Habs @ Oilers | Game Thread

[Helmethead]

Wow..

The only positive thing out of this is that the Game Threads have increased fro 4 to 9 pages. Your bitching kept me busy for about 45min at work this morning.

Since bowling didn't work, maybe Carbo and Gainey should try waterboarding instead.

Sheeez, this is pathetic...

[InsaneHABSfan]

Offense is not the problem on this team

Scoring two goals is really going to win you games? And no power play, hmmm that is not an Offense problem either.

But you are right in a way as this team should be better defensively with Gainey and Carbo in the organization.

And Price, please get off your knees and stand up! This is the same thing that happrnrd to Theodore in Habland as he tried to play whole games on his knees.

[JoeLassister]

It won't get better if you dress one of your better defencive d-man on offence I suppose ...?

That's right. I still don't understand this move.

[Chris]

Well that was another old fashion a## kicking. Apparantly yelling and clearing nthe air didn't do anything. Bowling therapy didn't make a difference. I do like the waterboarding suggestion, unfortunately it isn't legal here anymore, you'll have to do it when they get back to Canada.

As far as goaltending goes, it currently isn't helping much but isn't the main problem right now. As i have said for a few seasons, the outstanding goaltending we have all seen over the past years has simply masked the pathetic defense on this team. Now that goaltending is average at best it sticks out like a sore thimb.

Did Komi get benched in the second last night? He and Markov surely deserved it, Komi's man was the guy who scored the first 4 goals. For christ sake, COVER YOUR MAN, how do you get outworked by people 40 lbs less then you?

Offense or whatever they call it now is just non existant. They look slow, uninterested in the net or the puck.

I did want to thank Laraque and Pacioretty who looked like they hustled and broke a sweat. Thanks guys.

I think i am going to find out where they are staying here and have my own team meeting with them.

I have said it for a while, BG needs to get rid of the garbage on this team and turn it over. They could certainly add another 1st rounder and youth to the offseason. They'll have plenty of cash to buy who they want.

What a chicken sh## play by pleks last night. That guy should have gotten his a## beat for that.

[brobin]

Edmonton head coach Craig MacTavish admitted that Montreal goaltender Carey Price wasn't at the top of his game.

"We scored goals tonight that we haven't seen go in for a while," he said. "Carey struggled. He's a heck of a goalie but he struggled tonight. A few of those might have been stopped on another night."

[KoZed]

Edmonton head coach Craig MacTavish admitted that Montreal goaltender Carey Price wasn't at the top of his game.

"We scored goals tonight that we haven't seen go in for a while," he said. "Carey struggled. He's a heck of a goalie but he struggled tonight. A few of those might have been stopped on another night."

How about 5 of the 7?

[KoZed]

That's right. I still don't understand this move.

It was to punish SKost. And to get Breezer in the lineup since he's apparently the only guy we have that can play on the right point on the PP that wont give shorthanded breakaways.

[Dalhabs]

Time to bring up Marc Denis? He is a veteran with some history of being no. 1. Im not saying he would be our no1 but maybe he could put up some decent starts and put some pressure on Price and Halak. If not maybe he can teach them something about having slumps and how to get out of them.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I usually agree with Wamsley, but this time I may have to jump ship (respectfully of course). Price's post-All Star play is the single biggest reason for this catastrophic slump. That's not to deny that the whole team is a mess. But part of the reason why it has turned into a mess is from being scored on whenever things break down. Not only has Price failed to make the big save when the team really needs it, he has regularly committed the further sin of letting in softies night after night. Put these elements together, you get a team that no longer has the confidence that it can make a mistake - nor that it can win even if it plays well. The result is an infinity of mistakes. I've seen the same thing in Vancouver. Whenever Luongo struggles, the whole team tends to tank, and a blueline that is normally pretty solid looks horrible, and forwards who are normally tolerably productive look lost at sea. Team confidence and cohesion, in other words, starts from the net.

