Fanpuck33 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I respect your comments, KoZed, but is a French speaking coach going to sell better than winning games? Which is more likely for people to pay money to see - a loser with a French coach or a winner with an English coach? When it comes to sports and making money, winning comes first. I'm a person who firmly believes anyone who moves to the states should have to learn English. If a guy who only speaks French is hired by the Jackets, I'm perfectly fine with that. As long as he makes an effort to learn the language and can at least make himself understood in English after a year or two, I'm perfectly fine with that. I realize this example doesn't make a lot of sense since so few Jackets speak French, but you get my point. As a fan, I'd much rather have a winner than be able to relate to the coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLP Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 IMO specific French for coaches is not so difficult. I work with a lot of Japanese athletes and they basically say the same things with very few variations every time. To get the questions is more challenging, so have a comely interpreter on hand. Coach: learn several sentence structures, maybe 50 vocabulary items and a dozen verbs and you're set. Anyway, It's not like we expect the coach to discuss Proust... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 That being said, I would require a non-French speaking coach to learn French as part of his contract You don't think even that "concession" is going to severely limit the coaches interested in coaching in Montreal? lol Until people realize it, that whole "French" thing is going to about 99% guarantee we never win a Cup again. The world is changing. Keep up, or get lost in the shuffle. Reality #2: The Habs are expected to be an entry door for Quebec-born players and staff. Fans around the province, medias and politicians expect it. The team already got flack and lost fans for not drafting or signing Quebec-born players in the latest years. Getting a non-French speaking coach will be the last straw for many more fans in the province. With the economy dwindling and entertainment dollars getting more and more scarce, Bell can't afford people dropping their cable because all they wanted was to watch the Habs on RDS and now they are fed up with the team getting a coach they can't identify with. You speak the 100% truth. And that is why, just like the MLSE Toronto Maple Leafs, Montreal will probably never win a Cup again. Can you imagine how absolutely dreadful Montreal would be if they only picked French players? Laughable. They'd have one or two better players, and the rest would be QMJHC crap that couldn't find their own end with a map and compass. Well, I guess that's sport for you. I spose the Habs will keep fleecing money from the suckers who will pay for a garbage product for a while as long as the building is full. Laughable Might as well go out and hire Bergeron for GM and Hartley for coach, get rid of the non-French players and replace them with purebred Quebecois and watch the team sink into hopelessness. It's such a shame. I mean, wouldn't it be better for all Quebecois if the Habs won Cup after Cup, paraded it down Ste. Catherines, and lorded it over the rest of the hockey world? No, they prefer some tragically outdated mode of operations. Laughable. Go Bruins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 You don't think even that "concession" is going to severely limit the coaches interested in coaching in Montreal? If a guy is being offered a nice big contract to coach the most historic team in the league and doesn't take the job because he's too lazy to learn passable French, then I don't think he was what it takes to coach this team to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 If a guy is being offered a nice big contract to coach the most historic team in the league and doesn't take the job because he's too lazy to learn passable French, then I don't think he was what it takes to coach this team to begin with. Fanpuck, you're attitude is progressive, intelligent and forward thinking. Not something the media here has much of. Most of them don't appreciate Bob's knowledge of french. The rhetoric here is sickening, it's on the level of Rush Limbaugh, hoping Obama fails. It's Quebecois, or nothing at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 If a guy is being offered a nice big contract to coach the most historic team in the league and doesn't take the job because he's too lazy to learn passable French, then I don't think he was what it takes to coach this team to begin with. If a guy is being offered a nice big contract, taxable in Quebec where he's going to lose more than 50% - and in a place where his choices for children's education is limited if he doesn't want them in French, to coach the most historic team, most political team, with a the largest quantity of uneducated fans, the worst media in the sport by a country mile, expectations about a hundred miles north of whatever the product is on the ice, in the league and doesn't take the job because he's too lazy, has better things to do with his time like, oh, coach, spend time with his family, etc., to learn passable French, then I don't think he was what it takes to coach this team to begin with. Probably not. Well. That rules out most of the coaches in hockey. Somewhat limiting, neh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 You speak the 100% truth. And that is why, just like the MLSE Toronto Maple Leafs, Montreal will probably never win a Cup again. Can you imagine how absolutely dreadful Montreal would be if they only picked French players? Laughable. They'd have one or two better players, and the rest would be QMJHC crap that couldn't find their own end with a map and compass. Hmmm... Ok, say in the last 10 years, Habs try to draft as many Quebec-born players as possible: 1999 draft: - Martin Grenier (45th oa) instead of A. Buturlin (39th oa) 2000 draft: - Antoine Vermette (55th oa) instead of Hainsey (13th) - Yanick Lehoux (86th oa) instead of Hossa (16th). 