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Immediate bust for a later boom?


zumpano21

Who's willing to sacrifice?  

31 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you tolerate multiple losing seasons in order to produce a better Canadiens team in the future?

    • Yes
      9
    • No
      22


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It seems to me that there is pressure in the Montreal market to perform well every season. In the long run, I think this ends up procuring a great deal of middle level talent without any true superstars or real success. Is this the best way to conduct business? Is it possible to win a Cup these days without a Datsyuk, Getzlaf, Crosby or Staal? I'm not convinced.

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It seems to me that there is pressure in the Montreal market to perform well every season. In the long run, I think this ends up procuring a great deal of middle level talent without any true superstars or real success. Is this the best way to conduct business? Is it possible to win a Cup these days without a Datsyuk, Getzlaf, Crosby or Staal? I'm not convinced.

Datsyuk drafted 176th getzlaff 19th what is your point since we could have drafted them both

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Datsyuk drafted 176th getzlaff 19th what is your point since we could have drafted them both

You're missing the larger point of my post for the exact letter. What I alluded to is that these are players of the highest calibre and most have won Stanley Cups. Such players, on a probability basis, are most likely to be acquired through a top 5 draft pick.

Edited by zumpano21
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Datsyuk drafted 176th getzlaff 19th what is your point since we could have drafted them both

patrick kane drafted 1st

toews 3rd

crosby 1st

malkin 2n

ovechkin 1st

backstom 4th

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how many 1st 2nd 3rd picks has tampa had and were did they finish?

islanders?

i could go on but the point is 1st round draft choices are simply easy drafts, how about Detroit, had a lot of 1st overalls have they? Not everyone takes the pittsburgh path.

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patrick kane drafted 1st

toews 3rd

crosby 1st

malkin 2n

ovechkin 1st

backstom 4th

I'll play Devil's Advocate:

Florida:

Weiss 4th

Bouwmeester 3rd

Horton 3rd

Columbus:

Klesla 4th

Leclaire 8th

Nash 1st

Zherdev 4th

Picard 8th

Brule 6th

Brule 6th

Voracek 7th

Filatov 6th

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Didn't we already do this from like 1995 to 2002? Maybe it was more mediocrity than bust, but this is why the Canadiens supposedly have all their young talent

They need to draft better, thats all. Or somehow get ahold of a franchise centre

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For starters with the lottery, you can't be sure where you'll end up drafting.

Also, drafting is speculative. Some years are better than others, sometimes it's even eras. 1995 to 2002 were 8 pretty slim years for drafting, interceded with 2 great years in 97 and 98. 2004 had 2 generational talents (Ovechkin and Malkin) and then a whole lot of projects, and it started a whole new era (2004 to 2009) of talent-rich prospects. Those are hard to foresee.

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Considering we got Komi with a good pick but now risk losing him before he hits his prime, because of a questionable policy of not re-signing our guys, I think we ought to change that policy before we talk about how the draft might help us. Plus we had our chance to grab a star with the 5th we used on Price, I always thought we blew it right there, goalies are a breed apart and who knows how they will turn out. (not suggesting Price is a bust, just saying goalies are a crap shoot, and Tim Thomas was in beer leagues not long ago, so why gamble a 5th?)

Finally, the 100th was the supposed to be the triumph of a "five-year plan" hatched by a great hockey mind. So, no, I don't want to try another five-year plan. I'm friggin' tired of waiting I don't want to be in a walker before we get a team that can skate.

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One perspective to consider is a team like Chicago. They've been rebuilding for a while, started with Seabrook and Barker and finished with Toews, Kane and Versteeg more recently. Although they were not a good team at the start of the process, there was a quiet anticipation about them. People knew that they were going to turn it around eventually. For me, I think that this can be an exciting process with great dividends for fans. My thoughts are that Montreal is too greedy for immediate turnarounds. It's like buying stock. Everyone's looking for a quick profit but the only truth is to buy and hold for the long term.

I think that we've tried to rebuild recently but it didn't quite work out. There's not enough prime talent on the team right now (save Price, Komisarek, Markov and Higgins) and we should reconsider our course or end up like Calgary, for instance.