In the bigger picture, I'm becoming extremely worried about Price. He was superb for most of last year and most of this season. He is the cornerstone of the rebuild. And yet we've twice seen his game absolutely collapse - once in the playoffs last year (and our team looks disturbingly reminiscent of how it looked in the later stages of the Philly series), and now following the All Star break. Growth pains, probably, but there is a serious danger here of shattering the kid, obliterating his confidence and turning him into potentially permanently damaged goods. (I find myself painfully reminded of Jose Theodore, who literally overnight lost his touch and has never quite gotten it back). Gainey took a leap of faith in anointing him the #1 without giving him the cushion of a veteran backup. It's turning out to be grave mistake. If this keeps on, his entire development may be at risk. I certainly didn't think he should have started against Edmonton, and at this point I give the ball to Halak and hope like hell that Price can reconcstruct his shattered game.

Bring up Denis, sure, but don't expect him to help much. In fact, he's yet another example of the Pascal Leclaire-Jose Theodore school of goaltening, a guy who went from being considered a reliable #1 starter to being barely worthy of NHL employment. So he could hurt Price as much as help him - by exemplifying exactly how not to be.

Meanwhile, Bob has to do something. Kovalev is the obvious moveable asset and I wouldn't be at all surprised to find him gone in short order.

Any other franchise, of course, would be seriously set to fire the coach.

Edited February 12, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Colin]

With regards to the coaching...

Well, don't get me wrong, I think Carbo has potential. But he's become more and more wishy-washy as the season has gone. Make some lines. Stick with them.

More importantly, though, the work ethic sucks. Some call this a leadership problem, I disagree. When Scotty Bowman was coach (please bring him back) he had the guys practice line changes when they got lazy.

Yes. Line changes.

Guys would skate around at high speed for 40 seconds or so, he'd blow a whistle, and they'd get their butts off the ice for a fresh line as fast as possible. No coasting. Can't coast. Scotty would skin you. I remember watching clips of one of these practices after the Habs lost a lazy game. He wouldn't put up with hit. We have guys being lazy all over the ice. It's just not good enough. You can call them out for being unprofessional and all, but if they don't respond to verbal jibes, you can't just let it go.

I guess what needs to happen is that players have to start hating Carbo. Hating him so much they love him (well put, Maca). When that happens, they'll go to war for him, and for each other. Right now... right now Kostopoulous is the only one mixing things up when they're being shellacked by a lesser club. Laraque out there. Kosto doing the agitating. Lapierre, Komi, etc, etc, etc. Kosto the only one with anger and pride. The only one who paid THAT price.

This team needs line change practice. Badly. Repeatedly. They need Carbo being fed up. He needs to look at Kosty and Plex after a game like last night and tell them they're sitting until he doesn't want to puke on them when he sees them. Call up kids who want to bust their buns with a shot. I want to hear about no-pucks practices where guys are puking afterwards. I want people - like Kovalev - to ride the middle of the bench in full view of everyone when he plays like a nancy. Not for a period, but from the moment he comes off his first nancy shift.

I want to hear that the players are so pissed off with Carbo because he's become downright nasty. I want to hear shocked commentary from reporters going into dressing rooms after practice to see the players unable to stand. The players who work need to be rewarded. Consistently. So that those who don't realize what they can have. I'm sick of seeing our better players losing one-on-one battles; it's completely unacceptable. When Komi and Markov do that, they need a full dressing-down on the bench.

Mostly I want to see line change practice.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

With regards to the coaching...

Well, don't get me wrong, I think Carbo has potential. But he's become more and more wishy-washy as the season has gone. Make some lines. Stick with them.

More importantly, though, the work ethic sucks. Some call this a leadership problem, I disagree. When Scotty Bowman was coach (please bring him back) he had the guys practice line changes when they got lazy.

Yes. Line changes.

Guys would skate around at high speed for 40 seconds or so, he'd blow a whistle, and they'd get their butts off the ice for a fresh line as fast as possible. No coasting. Can't coast. Scotty would skin you. I remember watching clips of one of these practices after the Habs lost a lazy game. He wouldn't put up with hit. We have guys being lazy all over the ice. It's just not good enough. You can call them out for being unprofessional and all, but if they don't respond to verbal jibes, you can't just let it go.