2001 draft: - Pascal Leclaire (8th oa) instead of Komisarek (7th oa), - Jason Pominville (55th oa) instead of Perezhogin (25th oa), - Stephane Veilleux (93rd) instead of Duncan Milroy (37th). Might still pick Plekanec 71st oa. Veilleux is a regular grinder in Minny for 4 years now. 2002 draft: - Franco-ontarian Daniel Paille (20th overall) or Montrealer Matthew Lombardi (90th oa) instead of Chris Higgins (14th), - Maxime Talbot (234rd) instead of Tomas Linhart (45th), 2003 draft: - Steve Bernier (16th oa) instead of A. Kostitsyn (10th), - Patrice Bergeron (45th) instead of Cory Urquhart - Alexandre Picard (the Ottawa D) (85th) instead of Ryan O'Byrne (79th oa) - Bruno Gervais (182th) instead of Corey Locke (113th) 2004 draft - Nick Fugere (114th) instead of Chipchura (18th). No Q players from that year made the NHL yet. 2005 draft - Luc Bourdon (10th oa) instead of Price (5th oa) 2006 draft - Claude Giroux (22nd oa) instead of Fisher (20th oa) Giroux plays for the Flyers already. 2007 draft - Angelo Esposito (20th) instead of McDonagh (12th) - David Perron (26th) instead of Pacioretty (22nd) QMJHL crap, really? Bergeron, Vermette, Pominville, Lombardi, Bernier, Veilleux, Paille, Talbot, Giroux & Perron are all in the NHL. Add Lapierre & Latendresse and you have a pretty good group of forwards, wouldnt you say? On defense we'd lack Komisarek, instead we'd have swift puck-moving D like Picard & Gervais. And Bourdon (God rest his soul) was a stud in the making. We wouldnt have Price, but we'd have Leclaire already. This is was muddles up the debate. Ignorance and preconveived ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 The idea that the Canadiens have some sort of mandate to develop francophone coaches is so ridiculous that I'm at a loss for words. Is that how far we've fallen as an organization? That idea is strictly a media creation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 The idea that the Canadiens have some sort of mandate to develop francophone coaches is so ridiculous that I'm at a loss for words. Is that how far we've fallen as an organization? That idea is strictly a media creation. It's not a mandate, it's an expectation. And no, it's not a media creation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 It's not a mandate, it's an expectation. And no, it's not a media creation. It's absolutely a media creation. The average fan doesn't care about who coaches the team. No offence Kozed, but your earlier post about marketing is way off as well. It's about the brand Montreal Canadiens, the 4 minute sound bite after the game is not going to keep large companies from investing millions. The future coach is not going to affect sales of jerseys or those silly car flags, it's winning that does. It's about the team, and the sweater, the logo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 It's absolutely a media creation. The average fan doesn't care about who coaches the team. No offence Kozed, but your earlier post about marketing is way off as well. It's about the brand Montreal Canadiens, the 4 minute sound bite after the game is not going to keep large companies from investing millions. The future coach is not going to affect sales of jerseys or those silly car flags, it's winning that does. It's about the team, and the sweater, the logo. I'm sorry, but you seem to have a limited scope about what the Habs fandom in the province is and cares about; and what the sponsors are concerned with. If you trully believe that there is no politics behind the coaching position, that it doesnt affect the following of the team and therefore affects the excecutive decisions, then you're oblivious to the reality of the business. It's no coincidence that it's Boivin, the President, that says the coach has to speak French. The President dont get involved in hockey decisions, he gets involved in business decisions. When you hear him say what is going to happen, it's because he already made that business decision. That's just the way it is. Deny it as much as you want, it wont change anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokyohabs Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 This is bonkers. All the coach has to do is learn some French. FFS if I moved to Cork to become hurling coach, I'd pick up a few words just to keep up. The locals there are just as demanding as we are with our team. He isn't raving about the next coach must be pure-laine, PQ member, Catholic convert and own an entire set of Gilles Vigneault recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I'm sorry, but you seem to have a limited scope about what the Habs fandom in the province is and cares about; and what the sponsors are concerned with. If you trully believe that there is no politics behind the coaching position, that it