jackp Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Boy am i thankful you aren't the GM!! 1. You are blaming a 21 year old kid with the hardest job in the NHL!?!? Yeah, he let in some weak goals, but he WASN'T THE REASON WHY THE HABS TANKED!! 2. If you compare him to marc André Fleury, then it must be a compliment. look at Fleury now in Pittsburgh!!(and he's 4 years oldder than Carey) 3. You don't even know what you're talking about! 1. Please, please, PLEASE get off the damn "He's only 21 years old" rant. This is the *NHL.* It is not Uncle Barney's development league!!! I couldn't care less what his age is. You either can or you can't. I'm not willing to give up 3 or 4 years of winning, just to develop Carey Price. Are you? And I disagree - he WAS a major factor as to why we tanked. His save percentage was .877 at the end. If you've ever played at any level, you know just what it does to you, when you work your ass off, and then your goalie lets in a soft one. We started a couple of games dominating the Bruins. Had he made a few key saves, this might have continued as the game went on. 2. So I guess you want Fleury on Team Canada during the Olympics next year, eh? I don't think so! 3. How can you tell if I don't know what I'm talking about. You made no effort whatsoever to answer any of the points I made about both Price and Halak. It's so facile, isn't it, to just say I don't know anything, than to try and at least refute some of the points I made. Notice that I DID deal with the points you made. I won't say that you don't know what you're talking about, but I will say that you're intellectually lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 All right then. I suppose you blame Carey for scoring only 6 goals in 4 games? I guess you will blame him also for not being able to score ONE SINGLE goal in 8 PP opportunities? I suppose you will blame Carey for a Lousy defensive corp? I suppose you will blame Price because the Habs weren't able to dominate the Bruins(physically)? What else you wanna lay on the kid's back?? It's because of incompetent armchair GM's like you why the Canadiens have such a hard time attracting free agents. They see and hear what people say and do and tell themselves they don't want to be in this kind of environment! Patrick FVC.KING Roy could have been in nets with this team, and we still would have lost the series!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 While it was not all Price's fault, you can't ignore some basic facts. 1. When your goalie sucks, the team in front starts to suck. They are afraid to take chances, they lose motivation, etc. A hot goalie can turn a team around in a hurry. 2. When the team doesn't think you are putting the best guy on the ice, why should they put out the best effort. 3. When you start playing favorites (and this applies to more then just Price) and don't have a direct effort equals reward system, a team breaks down. Let me be clear. There are top players who struggle, but the team is okay as they "owe" him, which buys them some slack. See Koivu. BUT... that only lasts so long. When Halak plays better, but doesn't get rewarded, he gets pissed. Some of the team realize that effort won't equal reward. This is deadly on a team. Add to that the fact that some guys (Komi) ask for a contract and get told no, I don't do that, they worry. they question their value. It messes them up. Some play better, many don't. When you leave half the team up in the air, you sow the seeds for both discontent and concern. This is not good. As they say, if you want to keep a guy, never let him see the horizon of July 1st. I believe that some of this was the key to our problems this year and they were all Gainey's doing. He needs to be accountable. If they don't fire him, or he doesn't just quit, then I hope he learns some lessons. Step one.. screw your stupid rule about not signing during the season. Two.. don't play favorites. If you backup is playing better, let him play. Would Halak have won us this series.. probably not, but we and the team will never know, becaue he was never given the chance well past the point when it was clear.. Price was not going to do it. When Gainey sends the message that getting him experience is more important then putting the best guys on the ice, then don't be surprised when the whole team plays like crap. They got the same memo.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 While it was not all Price's fault, you can't ignore some basic facts. 1. When your goalie sucks, the team in front starts to suck. They are afraid to take chances, they lose motivation, etc. A hot goalie can turn a team around in a hurry. 2. When the team doesn't think you are putting the best guy on the ice, why should they put out the best effort. 