Michael Sabia - Habs coach language related

[KoZed]

(which before that, had been disproved by Mathias Brunet : showing that under Timmins up to now, we've drafted more % of french speaking players than, e.g. under AS)

Hail Brunet, but he's actually off in his stats. Probably because he counted the 03 draft as being under Gainey even though it was really Savard that scouted and drafted the players since Gainey wasnt even a month old into his GM job then.

Anyways, here's the %

Gainey/Timmins (04 to 08): 7 on 36 picks = 19%

Savard/Timmins (01 to 03): 5 on 25 picks = 20%

Houle/? (96 to 00): 13 on 52 picks = 25%

Savard/Boudrias (83 to 95): 46 on 152 = 30%

The funny trend is that they all hit pay dirt when they went to the QMJHL with their second (round) pick (Lemieux in 83, Richer in 84, Brunet in 86, Desjardins in 87, Brisebois in 89, Theodore in 94, Garon in 96, Ribeiro in 98, Lapierre in 03, Latendresse in 05)

[MAK]

Actually Saku speaks pretty good french, but chooses not to in public, which is his right.

alot of people speak other languages but choose not to speak it publicly fearing of making a mistake. hence the reason why people often say they speak better english/french when drunk. they lose inhibition. the more I drink the better my english is, the worse my french becomes

as for saku, I understand his wife and kids speak good french.

I wish he'd speak a bit in french but I can understand why he doesn't.

Edited May 6, 2009 by marky_and_komi

[sbhatt]

I don't know man, it's the whole Maurice Richard thing.

l'Histoire d'un peuple you know.

Oh, for the love of God, this is getting really old really fast; it's this kind of shit that gives Quebecers a bad name...the constant WHINING and insecurity on the language issue.

Wanna talk history? Fine, we'll talk history: Wolfe's army defeated Montcalm's army, and over the next year four years, all of New France's armies had been routed and her posessions conceded to Britain. If that didn't wipe out the French language and culture, then nothing will....so why there's so much insecurity and crying about the issue is a concept I just don't understand. It's bloody ridiculous.

Actually Saku speaks pretty good french, but chooses not to in public, which is his right.

I'm no fan of Saku Koivu to put it mildly, but I have to admit that I admire him for standing his ground on that silly issue.

[KoZed]

[alexstream]

Hail Brunet, but he's actually off in his stats. Probably because he counted the 03 draft as being under Gainey even though it was really Savard that scouted and drafted the players since Gainey wasnt even a month old into his GM job then.

Anyways, here's the %

Gainey/Timmins (04 to 08): 7 on 36 picks = 19%

Savard/Timmins (01 to 03): 5 on 25 picks = 20%

Houle/? (96 to 00): 13 on 52 picks = 25%

Savard/Boudrias (83 to 95): 46 on 152 = 30%

The funny trend is that they all hit pay dirt when they went to the QMJHL with their second (round) pick (Lemieux in 83, Richer in 84, Brunet in 86, Desjardins in 87, Brisebois in 89, Theodore in 94, Garon in 96, Ribeiro in 98, Lapierre in 03, Latendresse in 05)

but not always... Urquart in 03 and Lambert in 02

and actually... maybe Gainey is down 1% on A. Savard... but Savard stretched it by getting Urquart over a lot, sorry A LOT of BPA players... was it because of the red hair? he could have gone with Fanpuck at that account!

Taking Urquart to me is as inexcusable as taking Eric Chouinard.

I mean, you can debate a guy like Matt Higgins, Turner Stevenson, etc (big successful junior players, highly rated at the time)... you could also debate A. Kost forever...

but Urquart? lanky, tall, no particular talent, not a good skater, not physical... I can't recall, but I'm not even sure he was well rated by scouts in general. That's not debatable! He sucked then and he sucks even more now!

all that while Pattie Bergeron was laying in the backyard, waiting to be picked up...

[MAK]

but not always... Urquart in 03 and Lambert in 02

and actually... maybe Gainey is down 1% on A. Savard... but Savard stretched it by getting Urquart over a lot, sorry A LOT of BPA players... was it because of the red hair? he could have gone with Fanpuck at that account!

