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Immediate bust for a later boom?


zumpano21

Who's willing to sacrifice?  

31 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you tolerate multiple losing seasons in order to produce a better Canadiens team in the future?

    • Yes
      9
    • No
      22


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In case you haven't been watching the last 15 years there is already plenty of losing going on.

Unless you mean like being the worst team in the league for 3-4 years. No thanks.

They have some good young players, it is up to BG to ice a better team this year, many players failed to progress forward and many have taken a step back.

He needs to solidify the coaching situation including assistants. It's to stop turning over coaches and start turning over players who don't produce.

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I like what Zowpeb said here...."Frankly, I'm starting to jump on the get rid of Kovalev, Koivu and Lang bandwagon. Get a legit 1st line C in here...A $7M-8M a year guy. Getting rid of those other 3 clears up $13.25MM...the bulk of the rest goes to another d-man".

I agree and think it's time to move at least two of these three and clear enough space to pay, even overpay, a legitimate first line centre that we've needed for a long time. Many people have wondered why Philly has gone all these years and not gone and picked up a top line goalie. We've been in a similiar situation regarding a big first line centre. So let's move all three or keep one but I agree it's time to make some bold moves.

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I like what Zowpeb said here...."Frankly, I'm starting to jump on the get rid of Kovalev, Koivu and Lang bandwagon. Get a legit 1st line C in here...A $7M-8M a year guy. Getting rid of those other 3 clears up $13.25MM...the bulk of the rest goes to another d-man".

I agree and think it's time to move at least two of these three and clear enough space to pay, even overpay, a legitimate first line centre that we've needed for a long time. Many people have wondered why Philly has gone all these years and not gone and picked up a top line goalie. We've been in a similiar situation regarding a big first line centre. So let's move all three or keep one but I agree it's time to make some bold moves.

But the trouble is, how do you acquire that big C? Not re-signing Koivu and Kovalev frees up dough, but there are no elite C available as UFAs this summer, so what's the point? You'll just be leaving yourself with Plekanec as #1C and without the one player on your roster that other teams worry about (Kovalev). Better to try to sign those guys to short-term, low-rent deals that leave you with flexibility going forward.

The loss of Kovalev in particular strikes me as potentially damaging. Right now he draws the other teams' top checkers and dominates the opposition game plan. While I suppose this role would shift to Tanguay, I don't think it helps to leave guys like Kostitsyn, Pacioretty, Higgins, etc., less protected, probably to their deteriment.

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Everyone keeps talking about getting the big superstar centre, but may I ask who everyone is referring to? And of course, Vinny is HIGHLY unlikely and I'm not sure anyone has patience for Sundin again. So, who is this fabled centre everyone's thinking of?

Edited by ForumGhost
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Everyone keeps talking about getting the big superstar centre, but may I ask who everyone is referring to? And of course, Vinny is HIGHLY unlikely and I'm not sure anyone has patience for Sundin again. So, who is this fabled centre everyone's thinking of?

A younger, bigger Koivu, oh wait, there is already one of those called Mikko.

(This is just meant as a joke, Im not saying Mikko Koivu should be our new no1 centre)

Edited by Dalhabs
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But the trouble is, how do you acquire that big C? Not re-signing Koivu and Kovalev frees up dough, but there are no elite C available as UFAs this summer, so what's the point? You'll just be leaving yourself with Plekanec as #1C and without the one player on your roster that other teams worry about (Kovalev). Better to try to sign those guys to short-term, low-rent deals that leave you with flexibility going forward.

The loss of Kovalev in particular strikes me as potentially damaging. Right now he draws the other teams' top checkers and dominates the opposition game plan. While I suppose this role would shift to Tanguay, I don't think it helps to leave guys like Kostitsyn, Pacioretty, Higgins, etc., less protected, probably to their deteriment.

I would definitely try to keep all of Tanguay, Lang and Kovalev. Koivu's a maybe because we don't have anyone in the system that can replace him.

These are our options:

We could sign Sundin or Sedin, we could take on a good player with a big contract (Lecavalier, Briere), we could go for a big trade (Jokinen, Marleau), or we could spend our money on a winger (Havlat, Cammalleri) and tough it out at C for another season.

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Everyone pisses and moans about Koivu being small and soft and you would take Briere?