3. When you start playing favorites (and this applies to more then just Price) and don't have a direct effort equals reward system, a team breaks down. Agreed. All I'm saying is that Carey wasn teh only reason why the Habs lost. He was ONE of the reasons, but not the only one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Worst. Fans. Ever. And here's a supplement. From Laraque. «Avoir les meilleurs fans, ce n'est pas seulement avoir un édifice plein. Quand tu es un vrai fan, tu ne fais pas de chants pour ridiculiser l'entraîneur.» Laraque dit croire que le Canadien a plus de chances d'obtenir des joueurs par voie de transactions que par le biais du marché des joueurs autonomes. «Les joueurs autonomes utilisent Montréal pour faire monter les enchères, a-t-il précisé. «J'espère que la majorité des agents libres qu'on a ici vont revenir. Mais je n'ai vraiment aucune idée de l'équipe qu'on va avoir.» "Having the best fans is not just filling the building. When you're a real fan, you don't chant to mock the coach." Laraque then went on to say that Montreal would be better served improving the team through trade, and not through free agency. "UFA's use Montreal to raise the stakes." ~~ Looking forward to more discussion on the imminent arrivals of Bouwmeester, Gaborik, Hossa, et al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) And here's a supplement. From Laraque. "Having the best fans is not just filling the building. When you're a real fan, you don't chant to mock the coach." Laraque then went on to say that Montreal would be better served improving the team through trade, and not through free agency. "UFA's use Montreal to raise the stakes." ~~ Looking forward to more discussion on the imminent arrivals of Bouwmeester, Gaborik, Hossa, et al. The majority of fans are delusional. I am done responding to the whining and blame. When you offer no answers and recreate the same old base level arguments that have been tossed out by NHL dinosaurs year after year you might as well be talking like the teacher in Charlie Brown. Wonk wonk wonk Carey Price wonk wonk wonk fault wonk wonk wonk I know everything wonk wonk wonk YAWN Edited April 24, 2009 by Wamsley01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 And here's a supplement. From Laraque. "Having the best fans is not just filling the building. When you're a real fan, you don't chant to mock the coach." Laraque then went on to say that Montreal would be better served improving the team through trade, and not through free agency. "UFA's use Montreal to raise the stakes." ~~ Looking forward to more discussion on the imminent arrivals of Bouwmeester, Gaborik, Hossa, et al. You're late, I quoted him live last night! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) While it was not all Price's fault, you can't ignore some basic facts. 1. When your goalie sucks, the team in front starts to suck. They are afraid to take chances, they lose motivation, etc. A hot goalie can turn a team around in a hurry. 2. When the team doesn't think you are putting the best guy on the ice, why should they put out the best effort. 3. When you start playing favorites (and this applies to more then just Price) and don't have a direct effort equals reward system, a team breaks down. Let me be clear. There are top players who struggle, but the team is okay as they "owe" him, which buys them some slack. See Koivu. BUT... that only lasts so long. When Halak plays better, but doesn't get rewarded, he gets pissed. Some of the team realize that effort won't equal reward. This is deadly on a team. Add to that the fact that some guys (Komi) ask for a contract and get told no, I don't do that, they worry. they question their value. It messes them up. Some play better, many don't. When you leave half the team up in the air, you sow the seeds for both discontent and concern. This is not good. As they say, if you want to keep a guy, never let him see the horizon of July 1st. I believe that some of this was the key to our problems this year and they were all Gainey's doing. He needs to be accountable. If they don't fire him, or he doesn't just quit, then I hope he learns some lessons. Step one.. screw your stupid rule about not signing during the season. Two.. don't play favorites. If you backup is playing better, let him play. Would Halak have won us this series.. probably not, but we and the team will never know, becaue he was never given the chance well past the point when it was clear.. Price was not going to do it. When Gainey sends the message that getting him experience is more important then putting the best guys on the ice, then don't be surprised when the whole team plays like crap. They got the same memo.... Wow, exceptionally well put! I also don't know if we would have won the series with Halak - probably not, but you never know. As you stated, we never got the chance to find out. Oh, and check this, the BS Gainey is giving is that "it wouldn't have been fair to Halak to play him as he hadn't played in a couple of weeks." Just that statement should tell you something about Gainey. I just finished watching Pitt/Philly tonight and Biron kept Philly in the game during the 1st period. They were outshot 15-5 and were swarming Biron. Philly came back after that poor start and won 3-0. If that had been Price, Philly would have been down at least 2 goals. Do you really think they would have rebounded as well as they did, had that been the case? If you do, you've never played at any organized level. Edited April 24, 2009 by jackp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 All right then. I suppose you blame Carey for scoring only 6 goals in 4 games? I guess you will blame him also for not being able to score ONE SINGLE goal in 8 PP opportunities? I suppose you will blame Carey for a Lousy defensive corp? I suppose you will blame Price because the Habs weren't able to dominate the Bruins(physically)? What else you wanna lay on the kid's back?? It's because of incompetent armchair GM's like you why the Canadiens have such a hard time attracting free agents. They see and hear what people say and do and tell themselves they don't want to be in this kind of environment! Patrick FVC.KING Roy could have been in nets with this team, and we still would have lost the series!! You just don't get the main point - a team SAGS when