Taking Urquart to me is as inexcusable as taking Eric Chouinard.

I mean, you can debate a guy like Matt Higgins, Turner Stevenson, etc (big successful junior players, highly rated at the time)... you could also debate A. Kost forever...

but Urquart? lanky, tall, no particular talent, not a good skater, not physical... I can't recall, but I'm not even sure he was well rated by scouts in general. That's not debatable! He sucked then and he sucks even more now!

all that while Pattie Bergeron was laying in the backyard, waiting to be picked up...

and savard mentionned that bergeron was never on their radar...shame.

Kostitsyn has all the tools to be great. he just doesnt have a great tool box.

Had Savard really been the GM in 03 we would've picked getzlaf...or so he says.

[alexstream]

Oh, for the love of God, this is getting really old really fast; it's this kind of shit that gives Quebecers a bad name...the constant WHINING and insecurity on the language issue.

Wanna talk history? Fine, we'll talk history: Wolfe's army defeated Montcalm's army, and over the next year four years, all of New France's armies had been routed and her posessions conceded to Britain. If that didn't wipe out the French language and culture, then nothing will....so why there's so much insecurity and crying about the issue is a concept I just don't understand. It's bloody ridiculous.

I'm no fan of Saku Koivu to put it mildly, but I have to admit that I admire him for standing his ground on that silly issue.

that's exactly for guys like you that I started my thread with a diclaimer... cause you don't understand anything...

I'm not really the most sentimental francophone regarding "national (i.e. Quebec) identity" but I do understand that reality and I do acknowledge its existence.

[the following is only an example of what some people could tell you about that part of Qc history]

What Québec lived with Maurice Richard and the big riot that followed was a "national" revolution. That was a statement to the dominant english class that they were tired of being "abused" and that they would stand up for themselves.

And it worked.

You can find french canadian people throughout all classes of Qc and EVEN Canada society. They are not stuck to the lower classes anymore as they were back then.

It's really a sensible issue for some people over here... but that, you can't understand, cause you've surely never been here and you never discussed with "un nationaliste québécois".

I'm not puting any personal opinon forth about the "national" issue. I'm just telling you that MANY (as high as 49.9% in 1995) think that way. But that, you can't understand as long as you are deniying that there is another reality than yours, in your narrow minded part of the country.

[alexstream]

and savard mentionned that bergeron was never on their radar...shame.

Kostitsyn has all the tools to be great. he just doesnt have a great tool box.

Had Savard really been the GM in 03 we would've picked getzlaf...or so he says.

no way... unless it's timmins who really pushed for A. Kost...

but when Gainey came in, he was 1 year away from hockey and didn't have a clue about the draft. he read a cue card when asked about A. Kost and could barely spell his name! (exaggeration)

[ForumGhost]

that's exactly for guys like you that I started my thread with a diclaimer... cause you don't understand anything...

I'm not really the most sentimental francophone regarding "national (i.e. Quebec) identity" but I do understand that reality and I do acknowledge its existence.

[the following is only an example of what some people could tell you about that part of Qc history]

What Québec lived with Maurice Richard and the big riot that followed was a "national" revolution. That was a statement to the dominant english class that they were tired of being "abused" and that they would stand up for themselves.

And it worked.

You can find french canadian people throughout all classes of Qc and EVEN Canada society. They are not stuck to the lower classes anymore as they were back then.

It's really a sensible issue for some people over here... but that, you can't understand, cause you've surely never been here and you never discussed with "un nationaliste québécois".

I'm not puting any personal opinon forth about the "national" issue. I'm just telling you that MANY (as high as 49.9% in 1995) think that way. But that, you can't understand as long as you are deniying that there is another reality than yours, in your narrow minded part of the country.

The problem is that it's clearly effecting the hockey team when it shouldn't.

[alexstream]

The problem is that it's clearly effecting the hockey team when it shouldn't.

you might have a point there

Gainey doesn't manage that way. Timmins doesn't draft that way.

but Rejean Tremblay and his 3.5M supporters think that way and might have an impact on the hockey team somewhere in the equation.