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One perspective to consider is a team like Chicago. They've been rebuilding for a while, started with Seabrook and Barker and finished with Toews, Kane and Versteeg more recently.

They traded for Versteeg (was a 5th rounder from Boston).

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The Habs have enough young talent on the farm and on the NHL team itself. They are NOT far off from actually being very competitive, and for a number of years too. They need to start giving more of this team over to the kids...

Frankly, I'm starting to jump on the get rid of Kovalev, Koivu and Lang bandwagon. Get a legit 1st line C in here...A $7M-8M a year guy. Getting rid of those other 3 clears up $13.25MM...the bulk of the rest goes to another d-man.

Tanguay, Kostsytsin brothers, Higgins, Lats, Pacioretty, Lapierre and Plekanec are plenty to fill out 3 quality lines around 1 top line C. Sure, they need to re-up Higgins and Pleks but neither had huge years and the team also needs to clear out the salaries of Dandenault, Bouillon, Brisebois and Schneider from last years cap hit...at, what, $6MM it's enough to cover the additional contract money for all of Komisarek, Higgins and Pleks.

With Komi re-signed, and with Hamrlik, Markov already locked in they just need to go and get one more legit top 4 d-man. Gorges and O'Byrne are capable of filling out the top 6 d-men.

A top 4 d-man and a top line C...

Why blow it up when 7 of the top 9 forwards could be inexpensive good young talent just entering their prime?

Not to mention that both goalies are relatively inexpensive...

Only the defence would be carrying some real cap money but come 2011/12 Hamrlik and Markov are UFA which should be when we have more quality young d-men ready to jump up.

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Good post. But where are you going to get your 1st line centre? Do you think we could actually get the Sedin sisters out of Vancouver? These players are extremely tough to come across.

And I don't trust O'Byrne. I think he's a meathead. I'd much rather see Subban, Fisher or McDonagh make the jump.

Edited by zumpano21
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I don't think tanking on purpose is part of any game plan. You do the best you can every year and maybe you'll get lucky. The cup can go to any team, it's not written in stone depending on who has what talent. Look at Carolina, a team no one expected to get this far. Hawks, Wings and Pens all have a plethora of star players but Carolina ONLY has Staal. That's not much. They got this far because they play a strong team game, not because they ooze talent from every pour. I say keep developing the talent we have no (most of it has yet to reach it's peak anyways) and have them buy into a good system. We'll be fine.

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Like Zowpeb said, it just isn't the time to be considering a total rebuild. Just a year ago, we were one of the top teams in the league - with a worse team than we have right now.

If we manage to get our hands on a first line centre, we should be one of the best teams in the league again. Replace Koivu with Sundin and we're ready for next season. :)

@ForumGhost: I see what you're saying but Carolina also used a 3rd overall pick on Jack Johnson which lead to Tim Gleason, one of their best d-men. The also used a high pick (4th oa, I think) on Andrew Ladd and that turned into Tuomo Ruutu. They aren't stars, but the Canes have enough of those types of players that they now have more depth than Pittsburgh and Chicago. They also managed to trade Cole at full value, bringing in their #1 d-man, and then re-acquired him at his lowest value. They haven't built through the draft but they did rely on those high picks to stock their lineup. Besides, getting Eric Staal is enough. On a team with a lot of depth, why should they need more than one franchise player? (Also helps that they have the best money goaltender in the game.)

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I agree with the prevailing sentiment. We sucked for a decade. That's enough - especially when you consider that a high pick is no guarantee of success. (Wickenheiser, anyone?)

Also:

1. We finished 8th in the Conference with every possible thing going wrong. This team is better than that. So don't panic yet that the rebuild is a failure.

2. We finished 1st in the Conference in 2008, which at least suggests that you can enjoy great success without absolutely tanking for years.

3. JLP is right that signing your talent is just as important as drafting it. At the risk of repeating myself, I'll say that if we lose Komi after losing Streit, we'll have lost two top-4 defencemen - both of whom we drafted - in two years, with no apparent replacements. You find me a winning organization that does that!

4. There are other things we can do besides blowing it up. A new coach will help enormously. So would stronger mentoring to young players within the organization. It seems very clear that just hurling them into stardom in Montreal - the Guy Lafleur (!) view that you can't babysit these pros - is *not* a recipe for smooth development. Do things like that before you fire-bomb the organization.