they work their asses off and end up down a goal or 2. Koivu even hinted at that in one of his interviews. Hockey, like all sports, is a game of momentum. We would have scored more if our goalie had made some big saves while we were playing well. And make no mistake about it, we had long stretches when we were playing very well... A struggling goalie just KILLS team momentum. Ask ANYONE who's actually played the game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoZed Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 You just don't get the main point - a team SAGS when they work their asses off and end up down a goal or 2. Koivu even hinted at that in one of his interviews. Hockey, like all sports, is a game of momentum. We would have scored more if our goalie had made some big saves while we were playing well. And make no mistake about it, we had long stretches when we were playing very well... A struggling goalie just KILLS team momentum. Ask ANYONE who's actually played the game... +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbhatt Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Would Halak have won us this series.. probably not I'll go out on a limb and upgrade that probably to definitely not; this team had too many holes to win this series, through injuries and the failure to acquire key personnel that would have made this team a bona fide contender. I will however say that I think Jaro would have outplayed Price, and probably would have stolen a game based on his body of work. But stealing one game just to avoid getting swept isn't the main reason I wanted to see Halak in there; the main reason is that he DESERVED to play based on his performance while Price was out. The kid has been treated like shit, and it's just plain wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 You're late, I quoted him live last night! Well criminy! That would have required me having watched the game and been around afterwards. I was out playing soccer, having a beer, etc. I didn't get home until late. I mean, really. Game 4 of a probable sweep, or life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I'll go out on a limb and upgrade that probably to definitely not; this team had too many holes to win this series, through injuries and the failure to acquire key personnel that would have made this team a bona fide contender. I will however say that I think Jaro would have outplayed Price, and probably would have stolen a game based on his body of work. But stealing one game just to avoid getting swept isn't the main reason I wanted to see Halak in there; the main reason is that he DESERVED to play based on his performance while Price was out. The kid has been treated like shit, and it's just plain wrong. I agree with your assessment. Worse case, Jaro wins one or two games in amazing form and teams call Gainey this summer to inquire about that great young backup we have. Gainey could at least do Jaro a favor and send him to a team that wants him and get a decent return in exchange. He then gets a vet to backup Price and we all move on happy. As long as we have a guy like Jaro who wants to be number 1, Gainey will see him as a threat to Price and screw him, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) You just don't get the main point - a team SAGS when they work their asses off and end up down a goal or 2. Koivu even hinted at that in one of his interviews. Hockey, like all sports, is a game of momentum. We would have scored more if our goalie had made some big saves while we were playing well. And make no mistake about it, we had long stretches when we were playing very well... A struggling goalie just KILLS team momentum. Ask ANYONE who's actually played the game... -1 That's not what happened at all. I saw Habs dominate the Bruins in the first periods of the last two games, but it wasn't Price's fault that the mention shifted each time. It was a mixture bad penalties and poor defensive zone coverage. Since you're asking anyone who actually plays the game (myself), I can tell you that when a team is so determined to be on the offense, your defensive game will suffer. Just because the Habs were dominating in the offensive zone, their defensive game was still weak. You just don't notice it until Boston breaks into the zone. But when they do, the Habs were unable to react. Price made a couple of big saves, but eventually he'll need some help from the rest of his team. Price probably could have played better, but like I keep saying, trying to pin these loses on him is downright ignorant. It's a team game because it requires a team effort. If your goalie is not at his best, it's up to your defense to keep the pressure off him, and vice versa. When your defense/goalie let in a goal or two, it's up to your offense to get them back. Unfortunately, nothing was working as it should have. Edited April 24, 2009 by ForumGhost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 -1 That's not what happened at all. I saw Habs dominate the Bruins in the first periods of the last two games, but it wasn't Price's fault that the mention shifted each time. It was a mixture bad penalties and poor defensive zone coverage. Since you're asking anyone who actually plays the game (myself), I can tell you that when a team is so determined to be on the offense, your defensive game will suffer. Just because the Habs were dominating in the offensive zone, their defensive game was still weak. You just don't notice it until Boston breaks into the zone. But when they do, the Habs were unable to react. Price made a couple of big saves, but eventually he'll need some help from the rest of his team. Your argument seems to make sense... but it doesn't take into account the .878 save percentage. Anyway, you Price lovers don't have to worry. Gainey called him a thoroughbred today so Price's job is safe, no matter how he performs. (It's not gonna be so great for us Habs fans though.