+1

Briere has also been much more injury prone in recent years as well and has a ridicilous contract to boot. We were lucky he choose philly over the habs two years back. If we do have to take on somebody else's dumb contract, I'd rather take Lecavlier over Briere.

Ideally, I'd rather have the habs go after another centre that is a little younger. I wonder what it would take to swap picks with the Islanders to try and get Tavares???

Edited by hab29RETIRED
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Everyone pisses and moans about Koivu being small and soft and you would take Briere?

Not everybody whines about Koivu being small and soft. People complain about him being overpaid, overused or overrated. If we're willing to take on the contract, we'd have a much better 1st line C in Briere.

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I would definitely try to keep all of Tanguay, Lang and Kovalev. Koivu's a maybe because we don't have anyone in the system that can replace him.

These are our options:

We could sign Sundin or Sedin, we could take on a good player with a big contract (Lecavalier, Briere), we could go for a big trade (Jokinen, Marleau), or we could spend our money on a winger (Havlat, Cammalleri) and tough it out at C for another season.

So. Keep Tangs, Lang and Kovy. Tangs I can see. Lang will be coming off one of the worst injuries an athlete can get and he's doing it in the twilight of his career - twilight being a generous term. Kovy will try hard for 12 games a year and might show up in the playoffs.

As for your options, we "could" sign Sundin or Sedin. Sure. If THEY want to come here. Everyone forgets that. We "could" trade for Lecav, Briere, Jokinen, Marleau, but that requires trade partners willing to make the deal and us able to fill their needs. We "could" spend the money on a winger and tough it out.

So, in essence, you're saying we should go with Lang and Plex as our #1, 2 punch down the middle. Yes, yes, THAT will surely help us! What a colossal improvement!

Can Montreal really afford to let Koivu go if they don't have someone? He's healthier than Lang and better than Plex.

Not everybody whines about Koivu being small and soft. People complain about him being overpaid, overused or overrated. If we're willing to take on the contract, we'd have a much better 1st line C in Briere.

Really? Briere was BRILLIANT this year. :rolleyes:

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So. Keep Tangs, Lang and Kovy. Tangs I can see. Lang will be coming off one of the worst injuries an athlete can get and he's doing it in the twilight of his career - twilight being a generous term. Kovy will try hard for 12 games a year and might show up in the playoffs.

You aren't speaking literally though. You're using the usual Colin I-Can't-Control-My-Emotions-So-I'll-Exaggerate-Everything-And-Make-It-Funny-If-Possible technique. You don't like Kovalev, that's fine. That doesn't mean when you say he'll play 12 good games a year, it's anything close to the truth. He's the best (/second best) forward on the team and has proven his worth to us in 3 out of his 4 seasons here. He doesn't try as hard as Koivu but he's still a factor in at least as many games as Koivu because of the talent difference. Not that it's a competition between the two. If it did come to a choice between the two, then I'd have to go with Kovalev. Partly because of the difference in talent and partly because I think the passing of the Koivu Era could have a positive effect on the team (not if it comes at the cost of having Ben Maxwell on the top 2 lines obviously).

As for your options, we "could" sign Sundin or Sedin. Sure. If THEY want to come here. Everyone forgets that.

We "could" trade for Lecav, Briere, Jokinen, Marleau, but that requires trade partners willing to make the deal and us able to fill their needs.

I named the most realistic people possible. I didn't forget that someone else has to agree. Saying so does make your post sound better though. I didn't say to get Jokinen *BOOM* it's done, hallelujah. But if we could get one of them, wouldn't they be better options than Koivu? So they're places to look in to.

We "could" spend the money on a winger and tough it out.

So, in essence, you're saying we should go with Lang and Plex as our #1, 2 punch down the middle. Yes, yes, THAT will surely help us! What a colossal improvement!

Can Montreal really afford to let Koivu go if they don't have someone? He's healthier than Lang and better than Plex.

I said this was an option if all else failed. If it's a choice between Koivu or Lang (Lang costing half as much), I'd take Lang. It saves money (maybe to be used on re-signing Komisarek?) and, like I said earlier, I think the team could do with a change of atmosphere in the locker room. Is there any team out there that collapses so often and so horribly as ours does? Has their habit also spanned over so many seasons and head coaches? The team's problems are 90% mental/dressing room problems, whatever they are.