5. I don't believe in UFAs as the miracle cure. But as long as we are competing against teams that *do* go out a pay big dough for UFAs, we are at a serious disadvantage. Chicago signed Brian Campbell, a tremendous player and a key element for them. Boston, Chara and Savard. Detroit, Hossa. Carolina - their UFA signings escape me, but they've never been afraid to make a move. This team needs a stronger *core* group (as everyone knows, Kovalev and Koivu are well below the standards of most teams' core forwards) and we will only acquire that through some sort of bold strike, whether it be a blockbuster trade or - the safer route - a UFA signing. Unfortunately, Montreal seems to be a losing locale as far as UFAs go. This is a huge competitive disadvantage. Think about it: our rebuild looks pretty different if we have Campbell or Hossa or Chara or Savard added to our existing crop of young players. So I think that, at some point, Gainey has to bite the bullet and just overpay for the right player. (Bouwmeester may well be that player IMHO, but it doesn't have to be him. The point is - identify your future core player and do *whatever it takes* to sign him).

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Lost in all the talk of draft choices is the team we are dealing with. Losing is unacceptable, the fans are NOT conditioned to it. You cannot pull an expnsion team scenario here; you cannot pull a Pittsburgh or Washington here. to do so will cost you your job, simple as.

Montreal Canadiens, think about that for a few moments...one must compete, at all costs...

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Lost in all the talk of draft choices is the team we are dealing with. Losing is unacceptable, the fans are NOT conditioned to it. You cannot pull an expnsion team scenario here; you cannot pull a Pittsburgh or Washington here. to do so will cost you your job, simple as.

Montreal Canadiens, think about that for a few moments...one must compete, at all costs...

Depends what you mean. No manager would be wise to try it in Montreal because they won't last in town long enough to see the draft picks pan out. But I think Montreal (like Toronto) is one of the safest places to try it because fans will continue to show up to the games even when they suck. People might be pissed off (they aren't in Toronto, but that's because they're less fanatical there) but I think they will still follow the team. In an expansion city, it's do or die. Would YOU stop following the team if they tanked? We say that we wouldn't "tolerate" it but I think the Habs will always be popular. (By the way, I've already said that I don't think it's the right move, I'm just sayin'.)

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I think almost all the pieces we need are already here. We have enough 'good' forwards to make up a generally offensive core. Aside from Kostitsyn. we may not have anyone who could score more than 30 anytime soon, but we have enough skill all around to be a team that scores by committee. Our defense is going to be emerging in the next couple years with guys like McDonagh, Weber, Subban, Fischer and maybe Emelin. If we resign Komo, all the better. In goal we obviously have two young goalies. Not much needs to be said about their upsides.

All we need is that one guy to put us over the top, like a Gaborik or Kovalchuk. Isn't Nash a free agent next summer as well? If we keep trying, I'm sure we'll eventually get our guy off the free agent market.

Edited by ForumGhost
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I agree with the prevailing sentiment. We sucked for a decade. That's enough - especially when you consider that a high pick is no guarantee of success. (Wickenheiser, anyone?)

Also:

1. We finished 8th in the Conference with every possible thing going wrong. This team is better than that. So don't panic yet that the rebuild is a failure.

2. We finished 1st in the Conference in 2008, which at least suggests that you can enjoy great success without absolutely tanking for years.

3. JLP is right that signing your talent is just as important as drafting it. At the risk of repeating myself, I'll say that if we lose Komi after losing Streit, we'll have lost two top-4 defencemen - both of whom we drafted - in two years, with no apparent replacements. You find me a winning organization that does that!

4. There are other things we can do besides blowing it up. A new coach will help enormously. So would stronger mentoring to young players within the organization. It seems very clear that just hurling them into stardom in Montreal - the Guy Lafleur (!) view that you can't babysit these pros - is *not* a recipe for smooth development. Do things like that before you fire-bomb the organization.