doesnt affect the following of the team and therefore affects the excecutive decisions, then you're oblivious to the reality of the business. It's no coincidence that it's Boivin, the President, that says the coach has to speak French. The President dont get involved in hockey decisions, he gets involved in business decisions. When you hear him say what is going to happen, it's because he already made that business decision. That's just the way it is. Deny it as much as you want, it wont change anything. Limited scope, oblivious, you have an interesting way of carrying on a debate. I tend to read more than contribute, you, on the other hand, can't seem to resist posting. I'll be honest, you should stick to how the team plays, not enlightning us on marketing, something your not familiar with. I guess why I'm bothering to respond, is that this way of thinking makes us, as a province, look like imbeciles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 This is was muddles up the debate. Ignorance and preconveived ideas. ...and your horse, sanctimonious... You've put together a whole pile of third and fourth line players with one or two decent ones. You also have a goalie who will make you long for the healthy days of Saku Koivu. And if you think the Habs are soft now? Let's just say one or two of those guys really reaches a better potential than what I think. You now have a playoff team that will never win anything. Congrats. Your ethnic cleansing just gave you eternal uselessness. Don't get me wrong, there are *great* players that come out of Quebec. Always have been, always will. However... There have never been more players drafted from the Q over the OHL - not once - since 1969. In fact, it's rarely been close. Only one time since 1969 have there been more Q players drafted than the WHL. Last year was the 1st time since 1998 that there have been more Q players drafted than from the NCAA and USHS's. Does this mean that ALL the other GM's are wrong too and that Quebec players are overlooked despite being better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 ...and your horse, sanctimonious... You've put together a whole pile of third and fourth line players with one or two decent ones. You also have a goalie who will make you long for the healthy days of Saku Koivu. And if you think the Habs are soft now? Let's just say one or two of those guys really reaches a better potential than what I think. You now have a playoff team that will never win anything. Congrats. Your ethnic cleansing just gave you eternal uselessness. Don't get me wrong, there are *great* players that come out of Quebec. Always have been, always will. However... There have never been more players drafted from the Q over the OHL - not once - since 1969. In fact, it's rarely been close. Only one time since 1969 have there been more Q players drafted than the WHL. Last year was the 1st time since 1998 that there have been more Q players drafted than from the NCAA and USHS's. Does this mean that ALL the other GM's are wrong too and that Quebec players are overlooked despite being better? Colin, again, you missed my point entirely. You basically said that the Q produces only crap. I gave you 12 forwards from the Q who are in the NHL that the Habs could have drafted in place of career minor leaguers like Buturlin, Milroy, Linhart, Perezhogin, Locke. Just examples to prove how exagerrated your claim was. Didnt say we should have drafted them all, just saying that many of them would have been far better options then what we ended up with, and that if we had been more inclined toward drafting local, we'd actually might be better off. Of course some choices are obvious. Komo over Leclaire, or Price over Bourdon. You still have to admit you were way off base on that one... Now you say the guys I named are 3rd and 4th liners? Pominville put up 80 pts last year. Great 2-way player. He went 30 ranks after Perezhogin. You'll tell me that's not being overlooked? Bergeron, Vermette, also top liners and solid 2-way players. Picard great PP point man. Wouldnt he have been more useful this year than O'Burned? Lombardi's one of the best PK/faceoff C in the league. You think we'd never have won anything with those players instead of having drafted Hainsey (lost for nothing), Perezhogin (gone back home), Urquhart (never made it out of the ECHL), Milroy (where is he now?), Locke (Mr. AHL), Linhart (waste pick), etc.? It's a well-established fact that the Q has been overlooked. Compare it to Sweden. Quebec is to the Canada what Sweden is to Russia. But Detroit didnt really suffered from scouting and drafting primarily from Sweden, did they? They didnt get Zetterberg in the 4th round because they we certain he was the best player available and thought he was oh so good. They picked him because they were favorable to a territory they knew, players they had seen more often, and because other teams overlooked Sweden. In the 3rd, 4th round you just look for potential NHLers and chose those you know can make it. It's not because most teams dont draft from a certain territory there's nothing better to gain there. It has nothing to do with the potential of the territory and everything to do with simple management preferences. So what if the WHL and OHL have more players drafted? That's where 80% of the hockey staff in the league came from! Doesnt mean the product is automatically better. If the Habs management hadnt been so obsessed with drafting big talentless