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) Your argument seems to make sense... but it doesn't take into account the .878 save percentage. Anyway, you Price lovers don't have to worry. Gainey called him a thoroughbred today so Price's job is safe, no matter how he performs. (It's not gonna be so great for us Habs fans though.) I'm definitely not a Price Lover, but I can recognize a good goalie when i see one. Anyone notice Mason's performance in the playoffs this year? a .870 save%, a GAA of 4.41, 4 straight losses...and yet nobody in Columbus is blaming a 20 year old kid for the TEAM'S performance in this years playoffs!!! Over trhere, they are able to say that they were beaten by a better team. Over there they can say that the team just wasn't good enough against a stronger opponent. And Montreal and it's fans are supposed to be knowledgeable??? But over here, we are willing to crucify a young kid(who's has been good at times and bad at times) after only 18 months in the NHL?? I can just imagine how good he'll be when he's 24-25. I just hope that idiots fans and idiot reporters won't run him out of town before he makes it to his prime! Edited April 24, 2009 by Habsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Yea, i mentioned the same thing on Mason. All of sudden he blows because his team gets dominated by the Wings. He saw more scoring opportunities in 4 games then he did during a month of regular season action. Obviously if Columbus was smart they get rid of that crappy goalie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 I'm definitely not a Price Lover, but I can recognize a good goalie when i see one. Anyone notice Mason's performance in the playoffs this year? a .870 save%, a GAA of 4.41, 4 straight losses...and yet nobody in Columbus is blaming a 20 year old kid for the TEAM'S performance in this years playoffs!!! Over trhere, they are able to say that they were beaten by a better team. Over there they can say that the team just wasn't good enough against a stronger opponent. And Montreal and it's fans are supposed to be knowledgeable??? But over here, we are willing to crucify a young kid(who's has been good at times and bad at times) after only 18 months in the NHL?? I can just imagine how good he'll be when he's 24-25. I just hope that idiots fans and idiot reporters won't run him out of town before he makes it to his prime! I didn't watch that series but if Mason's save percentage was .870, then he WAS largely responsible for their loss. As to the Columbus fans... they were happy just to get into the playoffs and, let's face it, they know very little about hockey. To compare them with Montreal fans is ludicrous. Even the players say that Montreal fans are the most knowledgeable in the NHL. You're just not happy with their collective opinion of Price right now. As far as "crucifying a young kid" is concerned... Patrick Roy won a Cup in his first year. So did Dryden. You're living in a dream world if you think Price is suddenly gonna get a lot better. People don't change too much. Price will continue to be a hot and cold goalie, who has a hard time facing pressure. JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonus Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 People don't change too much. Price will continue to be a hot and cold goalie, who has a hard time facing pressure. JMHO It is just your opinion because it is objectively wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Puck Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 (edited) I didn't watch that series but if Mason's save percentage was .870, then he WAS largely responsible for their loss. As to the Columbus fans... they were happy just to get into the playoffs and, let's face it, they know very little about hockey. To compare them with Montreal fans is ludicrous. Even the players say that Montreal fans are the most knowledgeable in the NHL. You're just not happy with their collective opinion of Price right now. As far as "crucifying a young kid" is concerned... Patrick Roy won a Cup in his first year. So did Dryden. You're living in a dream world if you think Price is suddenly gonna get a lot better. People don't change too much. Price will continue to be a hot and cold goalie, who has a hard time facing pressure. JMHO Right, stats do tell the whole story. In fact, the stats prove that the real reason Montreal lost was their 0.054 shooting percentage. To say nothing of their 1.5 goals per game. Goalies just sag when they see this sort of performance by their team's forwards. As far as people never changing, once again you hit the nail on the head. There really haven't been any good NHL level goalies who didn't win the cup in their first year (or at least their second). Actually, if you look through history you will only find a one or two goalies who hadn't won the cup by age 22 and still managed to change themselves into worthwhile goalies. Only people living in a dream world can't see this. This even points out how truly bad our forwards were when you consider they were playing a goalie who never even made the playoffs until he was 33. Edited April 25, 2009 by Peter