5. I don't believe in UFAs as the miracle cure. But as long as we are competing against teams that *do* go out a pay big dough for UFAs, we are at a serious disadvantage. Chicago signed Brian Campbell, a tremendous player and a key element for them. Boston, Chara and Savard. Detroit, Hossa. Carolina - their UFA signings escape me, but they've never been afraid to make a move. This team needs a stronger *core* group (as everyone knows, Kovalev and Koivu are well below the standards of most teams' core forwards) and we will only acquire that through some sort of bold strike, whether it be a blockbuster trade or - the safer route - a UFA signing. Unfortunately, Montreal seems to be a losing locale as far as UFAs go. This is a huge competitive disadvantage. Think about it: our rebuild looks pretty different if we have Campbell or Hossa or Chara or Savard added to our existing crop of young players. So I think that, at some point, Gainey has to bite the bullet and just overpay for the right player. (Bouwmeester may well be that player IMHO, but it doesn't have to be him. The point is - identify your future core player and do *whatever it takes* to sign him).

1. Habs were not really a #1 team last year and shouldn't have been a #8 team this year. Both years, they were really a middle of the pack team that exceeded expectations one year and folded in the face of unrealistic expectations and over the top celebrations the following year. They have a good crop of supporting role prospects, with no real can't miss high IMPACT prospects. The good prospects they do have lack the guts to drive to the net - part of which in my eyes has been a coaching issue. The coaching staff doesnt' seem to have any issue with cycling the puck back and forth without guys driving to the net and putting pressure on the opposing defence and making the goalie work for his stops. You can win in the regular season like this, but you got to drive to the friggin net and be willing to pay the price if you want to succeed in the playoffs.

2. The montreal canadians CANNOT tank intentially - sucking because you have the three stooges (Corey, Houle and Tremblay), is one thing, but we are not talking about the Lightning, the Panthers, the Islanders, Blue jackets, Coyotes or kings, or even the leafs, this is the Montreal Canadiens. They SHOULD be competing every year like the Red Wings and losing CANNOT be an option. Besides all of these teams sucked for a long time and still suck. Detroit has been good for a long time and has not had the benefit of high draft picks. The difference is how the team is managed. Ronald Corey drove the team into the ground and now the president of the team (Boivon), is cut from the same cloth as Corey, which doesn't bode well for the habs future.

3. Komi should have been signed when he got hurt - no question about it. Streit also stated in an interview at the end of last year, that he would have signed if the habs had offered him around $2M/4 year deal in Dec 07. But for some idiotic reason Gainey likes risking losing assets bcoz of an asinine policy of not negotiating during the year. Ryder should also have been traded last year, since Carbo wasn't playing him and didn't seem to have an intention of using him as a top 6 forward, or even on the PP (to use him in any other role is setting him up for failure). With the previous two years and this year's UFA's, we have lost Streit, Ryder and Souray for nothing and now could potentially lose Koivu, Kovolev, Komisarik, Tanguay, Lang, Schneider and Bouillon for nothing. While you are always going to lose guys to free agency in the modern NHL, there is no excuse to put yourself in a position where you don't resign Komisarik and Tanguay for sure and don't move some of your other UFA's. It is simple mis-management of assets to an extent that is beyond stupidity.

4. Who do we bring in as a new coach?? We already know it won't be the best or most qualified option, because the habs brass will cave in to media pressure and hire a french coach rather then the best option.

5. We could try to way overpay someone like Bouwmeester, but there are two issues with that approach. First of all, Bouwmeester will probably get a ridiculous offer sheet between $7.5M to $8.5M. Which means just to make up for the quebec tax differential, Montreal would have to offer between $8.5M to $9.5M just to be on par with an outside offer. So really, even by overpaying, a guy like Bouwemester, is really only going to get around $500k/yr more to go to Montreal. I doubt if a guy like Bouwmeester would want to comer here over an "easier" market to play in. Second, lets say we did manage to sign Bouwmester to a $9M/yr 10 year deal. What do we do in 2 years when Markov is a UFA???

Chicago way overpaid for Campbell, and I wouldn't even consider him among the top 2 defencmen in Chicago now. I'd take Seabrook and Keith over him any day. They have looked much better in the playoffs then Campbell - he seems to afraid to get hit and makes poor defensive decisions - did you see Scotty Bowman ripping him earlier in the playoffs?