stiffs from the OHL & WHL and wasted 8 first rounders on the likes of Stevenson, Vallis, Bilodeau, Wilkie, Brown, Ryan, M. Higgins and Ward, we wouldnt have sucked balls for a decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 What should be done is totally irrelevant here, even if it means Colin's right. The point is that only one thing can be done. Hiring a totally anglo coach isn't an option. Apart from the local media's anger, the city will be trashed and rioted. Is it worth it to hire Don Lever over Bob Hartley? Anyway, any anglophone moving to Quebec is going to have to/should be trying to learn some French, regardless of whether he's working with the Habs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I'm sorry, but you seem to have a limited scope about what the Habs fandom in the province is and cares about; and what the sponsors are concerned with. If you trully believe that there is no politics behind the coaching position, that it doesnt affect the following of the team and therefore affects the excecutive decisions, then you're oblivious to the reality of the business. It's no coincidence that it's Boivin, the President, that says the coach has to speak French. The President dont get involved in hockey decisions, he gets involved in business decisions. When you hear him say what is going to happen, it's because he already made that business decision. That's just the way it is. Deny it as much as you want, it wont change anything. the fan base is strong... but it's fragile too. In 2000, when Gillet bought the team, it was really endengered. it took them some years of HEAVY marketing to bring the team back to respectability. And a BIG part of the "underlining" marketing strategy was that they had brought Yannick Perrault Stephane Quintal Joe Juneau etc... to montreal. do you see a pattern? French names, french speaking, to talk to THE FANS. for the fans to IDENTIFY themselves with the team. and it worked. starting that year, (Andre Savard as a GM, Therrien as a coach) the Canadiens had a more Québécois identity and they sold way way way way more tickets than the other years. from then, it started going up. more cash = spend more = more marketing = better spending budget for players salaries, etc. it might not be the "main" thing that started us up... but it was definitely part of the Andre Savard and Daniel Beauchamps (marketing vp)... and not for "political" reasons. not to please the media. just because THEY KNEW THEIR FANS... not the 10 000 fans out in ontario. no, the 5.5M french québécois fans. the bulk of the fan base. then Bob came in... then some prospects started developping. etc. but it started by going french. if you leave that "québec route"... and the team starts losing or has to start a rebuilding plan... people are already whinging that the captain is not french and that there are not enough québécois on the team... MANY will just quit on the team. yes you can call them yellow fans. you can say that they are not real Habs fans. etc. but they are the bulk of the fans still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 What should be done is totally irrelevant here, even if it means Colin's right. The point is that only one thing can be done. Hiring a totally anglo coach isn't an option. Apart from the local media's anger, the city will be trashed and rioted. Is it worth it to hire Don Lever over Bob Hartley? Anyway, any anglophone moving to Quebec is going to have to/should be trying to learn some French, regardless of whether he's working with the Habs. Don Lever has some + on his sheet. familiar face. allegedly said that if french was the only thing keeping him from the job, he'd learn it quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexstream Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Ugh, so much arguing for nothing. Reality #1: The Habs and it's sponsors (Bell, Desjardins, McDonald, Molson) market is Montreal and the province. That market is highly predominantly French-speaking. Marketing studies have proved for decades and decades that to appeal to the provincial market, you have to give them something they identify with. Truth of the matter is: the Habs coach is the person that receives most mediatic exposure in the province. He has to speak to the medias every day. It's inconceivable that every thing the coach says has to be translated every day. Inconceivable. Reality #2: The Habs are expected to be an entry door for Quebec-born players and staff. Fans around the province, medias and politicians expect it. The team already got flack and lost fans for not drafting or signing Quebec-born players in the latest years. Getting a non-French speaking coach will be the last straw for many more fans in the province. With the economy dwindling and entertainment dollars getting more and more scarce, Bell can't afford people dropping their cable because all they wanted was to watch the Habs on RDS and now they are fed up with the team getting a coach they can't identify with. You can whine and bitch and complain and argue and say whatever you want, if you ignore those 2 realities, chances are your opinion doesnt even matter in the first place. You're not the Habs' market. They dont have to please you. So bitch away. Those who matters dont care. The only thing I'm scared about is if BG quits and Boivin hires a new GM, that GM is a québécois... and they both decide to give a STRONG québec identity to the team... and to get blinded by the identity of