[Fanpuck33]

I'm not puting any personal opinon forth about the "national" issue. I'm just telling you that MANY (as high as 49.9% in 1995) think that way. But that, you can't understand as long as you are deniying that there is another reality than yours, in your narrow minded part of the country.

Wait a minute, you're calling us narrow minded? If the people of Quebec would rather have a crappy French coach than a winning English coach, then THEY are the narrow minded ones.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Wait a minute, you're calling us narrow minded? If the people of Quebec would rather have a crappy French coach than a winning English coach, then THEY are the narrow minded ones.

For what it's worth, I think it IS pathological and self-defeating to see the Montreal Canadiens as an affirmative action program for francophones. All that does is create a vicious circle of mediocrity, where the organization you're looking to to represent your nation is unable to give you the glory that the nation wants from it.

However, people need to understand where that pathology comes from. For 200 years the French Canadians were a genuinely oppressed, marginalized, vulnerable, and humiliated people in their own province. They were systematically improverished and subordinated in the Quebec economy, marginal in Ottawa, and often surrounded by visible manifestations of the power of the English over their own society (e.g., unilingual English signs all over Montreal). This is no longer the case (Quebec is now only 'oppressed' in the abstruse realms of Canadian constitutional theory, which no one outside a circle of a few hundred intellectuals really understands or gives a damn about), but it can take generations to fully overcome the patterns of thought and self-images left over from centuries of marginalization. The québécois remain extremely attuned to issues of collective dignity. And it's understandable that they are.

That's why it's a good thing that we have excellent bilingual candidates for this job. The whole thing is a moot point, and I don't know why we're arguing about it.

[kenadian]

Why stop at the coach? ...............maybe it's time to ice a full team of guys that can speak french

[Habsfan]

The whole thing is a moot point, and I don't know why we're arguing about it.

Agreed. I'm glad to see that there are very qualified guys like Hartley(bilingual) and Crawford(who spoke french in his days as coach of the nordiques) out there!

[platypus]

There is a law in Quebec that the language of the workplace must be french. Playing, coaching and managing the Canadiens should therefore be dictated by this mandate.

What occurs in practice however in an entirely different thing. Given the necessity of fielding a multi-national team in order to compete, there is a difficulty in communication between players, between players and coach. In practice, only english, being the language of business, can be used in the context of modern sports teams to learn to play together.

The only requirement would be that a coach speak english and that all international players are able to speak and/or understand english. That is of course if the only objective were to field a competitive, coherent team.

We know that is not the case. The hockey club is at its core a business and public relations play a prominent role in keeping the customers (fans) content and involved. That would mean an ability to communicate in the language of the majority for a population sensitive to issues of linguistic fragility. This means that french speaking is an absolute for the coach who is to act as the spokesperson for each performance (game). Winning is secondary in the province of Quebec to all things related to the proper upkeep of the french identity. And if this is what the customer wants, the customer must get.

...I've only realized how ingrained certain attitudes have become. The comments by Boivin, the raucous fervour over Lecavalier, the criticism of benching or trading away french players, have cemented in me a belief that the Canadiens are no longer about winning without prejudice - instead, the so-called majority seem to want to win only if it can showcase a french player or coach as the sun by which all the planets aligned in harmonious orbit.

I'm saddened by the constancy of criticism relating to this ancient hockey club. I'm disillusioned by the obvious impact such criticism has on the ability of the club to progress in the cyclical pattern of greatness and crappiness and instead has it on a course of mediocrity as its future platform. I'm angry that I am in the minority in wanting the club to win without the issue of language pervading its soul. To reduce the coaching candidate base by whether he can speak french or not is consistent with all I've experienced living in Quebec, and it too is over-correction of the historical repression.

But if the french really want to continue every year with linguistic criticism and demands, perhaps there is should be a further push. Let those who demand a french coach be consistent. Let that demand filter to the players. Let it filter to all management and scouting. Make practices in french. It CAN be done. Through trade, all non-francophone players could be replaced easily. Drafting could also be all francophone through pick and trade. Let us make it a grand experiment in how a people, believing in their own hockey superiority, field a team of their own image.