I guess what needs to happen is that players have to start hating Carbo. Hating him so much they love him (well put, Maca). When that happens, they'll go to war for him, and for each other. Right now... right now Kostopoulous is the only one mixing things up when they're being shellacked by a lesser club. Laraque out there. Kosto doing the agitating. Lapierre, Komi, etc, etc, etc. Kosto the only one with anger and pride. The only one who paid THAT price.

This team needs line change practice. Badly. Repeatedly. They need Carbo being fed up. He needs to look at Kosty and Plex after a game like last night and tell them they're sitting until he doesn't want to puke on them when he sees them. Call up kids who want to bust their buns with a shot. I want to hear about no-pucks practices where guys are puking afterwards. I want people - like Kovalev - to ride the middle of the bench in full view of everyone when he plays like a nancy. Not for a period, but from the moment he comes off his first nancy shift.

I want to hear that the players are so pissed off with Carbo because he's become downright nasty. I want to hear shocked commentary from reporters going into dressing rooms after practice to see the players unable to stand. The players who work need to be rewarded. Consistently. So that those who don't realize what they can have. I'm sick of seeing our better players losing one-on-one battles; it's completely unacceptable. When Komi and Markov do that, they need a full dressing-down on the bench.

Mostly I want to see line change practice.

This is one reason for moving Kovalev. He's been treated with kid gloves by Carbo, presumably because Carbonneau correctly recognizes that if you 'punish' Kovalev for not working, or for taking long shifts, or whatever, you lose him for the whole season. But this is a terrible principle if you want to instill an ethos that says 'we play a system and we work like hell.' You can say that all you want, but impressionable young players hear that and then look at Kovalev and see that 2 + 2 = 5. Just a thought.

By the way, I forgot to congratulate you on this hilarious and apposite post. Nicely done!

Edited February 12, 2009 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Habsfan84]

Dandy was the only player who showed up!

I cant believe i stayed up for this entire game.

[brobin]

Price has collapsed three times. Last year he struggled and was sent down for a bit. That seemed to help him a lot. Then he tanked in the playoffs, but had the summer to recover. Now he is struggling mid-season again. I am not convinced this kid is mentally strong at all, at least not yet in his career.

I am not sure what Carbo can do about it, unless Gainey brings in a vet goalie to relieve the pressure. If not, it will be interesting to see how long it takes Price to "play his way out of it", or if he even can.

I still think we need a big centre, a PP specialist defenseman, and a vet goalie if we are to right the ship this year. If Gainey stands relatively pat, or fails to pull off some deals, then I see our best case is to scrap into the playoffs and have a quick exit.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Price has been playing poorly so it seems but he was outstanding for most of the season.

The Habs have had this meltdown for the better part of five or six seasons.

Price is not the problem.

It may be the coach, it may be Koivu, it may be Kovalev, it may be the atmosphere that is the CH.

What ever it is, this needs to be intervened and solved by Gainey. One way or the other.

[BCHabnut]

I dropped about 1200 bucks to go tho that game. I was interviewed by CBC french. That was kinda cool. 3 players seemed to be trying. Kosto, Koivu, and Dandy.

Please never play Higgins as a centre. Please trade Kovy to Penguins for a bag of pucks and a first round pick.

[JoeLassister]

I dropped about 1200 bucks to go tho that game. I was interviewed by CBC french. That was kinda cool. 3 players seemed to be trying. Kosto, Koivu, and Dandy.

Please never play Higgins as a centre. Please trade Kovy to Penguins for a bag of pucks and a first round pick.

Wow !!! What kind of crazy night did you have ??? Or did you sleep at the hotel ?

[KoZed]

The Habs have had this meltdown for the better part of five or six seasons.

It may be the coach, it may be Koivu, it may be Kovalev, it may be the atmosphere that is the CH.

What ever it is, this needs to be intervened and solved by Gainey. One way or the other.

How can it be the coach's fault when it also happened before he was even there?

The players had Vigneault's head: he won the Jack Adams in 06-07

The players had Therrien's head: Therrien went to the SCF last year.