By the way, re-reading this line of yours, I think you misunderstood my post here in your effort to hate anyone that mentions the possibility of letting Koivu walk. If you read closely, I wrote that going with Lang and Plekanec down the middle would be an option if we use the money to bring in a top winger (or d-man). We'd be weaker at C, stronger at the wing. It's an option.

Really? Briere was BRILLIANT this year. :rolleyes:

Again, because Briere had a weak year, he's a realistic option. Would you have preferred it had I said Crosby? It would just be a fantasy. There's no point in discussing names if it won't be the most realistic ones.

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...You're using the usual Colin I-Can't-Control-My-Emotions-So-I'll-Exaggerate-Everything-And-Make-It-Funny-If-Possible technique. You don't like Kovalev, that's fine. That doesn't mean when you say he'll play 12 good games a year, it's anything close to the truth. He's the best (/second best) forward on the team and has proven his worth to us in 3 out of his 4 seasons here.

...I named the most realistic people possible. I didn't forget that someone else has to agree. Saying so does make your post sound better though. I didn't say to get Jokinen *BOOM* it's done, hallelujah. But if we could get one of them, wouldn't they be better options than Koivu? So they're places to look in to.

Cute. I like the name. I'm glad you know how I feel when I post. Please keep reminding me. Now, just for the record, I *like* Kovalev. But, as a general manager, he would make me pull my hair out for 70 games a season. You can call that an exaggeration all you want, but go back and watch the tapes. I'm not disputing superior talent, nor do I think it's a competition. If it came to a choice between the two, I'd take Koivu, because we have no centres.

If you think those names you listed are the most *realistic* possible, you've been playing EHM too much.

like I said earlier, I think the team could do with a change of atmosphere in the locker room. Is there any team out there that collapses so often and so horribly as ours does? Has their habit also spanned over so many seasons and head coaches? The team's problems are 90% mental/dressing room problems, whatever they are.

You know, you could make a lot of money since you have the locker room bugged. Why are you posting on these boards when you could be Ek2 with dressing room connections?!?

By the way, re-reading this line of yours, I think you misunderstood my post here in your effort to hate anyone that mentions the possibility of letting Koivu walk.

What a ridiculous comment.

I posted because of what I felt was a lack of addressing the centre issue. By letting Koivu walk, we're a huge margin weaker since we cannot - as yet - guarantee Lang's health, nor the interest in anyone being traded for or signed here. I find the "drop Koivu now" comments irritating because there seems to be only EHM or NHL09 answers to the centre issue. Until we have our hands on a real, live centre, dropping Koivu is just silliness.

Now, if you asked me about how I felt emotionally about Koivu leaving? No, I don't want him to go. Do I think it's responsible managing to keep him irregardless of the issues? No. If an opportunity arose which dictated a need to move Koivu, then for the betterment of the franchise, I'd do it. I'm a big fan of loyalty - particularly when the player in question has shown tremendous levels to the franchise ("Hi, I'll resign for my last contract because I don't feel I deserve any raises because I proved nothing.") and if there was a way to keep him that he'd agree to, I'd do it; however I'm not stupid. If I felt moving him would create a better environment (which I would know, being the GM *hint hint*) then I'd talk to him and trade him where he wanted to go. (Or let him walk if that was his desire.)

Again, because Briere had a weak year, he's a realistic option. Would you have preferred it had I said Crosby? It would just be a fantasy. There's no point in discussing names if it won't be the most realistic ones.

I think any mention of Briere is laughable from people on these boards - even if Gainey tried for him at one point. Why? Because for an age indeterminant, everyone has bitched and whined about a BIG IMPOSING DOMINANT centre. Not a pint-sized smurf.

Of all the names you mentioned, I think Marleau is the most interesting. One of he and Thornton will probably be going. If you could land one of them, I think either and Koivu would be an interesting one-two punch. (Or Lang, if that's your flavour.)

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I'd love to see Marleau at #1, Koivu, Lapierre, maybe Lang to round it out and push Koivu to #3, or, if not healthy, Metropolit between his wingers (liked his play a lot after he met Higgins), or even give a shot to a couple of young bucks (Chips, Maxwell, whoever). In whatever case, I can't see either Koivu or Lang lasting more than a year or two.

