard more often, I'd wish he would have a tighter rein on the lockeroom. When the coach -one of the best captain in the franchise- says he'd have called a team meeting a long time ago, it does signal that there's some sense of urgency lacking there. I would give a lot more room to Komi. That guy is a Scott Stevens in the making. Another huge character guy is also necessary. But it also has to be someone who can produce results, not some grinding Mike Keane type of guy. I'm talking Muller/Damphousse type of guy. Top liners with balls. 3- Koivu had Recchi in his prime as a winger. Not too shabby. Petrov, Bure, Savage, Zubrus, Rucinsky. Maybe no Mike Bossy in there, but no Randy Cunneyworth either... When he got Kovy 3 years ago, they simply couldnt co-exists. Now would be the best time to give him that big, speedy, talented power-forward winger people said he needs for decade: Pacioretty. (which means we'll be doomed to see Higgins stinks away from Saku)... If only we could put Koivu & Kovy together in one player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l<OV4L3V Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Is this thread even necessary? Lets put up the tale to the tape here: Kovy this season: 48GP: 35 points +7 Koivu this season: 31GP: 24 points +8 Past 3 Seasons: from 2005-2006 to 2007-2008 season Kovy: 196 Points in 224 GP Koivu: 193 Points in 230 GP Playoffs: since 2002-2003 Kovy: 28 Points in 29 GP Koivu: 22 Points in 21 GP We can debate on here who is better and who is not...BUT..,at the end of the day Koivu goes missing from injury a heck of a lot more than Kovalev does. Kovalev usually takes the weight of the Canadiens organization and puts it on his back; so for those of you who believe that he has underachieved i beg to differ with you. (8-2-0 when Koivu and Higgins were missing is enough evidence that Kovalev demonstrates leadership). All of a sudden we are on a 4 game slide losing to Marginal teams? Coincidence...I think not. I am not going to lie Kovalev is much more of an asset to the Canadiens organization at this point and time because of one thing: the volume of Russian players that are on the Canadiens (which he has helped them come around in development drastically). Pacioretty playing with Koivu? Okay, was Saku Maxpac's favourite player growing up?..No Kovalev was, and if you asked me they looked pretty damn good out there together! Koivu did not have the right linemates for years, and some I 100% agree with...however real leaders inspire the players around them to play better. A prime example is Kovalchuk rubbing off on Todd White in Atlanta..he is playing well over his potential because Kovalchuks play inspires him and the others around him. At the end of the day I think this is a situation where Bob Gainey must choose one. Koivu has had more than enough time to get this team past round 2 of the playoffs and has gone missing in the playoffs TWICE out of those three playoff years. Staying healthy in the playoffs is vital for team success, and he just never seems to be 100%. If I was Bob Gainey, I resign Kovalev to a Two Year Contract with one year a NTC, and send Koivu to Minnesota to play with Mikko. However, I don't care if it is our 100th season...the Canadiens have to do what is right for the Canadiens...not Saku. I believe in this team and am a Montreal Canadiens fan...whether either player is here or not I care about one thing only, as should all of you...THE CUP. GO :hlogo: GO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan84 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Carbs maybe shouldnt go as far and speak out against the players but he's trying to light fire under them. The Habs players def'n deserve the critisism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Is this thread even necessary? Lets put up the tale to the tape here: Kovy this season: 48GP: 35 points +7 Koivu this season: 31GP: 24 points +8 Past 3 Seasons: from 2005-2006 to 2007-2008 season Kovy: 196 Points in 224 GP Koivu: 193 Points in 230 GP Playoffs: since 2002-2003 Kovy: 28 Points in 29 GP Koivu: 22 Points in 21 GP I'm fairly shocked that after displaying these numbers you seem to indicate a clear preference in Kovalev. The past three season totals, if your numbers are correct, has me believing this is a wash and any short-term statistics are just that, short-term. Are your numbers accurate? If they are, both players should take a modest pay cut to allow the club to acquire a big player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I'm fairly shocked that after displaying these numbers you seem to indicate a clear preference in Kovalev. The past three season totals, if your numbers are correct, has me believing this is a wash and any short-term statistics are just that, short-term. Are your numbers accurate? If they are, both players should take a modest pay cut to allow the club to acquire a big player. lol I thought he was about to say that the two of them were so close that we shouldn't be debating who is better. I do agree with him that we'll probably want to choose one of them this offseason. I think it was KoZed who said they couldn't co-exist. ("Neither can live while the other survives"). It doesn't seem like they can both have good games on the same nights. I'd pick Kovalev. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 He's still afraid to pull the plug on a key Vet. Lets say he plays kovy and hamrlik for 10 mins in a game and puts andrei kostitsyn on the bench. heck even koivu should get once in a while. you piss players off but you build a bad ass reputation. I do agree that he shouldn't blame players so often. perhaps a player should come to themike and say that '' we didn't put on our best effort and we were outcoached'' lets see how he would react. that player would immediatley sent out of town in a trade....ala Patrick Roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 lol I thought he was about to say that the two of them were so close that we shouldn't be debating who is better. I do agree with him that we'll probably want to choose one of them this offseason. I think it was KoZed who said they couldn't co-exist. ("Neither can live while the other survives"). It doesn't seem like they can both have good games on the same nights. I'd pick Kovalev. I would keep Kovalev as well. We may change our statements in the future though. One stat that is not on there are Kovalev's retaliation penalties in the offensive zone. They are selfish. He gets frustrated at not having room and retaliates. At least Captain hook is trying to slow down a player. Kovy just selfishly whacks somebody and off he goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitforming Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Since this has turned into a "who to keep" thread the answer is a no brainer.... Koivu At the very least Koivu tries every night even if he doesn't end up on the score sheet, can we say that about Kovalev? Edited February 2, 2009 by Habitforming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbhatt Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I would keep Kovalev as well. We may change our statements in the future though. One stat that is not on there are Kovalev's retaliation penalties in the offensive zone. They are selfish. He gets frustrated at not having room and retaliates. At least Captain hook is trying to slow down a player. Kovy just selfishly whacks somebody and off he goes. I look at it this way...Kovalev shouldn't have to whack guys when they get up high on him and jam him in the face like in that last game; there should be a guy who sends that message for him (hello...Laraque?). But if Kovalev is going to retaliate, he should really retaliate...swing to hurt. It worked wonders for getting Messier a little extra room to operate back in the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I look at it this way...Kovalev shouldn't have to whack guys when they get up high on him and jam him in the face like in that last game; there should be a guy who sends that message for him (hello...Laraque?). But if Kovalev is going to retaliate, he should really retaliate...swing to hurt. It worked wonders for getting Messier a little extra room to operate back in the day. messier would be spending 20 mins a game in the box for some of the stuff he pulled. They got rid of that "back in the day" stuff. now you have imaginary penalties. If the ref can think it up it's a penalty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 messier would be spending 20 mins a game in the box for some of the stuff he pulled. They got rid of that "back in the day" stuff. now you have imaginary penalties. If the ref can think it up it's a penalty My son asked where the refs come from, and I told them they work they way up the system just like players. He paused and said.." I know what goalies and players need to do to make it, but how do they rate refs?' I told him there are skills a ref or linesman needs, just like players. And he said.. "oh, you mean like having a good imagination?... Out of the mouth of babes comes life's greatest truths... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 My son asked where the refs come from, and I told them they work they way up the system just like players. He paused and said.." I know what goalies and players need to do to make it, but how do they rate refs?' I told him there are skills a ref or linesman needs, just like players. And he said.. "oh, you mean like having a good imagination?... Out of the mouth of babes comes life's greatest truths... Haha. Thats awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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