The players had Julien's head: Julien is coaches the best team in the league today.

It's the players' fault, starting at the top with the captain.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

How can it be the coach's fault when it also happened before he was even there?

The players had Vigneault's head: he won the Jack Adams in 06-07

The players had Therrien's head: Therrien went to the SCF last year.

The players had Julien's head: Julien is coaches the best team in the league today.

It's the players' fault, starting at the top with the captain.

Then the coach has to get these players in line. If that is completely impossible then the GM must step in and either move the player(s) or find a coach that can get the players in line.

[Habsfan]

I usually agree with Wamsley, but this time I may have to jump ship (respectfully of course). Price's post-All Star play is the single biggest reason for this catastrophic slump. That's not to deny that the whole team is a mess. But part of the reason why it has turned into a mess is from being scored on whenever things break down. Not only has Price failed to make the big save when the team really needs it, he has regularly committed the further sin of letting in softies night after night. Put these elements together, you get a team that no longer has the confidence that it can make a mistake - nor that it can win even if it plays well. The result is an infinity of mistakes. I've seen the same thing in Vancouver. Whenever Luongo struggles, the whole team tends to tank, and a blueline that is normally pretty solid looks horrible, and forwards who are normally tolerably productive look lost at sea. Team confidence and cohesion, in other words, starts from the net.

Same here. I also usually agree with Wamsley 90% of the time, I guess this is one of those times where i don't.

True that a team system can make all the difference for a goalie and his stats, but there's no denying that Carey has been struggling since the All Star break! In fact, all 4 players (Kovy, Markov, Komo and Price) who went to the All-Star game, have SUCKED BIG TIME since that week-end. I wonder how things would've turned out if they could've rested for that week-end??

Anyways, to get back to Carey, the Kid is struggling! His confidence is shattered. He needs to continue playing. DO NOT send him to Hamilton, it will fv.ck him up for the rest of his career. Rest Carey tonight, but you gotta put him in net in Vancouver on Sunday in front of his "home town" crowd. The Habs will not get out of this slump until Carey figures out a way to get better.

However, we CAN NOT place all the blame on Kid Price. Everyone on this team except for (Lapierre, Kostopoulos, Bégin, Pacioretty) have sucked for the better part of 1 month. The whole team seems like they don't even care anymore, and that's what I find the most frustrating. On most nights' our boys don't even show up...they just go through the motions and as soon as the other team gets physical, our boys shy away like pussies!

At this point, i'm not even sure if they have the intestinal fortitude to make the playoffs...and if they do make it, I expect a quick exit in the 1st round!

Sorry for the rant, but I'm really frustrated and disappointed right now!!!

Edited February 13, 2009 by Habsfan

[BCHabnut]

Wow !!! What kind of crazy night did you have ??? Or did you sleep at the hotel ?

My tickets were $800. I decided to go all out and get lower bowl club seats. I think that internet ticket sales should be made ilegal. If the only scalpers were street scalpers, the prices would be a lot lower, but because they have months and weeks to change prices online based on supply and demand, they jack the prices way up. I spent the other 400 on gas hotel and booze.

[KoZed]

Then the coach has to get these players in line. If that is completely impossible then the GM must step in and either move the player(s) or find a coach that can get the players in line.

No no no and no.

The problem in Montreal is Koivu. Plain and simple. Not Koivu himself, but the place that is given to him and the place he takes. Too much is asked of him, and he simply cant deliver.

He is in the same boat as Olli Jokinen was in Florida. Captain who can't carry his team anywhere. If Saku was any other player -- say Pierre Turgeon -- he'd have been shipped out already and the Habs could have rebuilt around someone else. Look at the Panthers. They ditched Jokinen for a couple of solid defensemen, built around Horton supported with Bouwmeester and it changed the face of the team, and now they are having the best season in years.

Problem is that, in Montreal it cant be done. Why? Because fans -- most of all Georges Gillett -- have developped a sentimental affection for Saku because of all his struggles and because he's a nice little guy and etc. But because of Gillett's love affair with Koivu (his adopted son), Gainey's hands are tied and Carbo has to take white gloves when dealing with Saku.

