A thought for Carbo

[KoZed]

I remember when Carbo was fired, I (as well as JoeLass, brobin and a few others) were mad at seeing the coach being sacrificed because the same old vets (Koivu, Kovalev) had choked again.

More people wouldnt have any of it. For many (Colin, nhfarber, Cajanun I can recall) the players (Koivu, Kovalev) weren't at fault and it was all on Carbo's head.

Not long after being fired, Carbo had this small, enigmatic quip "Now it's up to Bob and the organization to deal with rotten apples". He wouldnt name anyone because the season was still on going. Though he said "One day the truth will come out".

To me, yesterday was a form of closure of that entire episode. When Gainey goes on to say "We had a chance to change the face of the team, starting with Saku Koivu", it's a thinly veiled concession to what Carbo had hinted months before.

The deduction is relatively easy to make now: Carbo couldnt get anything out of a team that had Koivu for captain and Kovalev and Higgins as core vets; as Julien and Therrien found out before him. Gainey decided to take matters in his own hands and had to fire Carbo. He witnessed exactly what Carbo had to deal with: a team that had no leadership, no character and that had grown stubbornedly unresponsive to authority.

You know they say it's easier to fire a coach than 23 players. Well yesterday, it was as if Bob had fired 11 players, "starting with Saku Koivu".

I hope Carbo, wherever he is, feels that he's been somehow vindicated for his firing now that all those long-time chokers have been virtually kicked off the team.

I know I do.

[brobin]

Amen.

There was definitely something rotten in that room and Gainey decided to gut the core leaders. While people lament the loss of some of these guys, I suspect Gainey knows way more about the situation then us. His actions certainly indicate he wanted no part of Koivu. I am convinced that Koivu could not step back and play a 2nd or 3rd line centre role. He helped get Ribs fired. He certainly seemed to kill Kovy's enthusiasm when he came back from injury. While I always liked Koivu in his younger days, it was time to turn the page on the leadership of this team.

[KoZed]

Amen.

There was definitely something rotten in that room and Gainey decided to gut the core leaders. While people lament the loss of some of these guys, I suspect Gainey knows way more about the situation then us. His actions certainly indicate he wanted no part of Koivu. I am convinced that Koivu could not step back and play a 2nd or 3rd line centre role. He helped get Ribs fired. He certainly seemed to kill Kovy's enthusiasm when he came back from injury. While I always liked Koivu in his younger days, it was time to turn the page on the leadership of this team.

Funny, but it didnt really hit me until we signed the last guy (Gionta) that Gainey really was going for the sweep.

I wanted the whole damn lot of those chokers gone and Gainey granted my wish. If it took firing Carbo and seeing for himself how rotten the so-called leaders of the team were, then all our frustration and anger wasnt all for naught.

I feel as excited as back when we got Muller, Damphousse and Bellows. Except it all happened on the same day!

[habs rule]

I remember when Carbo was fired, I (as well as JoeLass, brobin and a few others) were mad at seeing the coach being sacrificed because the same old vets (Koivu, Kovalev) had choked again.

More people wouldnt have any of it. For some that I recall (Colin, nhfarber, Cajanun) the players (Koivu, Kovalev) weren't at fault and it was all on Carbo's head.

Not long after being fired, Carbo had this small, enigmatic quip "Now it's up to Bob and the organization to deal with rotten apples". He wouldnt name anyone because the season was still on going. Though he said "One day the truth will come out".

To me, yesterday was a form of closure of that entire episode. When Gainey goes on to say "We had a chance to change the face of the team, starting with Saku Koivu", it's a thinly veiled concession to what Carbo had hinted months before.

The deduction is relatively easy to make now: Carbo couldnt get anything out of a team that had Koivu for captain and Kovalev and Higgins as core vets; as Julien and Therrien found out before him. Gainey decided to take matters in his own hands and had to fire Carbo. He witnessed exactly what Carbo had to deal with: a team that had no leadership, no character and that had grown stubbornedly unresponsive to authority.

You know they say it's easier to fire a coach than 23 players. Well yesterday, it was as if Bob had fired 11 players, "starting with Saku Koivu".

I hope Carbo, wherever he is, feels that he's been somehow vindicated for his firing now that all those long-time chokers have been virtually kicked off the team.

I know I do.

we agreed then we agree now. I defended koivu over the years but we all knew he had to go. He knew it when he said if I am not signed by july 1st I will be gone. I have always said that coaching was not the problem, I think that Bob saw that and acted accordingly. This team and the leaders let him down badly last year. He took it to heart. He made changes. I may not have realized that Saku was a problem. I guess Bob figured it out and that is what we pay him for. Saku may have been partially responsible for Bob's friend of 30 years being fired, but he only won a battle not a war. Goodbye Saku and may you never have luck against Montreal.