We can't do another year of Koivu #1 and Plex "2. So long Plex, thanks for all the fish!

BTH, relax, sarcasm makes the forum go 'round...

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I may totally wrong and lazy because i didn't look it up but didn't Pleks have more points then Koivu? I know he had more goals?

So why is everyone saying Koivu is better then Pleks? If you like him better then Pleks that's fine but i think (as sad as it is because i don't think much of Pleks' game either) Pleks brings more to the table even playing like a school girl then Koivu brings to the table. Plus Koivu is 1 more year older.

No doubt BG has his work cut out for him starting with a top end coaching staff, taking the garbage out and figuring out which young players are actually players.

It should be an interesting off season

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I may totally wrong and lazy because i didn't look it up but didn't Pleks have more points then Koivu? I know he had more goals?

Koivu had 11 more points in 15 less games. Koivu showed up for the playoffs with 3 points, whereas Plex didn't show up, managing a meagure -5.

I'm still hearing that one of Thornton or Marleau could be available. I'd prefer Thornton. He's nearing the age when he'll "get it" regarding the playoffs.

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I may totally wrong and lazy because i didn't look it up but didn't Pleks have more points then Koivu? I know he had more goals?

So why is everyone saying Koivu is better then Pleks? If you like him better then Pleks that's fine but i think (as sad as it is because i don't think much of Pleks' game either) Pleks brings more to the table even playing like a school girl then Koivu brings to the table. Plus Koivu is 1 more year older.

No doubt BG has his work cut out for him starting with a top end coaching staff, taking the garbage out and figuring out which young players are actually players.

It should be an interesting off season

Koivu's stats:

2007-08 77 GP 16 G 40 A 56 PTS

2008-09 65 GP 16 G 34 A 50 PTS

Plekanec's stats:

2007-08 81GP 29 G 40 A 69 PTS

2008-09 80 GP 20 G 19 A 39 PTS

Sorry, but there's no way the Pleks of last season compares to Saku Koivu last season. The former was a lightweight perimeter player who brought next to nothing to the table except for that hot spell early in 2009 and wasn't even very effective defensively. Koivu played hard in traffic and at least contributed *something* on most nights, although I agree that he is in decline and I'd be surprised if he cracks 55 points next season. The difference between the two is very simple. Only one has cojones.

The 07-08 numbers, coupled with the second half of 2006-07 in which he was almost a PPG player, show that Plekanec is capable of being a legitimate top-6 NHL forward. But he's going to be 27 in October. If he doesn't figure it out soon, he may well end up out of the NHL, the latest in a line of talented players (Bulis, Perezhogin, Kovalenko, Kjell Dhalin :lol: ) who just could not seem to cope with the rigours of the NHL game.

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Looking at those numbers the habs need 2 new top 2 centers quickly.

89 points for your top 2 centers, that is really bad.

No kidding! It would be interesting to compare - does ANY other NHL team have such horrible production from its top two centremen? Anybody know?

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Avs, Jackets, Islanders, Coyotes. But it's not as bad as people seem to assume. I didn't do all the math, but if I had to estimate roughly, the total from the top two scoring centers didn't seem to be more than 20 points or so away from our total. (with the exceptions being teams stacked down the middle, like Philly or Pitts.)

Edited by ForumGhost
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Watching the 4 teams left in the playoffs, I think the habs are very far from being contenders. We need at least 2 Point Per Game players and at least 5 or 6 20+ goal scorers. Comparing the Red Wings line up to habs is almost humiliating. 8 players with 50+ pts and 11 with 40+ pts. But the stat that is the most revealing and relevant, in my opinion, is giveaways. Detroit's top 4 Dmen combined for 168 giveaways during the season. Carolina's top 4 Dmen combined for 118 giveaways. Chicago's top 4 Dmen for 125 giveaways. Pittsburgs top 4 Dmen 144 giveaways.

Markov, Komisarek, Hamrlik and Gorges: 326 giveaways!

in 2007-08: 261 giveaways, slightly better but still far from good.

That's puck possesion, I don't see how they can turn that around next season...

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Looking at those numbers the habs need 2 new top 2 centers quickly.

89 points for your top 2 centers, that is really bad.

I think u should replace Plekanec with Lang for that one.

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