Not to mention that because of that, it cost us a point-per-game center who would be our #1 right now. Ribs was traded because Saku couldnt stand him. If Ribeiro trully had an attitude problem, a true leader would have got over his personal interest and reelled Ribs in for the good of the team on and off the ice. No, Koivu couldnt, he had to fight him and then complain to get him traded. And it's not like Ribs was out of control and couldnt be dealt with reasonably. Just look how he now acts in Dallas.

The coaches are not on the same level as the players. They're not part of the group. It's not up to them to lead. Generals or colonels have authority, but they're not the ones trusted to lead the soldiers into battle and preserve the cohesion & morale of the group during the action, that's a corporal or sergeant's job. That's Koivu's job. And he has failed, miserably, for the past 4-5 seasons, in transmitting his work ethic or whatever is supposed to set him appart from the rest and make him such a great captain.

Teams are at the image of their captains. I've been a Koivu fan for years and years, but the results are never there, and he's getting treated way better than he deserves based on his results alone. Now that his leadership is failing -- again -- people want to blame the coaches -- again? Enough. I'm tired of seeing good, honest, competent coaches get blamed for the captain's constant failures and watch them succeed elsewhere. Enough. How long with that vicious cycle go on? Enough. Ya basta. It's becoming an insult to intelligence. Either Koivu has no ascendant on the players and therefore cant get them to follow him; or he just doesnt try to get them to step up. Either way is a failure.

I'm tired of failure. I'm tired of losers. The root cause is not the coaches or the talent, it's clear as daylight now.

[sbhatt]

No no no and no.

The problem in Montreal is Koivu. Plain and simple. Not Koivu himself, but the place that is given to him and the place he takes. Too much is asked of him, and he simply cant deliver.

He is in the same boat as Olli Jokinen was in Florida. Captain who can't carry his team anywhere. If Saku was any other player -- say Pierre Turgeon -- he'd have been shipped out already and the Habs could have rebuilt around someone else. Look at the Panthers. They ditched Jokinen for a couple of solid defensemen, built around Horton supported with Bouwmeester and it changed the face of the team, and now they are having the best season in years.

Problem is that, in Montreal it cant be done. Why? Because fans -- most of all Georges Gillett -- have developped a sentimental affection for Saku because of all his struggles and because he's a nice little guy and etc. But because of Gillett's love affair with Koivu (his adopted son), Gainey's hands are tied and Carbo has to take white gloves when dealing with Saku.

Not to mention that because of that, it cost us a point-per-game centre who would be our #1 right now. Ribs was traded because Saku couldnt stand him. If Ribeiro trully had an attitude problem, a true leader would have got over his personal interest and reelled Ribs in for the good of the team on and off the ice. No, Koivu couldnt, he had to fight him and then complain to get him traded. And it's not like Ribs was out of control and couldnt be dealt with reasonably. Just look how he now acts in Dallas.

The coaches are not on the same level as the players. They're not part of the group. It's not up to them to lead. Generals or colonels have authority, but they're not the ones trusted to lead the soliders into battle and preserve the cohesion & morale of the group during the action, that's a corporal or sergeant's job. That's Koivu's job. And he has failed, miserably, for the past 4-5 seasons, in transmitting his work ethic or whatever is supposed to set him appart from the rest and make him such a great captain.

Teams are at the image of their captains. I've been a Koivu fan for years and years, but the results are never there, and he's getting treated way better than he deserves based on his results alone. Now that his leadership is failing -- again -- people want to blame the coaches -- again? Enough. I'm tired of seeing good, honest, competent coaches get blamed for the captain's constant failures and watch them succeed elsewhere. Enough. How long with that vicious cycle go on? Enough. Ya basta. It's becoming an insult to intelligence. Either Koivu has no ascendant on the players and therefore cant get them to follow him; or he just doesnt try to get them to step up. Either way is a failure.

I'm tired of failure. I'm tired of losers. The root cause is not the coaches ro the talent, it's clear as daylight now.

:clap: :clap:

This is the early favourite to get my vote for 'post of the year'.