[KoZed]

we agreed then we agree now. I defended koivu over the years but we all knew he had to go. He knew it when he said if I am not signed by july 1st I will be gone. I have always said that coaching was not the problem, I think that Bob saw that and acted accordingly. This team and the leaders let him down badly last year. He took it to heart. He made changes. I may not have realized that Saku was a problem. I guess Bob figured it out and that is what we pay him for. Saku may have been partially responsible for Bob's friend of 30 years being fired, but he only won a battle not a war. Goodbye Saku and may you never have luck against Montreal.

It's one thing I'm starting to like about the new group. No bloated egos (except maybe Price who could use a good dose of humility). Gonna be much easier this time for Martin to keep everyone on the level. Dont think you'll see Gomez go directly to the owner or Gionta go directly to Gainey. Thing will be settled in the room or in the coache's office.

Muller must feel weird now though. All the coaches and vets are gone and he's the only one left.

[Seb]

I think you're right Koz. Unless there's some behind the scenes stuff happening, it's pretty obvious that when Bob took over from Carbo, he really got a good feel for the dynamics of the team: what's working, who's working, who affects who else, etc.

I think he didn't like the attitude of some players toward others and saw it first hand (plus obviously talking to Carbo) and this off-season (with his own job on the line) he made some bold moves. I commend him for it, I'm extremely pumped for the upcoming season.

I've said it since he got hired, and it still holds true: In Bob We Trust.

My faith has not waivered.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

All I can say is that this is the single most dramatic statement I can recall seeing a GM make - certainly a Habs' GM. (Can anyone think of other comparable examples?) Assuming he wasn't pressured by owenership, for him to radically overturn the entire coaching staff AND player core of a team really speaks to both his frustration with the previous group and his determination to completely refashion it. This is a different Bob Gainey - a Gainey who is through with rebuilding and wants results, and accepts nothing less. Whether he will get the results he wants is another question. But it's an astonishing thing to witness.

[Wamsley01]

It's one thing I'm starting to like about the new group. No bloated egos (except maybe Price who could use a good dose of humility). Gonna be much easier this time for Martin to keep everyone on the level. Dont think you'll see Gomez go directly to the owner or Gionta go directly to Gainey. Thing will be settled in the room or in the coache's office.

Muller must feel weird now though. All the coaches and vets are gone and he's the only one left.

No players that have to go for a walk with the GM to be motivated, no stupid stories in the Russian papers,

no sending healthy players home for a week.

The whole process was shocking, but I would be a hypocrite to complain about what I asked for.

I wanted the core jettisoned and I wanted a team that would conform to a system and players who valued team above themselves.

I still have major concerns about CAP and paying elite money to non elite players, but I will have to deal with it because

there is nothing I can do now.

[Seb]

All I can say is that this is the single most dramatic statement I can recall seeing a GM make - certainly a Habs' GM. (Can anyone think of other comparable examples?) Assuming he wasn't pressured by owenership, for him to radically overturn the entire coaching staff AND player core of a team really speaks to both his frustration with the previous group and his determination to completely refashion it. This is a different Bob Gainey - a Gainey who is through with rebuilding and wants results, and accepts nothing less. Whether he will get the results he wants is another question. But it's an astonishing thing to witness.

Indeed.

It seems to me that Gainey has almost flipped his "aggressive" switch to the ON position. I wouldn't be surprised to see more bold moves in the future. He's tried the conservative approach, maybe now he's going for a more cut-throat "deliver, or you're out" type of approach.

Either way, everyone knew there would be big changes to the team, but Gainey delivered in a bigger way than anticipated.

[KoZed]

All I can say is that this is the single most dramatic statement I can recall seeing a GM make - certainly a Habs' GM. (Can anyone think of other comparable examples?) Assuming he wasn't pressured by owenership, for him to radically overturn the entire coaching staff AND player core of a team really speaks to both his frustration with the previous group and his determination to completely refashion it. This is a different Bob Gainey - a Gainey who is through with rebuilding and wants results, and accepts nothing less. Whether he will get the results he wants is another question. But it's an astonishing thing to witness.

I'm surprised in one way, but not in the other.

When Bob canned Carbo, I was extremely pissed because I knew that after witnessing the same collapse we saw under Julien and Therrien, the root cause wasnt behind the bench; or at least the problem ran deeper. And it really looked like Bob took Kovalev & Koivu's side after he canned Carbo, which only angered me the most.

BUT, I also said that IF it was true that it came from above (the story is: Koivu is BFF with Gillette's sons, and Gillette treats Koivu as his own son since the cancer episode. Koivu complained about Carbo to the Gillette family, Gillette, seeing the team faltered, pressured Boivin to pressure Gainey to fire Carbo); if that was true, then I couldnt see Gainey accepting to be told what to do from higher-ups, especially not to be told to can his friend a week or so after saying it was the best move he ever did.