the players over the talent and team needs. e.g. instead of drafting McDonagh like their scouting team is telling them to do, go draft Angelo... (I don't have a clue right now who's the better player... but from what I'm seeing, Mcdo is progressing while Angelo has yet to break something) or trade for Daniel Brière's 7M contract and be screwed with the cap and yet another diminutive center. I'm saying because I know that Gainey would never do that... However, if Boivin had a strong say in the team?! who knows what we'd end up doing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 The only thing I'm scared about is if BG quits and Boivin hires a new GM, that GM is a québécois... and they both decide to give a STRONG québec identity to the team... and to get blinded by the identity of the players over the talent and team needs. e.g. instead of drafting McDonagh like their scouting team is telling them to do, go draft Angelo... (I don't have a clue right now who's the better player... but from what I'm seeing, Mcdo is progressing while Angelo has yet to break something) or trade for Daniel Brière's 7M contract and be screwed with the cap and yet another diminutive center. I'm saying because I know that Gainey would never do that... However, if Boivin had a strong say in the team?! who knows what we'd end up doing... What you're describing right now is what Ronald Corey did in 1983 when he took over as President and hired Serge Savard as GM. The Habs were getting shifted on the identity front by the Nordiques and it was the Brewers War (Molson vs O'Keefe). In retrospect, it got us 2 Cups (oh, but we would suck with Francos, right? Yeah. We had 14 Francos on the roster in 1993...) This time, no Nords, no O'Keefe... Dont think there's any real need to go All-Quebec as much as in the past. Although when you look at the team and oftentimes only the local boys plays like they care, makes you wonder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 (edited) A well-established fact that the Q has been overlooked? Really? Only here in the province, nobody cares anywhere else. It's not an issue at GM meetings, it's not discussed anywhere else in North America, it's another example of poor Quebec, not being "represented". Show me a list of fast and tough forwards that were overlooked, it simply doesn't exist. You have it or you don't. Who's establishing that drivel anyway? Bertrand Raymond, Ron Fournier, RDS, or some hack at a lesser paper in small town Quebec? Teams spend alot of money on scouting, they know what they're doing. Edited March 22, 2009 by Habsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 This time, no Nords, no O'Keefe... Dont think there's any real need to go All-Quebec as much as in the past. Although when you look at the team and oftentimes only the local boys plays like they care, makes you wonder... actually the local boys don't seem to want to come here. including vinny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Hmmm... Ok, say in the last 10 years, Habs try to draft as many Quebec-born players as possible: 1999 draft: - Martin Grenier (45th oa) instead of A. Buturlin (39th oa) 2000 draft: - Antoine Vermette (55th oa) instead of Hainsey (13th) - Yanick Lehoux (86th oa) instead of Hossa (16th). 2001 draft: - Pascal Leclaire (8th oa) instead of Komisarek (7th oa), - Jason Pominville (55th oa) instead of Perezhogin (25th oa), - Stephane Veilleux (93rd) instead of Duncan Milroy (37th). Might still pick Plekanec 71st oa. Veilleux is a regular grinder in Minny for 4 years now. 2002 draft: - Franco-ontarian Daniel Paille (20th overall) or Montrealer Matthew Lombardi (90th oa) instead of Chris Higgins (14th), - Maxime Talbot (234rd) instead of Tomas Linhart (45th), 2003 draft: - Steve Bernier (16th oa) instead of A. Kostitsyn (10th), - Patrice Bergeron (45th) instead of Cory Urquhart - Alexandre Picard (the Ottawa D) (85th) instead of Ryan O'Byrne (79th oa) - Bruno Gervais (182th) instead of Corey Locke (113th) 2004 draft - Nick Fugere (114th) instead of Chipchura (18th). No Q players from that year made the NHL yet. 2005 draft - Luc Bourdon (10th oa) instead of Price (5th oa) 2006 draft - Claude Giroux (22nd oa) instead of Fisher (20th oa) Giroux plays for the Flyers already. 2007 draft - Angelo Esposito (20th) instead of McDonagh (12th) - David Perron (26th) instead of Pacioretty (22nd) QMJHL crap, really? Bergeron, Vermette, Pominville, Lombardi, Bernier, Veilleux, Paille, Talbot, Giroux & Perron are all in the NHL. Add Lapierre & Latendresse and you have a pretty good group of forwards, wouldnt you say? On defense we'd lack Komisarek, instead we'd have swift puck-moving D like Picard & Gervais. And Bourdon (God rest his soul) was a stud in the making. We wouldnt have Price, but we'd have Leclaire already. This is was muddles up the debate. Ignorance and preconveived ideas. It's BS like this that is going to make the Habs more laughable then then the Ballard leafs. or Don Cherry's Mississauga team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 actually the local boys don't seem to want to come here. including vinny. Vinny wants to play here more than anywhere else. Enrico Ciccone said so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Vinny wants to play here more than anywhere else. Enrico Ciccone said so... well if some guys agent (not vinny's)said so it must be true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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