[Fanpuck33]

I agree 100%, Koz. As I said last year, after firing coach after coach, you've eventually got to realize that coaching is not the primary problem.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

No no no and no.

The problem in Montreal is Koivu. Plain and simple. Not Koivu himself, but the place that is given to him and the place he takes. Too much is asked of him, and he simply cant deliver.

He is in the same boat as Olli Jokinen was in Florida. Captain who can't carry his team anywhere. If Saku was any other player -- say Pierre Turgeon -- he'd have been shipped out already and the Habs could have rebuilt around someone else. Look at the Panthers. They ditched Jokinen for a couple of solid defensemen, built around Horton supported with Bouwmeester and it changed the face of the team, and now they are having the best season in years.

Problem is that, in Montreal it cant be done. Why? Because fans -- most of all Georges Gillett -- have developped a sentimental affection for Saku because of all his struggles and because he's a nice little guy and etc. But because of Gillett's love affair with Koivu (his adopted son), Gainey's hands are tied and Carbo has to take white gloves when dealing with Saku.

Not to mention that because of that, it cost us a point-per-game centre who would be our #1 right now. Ribs was traded because Saku couldnt stand him. If Ribeiro trully had an attitude problem, a true leader would have got over his personal interest and reelled Ribs in for the good of the team on and off the ice. No, Koivu couldnt, he had to fight him and then complain to get him traded. And it's not like Ribs was out of control and couldnt be dealt with reasonably. Just look how he now acts in Dallas.

The coaches are not on the same level as the players. They're not part of the group. It's not up to them to lead. Generals or colonels have authority, but they're not the ones trusted to lead the soldiers into battle and preserve the cohesion & morale of the group during the action, that's a corporal or sergeant's job. That's Koivu's job. And he has failed, miserably, for the past 4-5 seasons, in transmitting his work ethic or whatever is supposed to set him appart from the rest and make him such a great captain.

Teams are at the image of their captains. I've been a Koivu fan for years and years, but the results are never there, and he's getting treated way better than he deserves based on his results alone. Now that his leadership is failing -- again -- people want to blame the coaches -- again? Enough. I'm tired of seeing good, honest, competent coaches get blamed for the captain's constant failures and watch them succeed elsewhere. Enough. How long with that vicious cycle go on? Enough. Ya basta. It's becoming an insult to intelligence. Either Koivu has no ascendant on the players and therefore cant get them to follow him; or he just doesnt try to get them to step up. Either way is a failure.

I'm tired of failure. I'm tired of losers. The root cause is not the coaches or the talent, it's clear as daylight now.

I am not saying that you are wrong. I am saying that it is Gainey's and Carbo's problem to deal with. If Koivu is the problem then strip his "C" and do what you will with it. How many meltdowns must we have before someone in the Habs management steps up and does something? It is almost as if you suggest that Gainey is at the mercy of the players...If our management has an issue, for ###### sakes grow some balls and deal with it.

[KoZed]

I am not saying that you are wrong. I am saying that it is Gainey's and Carbo's problem to deal with. If Koivu is the problem then strip his "C" and do what you will with it. How many meltdowns must we have before someone in the Habs management steps up and does something? It is almost as if you suggest that Gainey is at the mercy of the players...If our management has an issue, for ###### sakes grow some balls and deal with it.

Totally agree with you. I'm sure it would have been dealt with a while ago... if Gillett didnt consider Saku his adopted son since the cancer episode. Remember a year or so ago, Carbo called out Saku by saying after a bad stretch that he would have called a meeting a long time ago if he had been captain, and almost had to retract himself afterwards. Also when Saku whined 2 summers ago that he was tired of losing and wanted to get help, Gainey basically tried to avoid the issue altogether. What player would question his GM, Gainey of all people? Even Kovy never went that far. Koivu has protection from the highest floor and nobody around the team dare say anything, not even the GM.

In itself it doesnt bother me so much. It's a common thing for star pro athletes players to have a direct connection with their team's owner. What bothers me is the coaches are always the ones taking the blame for the team's long slumps when it's the captain and his assistants' mandate to show the example and lead the way.