And at that point, perhaps I can let go my own attachment to a team and a fan base that hold such fond memories because at that point, they will resemble nothing of kind of the team I once knew. And I will wonder how a people would rather have Lecavalier than a joyously competitively player like Ovechkin (when compared at their peaks) simply because of a name.

-john

an allophone from Quebec

[alexstream]

Wait a minute, you're calling us narrow minded? If the people of Quebec would rather have a crappy French coach than a winning English coach, then THEY are the narrow minded ones.

not you

goddamn fanpuck, always the same eh?

[Fanpuck33]

not you

goddamn fanpuck, always the same eh?

Then please explain further. It sounds to me that you're saying people who don't understand Quebec are narrow minded.

[alexstream]

Then please explain further. It sounds to me that you're saying people who don't understand Quebec are narrow minded.

lol now you are narrow minded though.

you always take it so personal even when it's not directed to you, no wonder why you're always debating...

anyhow, no, you are somehow open minded when it comes to understanding other realities than Columbus', so that was certainly not meant to you. your argumentation on that topic has been healthy from the start... you don't try to deny facts of the quebec culture and people. etc.

now stop making me do that, I just puked in my mouth. Too much compliments to fanpuck in a day = :puke:

[Fanpuck33]

lol now you are narrow minded though.

you always take it so personal even when it's not directed to you, no wonder why you're always debating...

anyhow, no, you are somehow open minded when it comes to understanding other realities than Columbus', so that was certainly not meant to you. your argumentation on that topic has been healthy from the start... you don't try to deny facts of the quebec culture and people. etc.

now stop making me do that, I just puked in my mouth. Too much compliments to fanpuck in a day = :puke:

I wasn't offended, I found it amusing. I still don't know who you are calling narrow minded.

[JoeLassister]

I wasn't offended, I found it amusing. I still don't know who you are calling narrow minded.

Those who still claim that Québec's french history is getting old and that we should get over it...

[alexstream]

Those who still claim that Québec's french history is getting old and that we should get over it...

[BCHabnut]

This conversation is fun. What I am gathering from everyone, is that we all recognize the importance of the French language in Quebec. I for one embrace it. I am western, and I understand the frustration of Francophones when discussing this subject. I understand it for a different reason. In the west, I often hear people venting because Quebec is so insistent that the language is so important. I embrace different cultures in society, and reject assimilation of the corpporate monster that has spread like an infection throughout the world. When I was in Quebec, loved it so much, because I felt like I was insulated from the world of big box stores and sameness that I find in so many North American cities. What I also think we can all agree on is that if an Anglo coach were hired, he would probably be accepted if he said Merci, the first interview, then expanded, and throughout his interviews showed an honest effort at communicating in the native language of the province. It is this effort, which should be applauded.

[Fanpuck33]

I guess I just don't see how asking Quebec to set aside their culture for the good of the team is being narrow minded. An English speaking coach isn't going to destroy the French culture. I guess maybe some people just aren't saying that the right way and it's rubbing people the wrong way. When you think about it, demanding that a coach be French speaking is a slap in the face to the equality that francophones fought to create.

Personally, I would take much more pride in a winner than a loser, no matter what language he speaks. The captain and best player on the Columbus Crew doesn't speak English, but they won the championship. I'm much prouder of that than I would be if we had a bunch of Ohio kids out there losing all the time. I was proud of Ohio watching Dan Fritsche play, but I'm far more proud of the team making the playoffs without him.

What I also think we can all agree on is that if an Anglo coach were hired, he would probably be accepted if he said Merci, the first interview, then expanded, and throughout his interviews showed an honest effort at communicating in the native language of the province. It is this effort, which should be applauded.

Agreed 100%. I've said all along that an English speaking coach would be fine as long as he learned French and at least made an effort to communicate in the language. It would show the proper respect to the province and I think it's only fair that a person making a living in the province speak the language. The coach should adapt to the people, not the other way around.

[Trizzak]

Why stop at a French speaking coach? Why not have every press conference start with the coach yelling "Vive le Québec libre!" ?

[Chris]

I don't care if Coco the chimp coaches the team and uses sign language as long as he can motivate those lazy slugs to play hard for 60 minutes.

All fans really want is a good solid effort every night. Not 1 good year out of 15.