Puck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackp Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 As far as people never changing, once again you hit the nail on the head. There really haven't been any good NHL level goalies who didn't win the cup in their first year (or at least their second). Actually, if you look through history you will only find a one or two goalies who hadn't won the cup by age 22 and still managed to change themselves into worthwhile goalies. Only people living in a dream world can't see this. This even points out how truly bad our forwards were when you consider they were playing a goalie who never even made the playoffs until he was 33. Exactly. Now this is not saying that we would have won the series had Price played better or had Halak played, but we might have. In 1993, Roy was not too good in the first 2 games against Quebec and we were down 2-0. Then, he caught on fire, and guess what followed? Our whole TEAM starting playing better because Roy standing on his head was inspiring them. The goalie is like the pitcher in baseball. Everything starts there. If you don't have it (great goaltending) then you don't have a chance. Right now, in the Philly series, Biron out-playing Fleury is putting Philly back in the series, and if it continues like it's going (with the goalies), Philly is gonna win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 I like drama. It's my favourite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForumGhost Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 Right, stats do tell the whole story. In fact, the stats prove that the real reason Montreal lost was their 0.054 shooting percentage. To say nothing of their 1.5 goals per game. Goalies just sag when they see this sort of performance by their team's forwards. As far as people never changing, once again you hit the nail on the head. There really haven't been any good NHL level goalies who didn't win the cup in their first year (or at least their second). Actually, if you look through history you will only find a one or two goalies who hadn't won the cup by age 22 and still managed to change themselves into worthwhile goalies. Only people living in a dream world can't see this. This even points out how truly bad our forwards were when you consider they were playing a goalie who never even made the playoffs until he was 33. Ummm, what are you guys talking about? So, if a goalie doesn't win the cup by 22, he will never be a good goalie? You mean like Luongo? Nabokov? Kiprusoff? Man, those guys sure do suck, don't they? jackp, save percentage doesn't mean a whole lot. What about when a goalie faces 20 shots in a game, but most of those chances are real high-quality chances? Compare that to a goalie who has to face 35 shots, but they are all perimeter shots because he's more well defended. You see how that can easily skew the stats? Also, so what if Habs got beat by Thomas who only made the playoffs when he was 33? Does that make him any less of a goalie? No, it doesn't. Despite what people say on these boards that are obviously anti-Boston, he is a great goalie and will probably be a Vezina finalist, possibly winner. And since we are so interested with stats suddenly, I should note that he finished 1st in SV% and GAA in the regular season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 Exactly. Now this is not saying that we would have won the series had Price played better or had Halak played, but we might have. In 1993, Roy was not too good in the first 2 games against Quebec and we were down 2-0. Then, he caught on fire, and guess what followed? Our whole TEAM starting playing better because Roy standing on his head was inspiring them. The goalie is like the pitcher in baseball. Everything starts there. If you don't have it (great goaltending) then you don't have a chance. Right now, in the Philly series, Biron out-playing Fleury is putting Philly back in the series, and if it continues like it's going (with the goalies), Philly is gonna win. wrong again pits scored 5 in a row to win, you're not having a good day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 I didn't watch that series but if Mason's save percentage was .870, then he WAS largely responsible for their loss. As to the Columbus fans... they were happy just to get into the playoffs and, let's face it, they know very little about hockey. To compare them with Montreal fans is ludicrous. Even the players say that Montreal fans are the most knowledgeable in the NHL. You're just not happy with their collective opinion of Price right now. As far as "crucifying a young kid" is concerned... Patrick Roy won a Cup in his first year. So did Dryden. You're living in a dream world if you think Price is suddenly gonna get a lot better. People don't change too much. Price will continue to be a hot and cold goalie, who has a hard time facing pressure. JMHO You do realize that there is one goaltender in post expansion history who won a Cup before 21 right? And only 3 goaltenders in 40+ years won a Cup during their rookie year. How did Brodeur, Hasek, Belfour, Parent, Smith, Fuhr, Moog, Richter etc do at the age of 21? how did they do in their first year? How did their careers turn out? Ken Dryden was 23 years old and gave up 26 goals in 7 games and WON! It doesn't hurt when your shitty team scores 28 goals in the process. I wonder how Price would have looked this series if the Habs had averaged 4 goals per game. To limit a 21 year olds potential as a fait acompli is absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.