If you look at the UFA crop over the next two years, the guy the habs may be able to sign bcoz of his injury history may scare off other teams is a guy like Gaborik. Rolling the dice that his issues weren't groin related and his hip surgery has solved his health issues, the habs could offer him something like $7M/year over 12 years, HEAVILY Front loaded with the last four years at around $1/M a year. That way if in the later third of the contract if his production falls, they can buy him out relatively cheaply. The risk of course is that he continues to miss 20 to 40 games/year with injuries. On a skill level, I think he is by far the most skilled UFA out there - kind of reminds me of a another #10 who has his jersey hanging in the rafters. Its a matter of how much of a risk do you want to take with considering his medical history. There is no way Hossa would ever want to come to Montreal - especially if Detroit fails to win the cup this year. If Nash goes anywhere next year bcoz columbus fails to lock him up, it will probably be home to the Leafs. Kovulchuk is an intriguing option next year if he doesn't resign with Atlanta, but again, will he want a more stable and sure choice where he has a chance to win??

Losing and picking first overall WILL not get rid of managment stupidity, otherwise a team like the Islanders would be contenders by now. Montreal could have drafted Getzlaf, Parise and others in the the draft positions they had, but didn't. You don't necessarily need to pick #1 overall to succeed. The Red Wings have been scooping up guys like Franzen and Datsyuk later in the draft for years (but then again, the don't tend to restrict their drafting to the US College ranks. Moreover, even if you do have consecutive #1 picks, for every Crosby, Ovechkin or Patrick Kane there have been Alexandre Daigle, Rick Depeitro and Patrick Stefan's picked. And even if you do pick the right star, you may still fail to build the right team around him.

The habs have been doing a better job of drafting and have a much better management team in place since the dark years of the unholy trinity (Corey, Houle, Tremblay). But they are still several notches below ken Holland or Lou Lamoriello (who also have made their share of mistakes, but have done a much better job of correcting them), let alone the Sam Pollack/Scotty Bowman level.

They have a GM who is too stubborn in his negotiating policies and doesn't learn from his mistakes (i.e. sticking with Price game after game down the stretch and in the playoffs, when it was clear he had very little to no confidence, or incredibly bad asset managment - both by losing guys to free agency as well as the waiver wire and seeming learning NOTHING. After losing Beauchiman on waivers, making the same stupid mistake with Hainsey was unforgivable). Their scouring director, apparently doesn't seem to realize that there are actually more players outside of the USA high school/college ranks that might be worth a risk.

The biggest issue in recent years has been coaching. Why, the continue to insist on being an affirmative action program bent on hiring and training and developing inexperienced french coaches to fail in Montreal so they can succeed elsewhere is beyond me. They need to get a guy who can motivate players, a guy who the players can respect, someone who has actually accomplished something in the NHL and has a winning track record. They need to hire the best, most experienced coach available - language issues be damned!!

Edited by hab29RETIRED
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I think almost all the pieces we need are already here. We have enough 'good' forwards to make up a generally offensive core. Aside from Kostitsyn. we may not have anyone who could score more than 30 anytime soon, but we have enough skill all around to be a team that scores by committee. Our defense is going to be emerging in the next couple years with guys like McDonagh, Weber, Subban, Fischer and maybe Emelin. If we resign Komo, all the better. In goal we obviously have two young goalies. Not much needs to be said about their upsides.

All we need is that one guy to put us over the top, like a Gaborik or Kovalchuk. Isn't Nash a free agent next summer as well? If we keep trying, I'm sure we'll eventually get our guy off the free agent market.

The only guy i see us having a shot of signing is Gaborik, and that's only becuase other teams may be scared to commit long term to him, becuase of his injury issues.

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Habs have some decent young talent, just need to surround them with some quality vets. An important offseason coming up and i am excited to see what BG does.

However, i do like the idea of getting Kovalchuk next summer.

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Habs have some decent young talent, just need to surround them with some quality vets. An important offseason coming up and i am excited to see what BG does.

However, i do like the idea of getting Kovalchuk next summer.

So do the other 29 teams. I can't see him picking the habs over at least 10 of them.

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