I think right then and there, Bob somehow just gave the vets enough rope to hang themselves. If he had changed the coach with another coach, then it'd be as if the new coach owed his job to the players sucking and getting rid of the previous coach. But going behind the bench himself, it placed the burden on the player. "Because of you I had to fire my friend. Now prove to me I didnt do it for nothing". Being forced to do something he didnt wanted to do (fire Carbo), he could however do something a coach couldnt do: get even. The players betrayed his trust by choking and he got payback. I think Bob had much more pent up bitterness than he let it show. So when the time came, the hammer fell with no pity.

I am sure though that none of this would have been possible without a new owner who had no ties to any of the UFAs. Bob was left alone to do what he wanted.

And he fired all the players who had quit on him and Carbo.

Poetic Justice

[KoZed]

No players that have to go for a walk with the GM to be motivated, no stupid stories in the Russian papers,

no sending healthy players home for a week.

He still offered a contract to Kovy. There was something between them that I'd never understand.

In the end, Kovy finally wasted all of Bob's patience by not taking his offer sooner.

[The Saint]

He still offered a contract to Kovy. There was something between them that I'd never understand.

In the end, Kovy finally wasted all of Bob's patience by not taking his offer sooner.

And I think that is perhaps the most poetically just happening of all. Kovy taking too long, skating east-west, dangling, as it were and Bob getting fed up and signing someone else.

Uber burn on Kovy.

[alexstream]

LOL, nice thought Koz [reply to first post].

Amen.

There was definitely something rotten in that room and Gainey decided to gut the core leaders. While people lament the loss of some of these guys, I suspect Gainey knows way more about the situation then us. His actions certainly indicate he wanted no part of Koivu. I am convinced that Koivu could not step back and play a 2nd or 3rd line centre role. He helped get Ribs fired. He certainly seemed to kill Kovy's enthusiasm when he came back from injury. While I always liked Koivu in his younger days, it was time to turn the page on the leadership of this team.

rumours, speculations, etc, we'll never know... and that's the sad part of it : we'll never know the truth... but I really think you are right. there is no basis to that. only "feelings" and interpretations, perceptions.

Funny, but it didnt really hit me until we signed the last guy (Gionta) that Gainey really was going for the sweep.

I wanted the whole damn lot of those chokers gone and Gainey granted my wish. If it took firing Carbo and seeing for himself how rotten the so-called leaders of the team were, then all our frustration and anger wasnt all for naught.

I feel as excited as back when we got Muller, Damphousse and Bellows. Except it all happened on the same day!

Isssh you put the step really high my friend.

If they can accomplish 3/4 of what those 3 did for us, I'll be pretty happy and certainly have a permanent boner.

(95 pts seasons, 40+ goals)

It's one thing I'm starting to like about the new group. No bloated egos (except maybe Price who could use a good dose of humility). Gonna be much easier this time for Martin to keep everyone on the level. Dont think you'll see Gomez go directly to the owner or Gionta go directly to Gainey. Thing will be settled in the room or in the coache's office.

Muller must feel weird now though. All the coaches and vets are gone and he's the only one left.

Oh, here's our CAPTAIN!

I think you're right Koz. Unless there's some behind the scenes stuff happening, it's pretty obvious that when Bob took over from Carbo, he really got a good feel for the dynamics of the team: what's working, who's working, who affects who else, etc.

I think he didn't like the attitude of some players toward others and saw it first hand (plus obviously talking to Carbo) and this off-season (with his own job on the line) he made some bold moves. I commend him for it, I'm extremely pumped for the upcoming season.

I've said it since he got hired, and it still holds true: In Bob We Trust.

My faith has not waivered.

All I can say is that this is the single most dramatic statement I can recall seeing a GM make - certainly a Habs' GM. (Can anyone think of other comparable examples?) Assuming he wasn't pressured by owenership, for him to radically overturn the entire coaching staff AND player core of a team really speaks to both his frustration with the previous group and his determination to completely refashion it. This is a different Bob Gainey - a Gainey who is through with rebuilding and wants results, and accepts nothing less. Whether he will get the results he wants is another question. But it's an astonishing thing to witness.

AND it HAD TO start with a trade for a Center BEFORE july 1st.

otherwise, do you imagine him calling UFAs :

Hey Camm, well hmmm, do you want to play for our "non-team"... yeah, you'd be LW on an inexistent line. I'm planning to get a center at "some point in the future". Yeah, I know, there is no one left, you'd be the only guy. All the pressure is on you. Fun eh?

[alexstream]

lol, who ever merged my post ed it up. bravo mod. bravo.

FIXED. next time you merge something, please make sure it doesn't everything up. Thanks. That was really a bad move. I'm not pissed though. Just questionning your judgment.

Edited July 3, 2009 by alexstream

[sakiqc]

I tend to think now that if Komi was on the same page as Gainey and the organisation, he would have remained and become captain. Even more with the Habs making him a comparable offer to the others, he didn't want in. Starting to smell to me like a rotten apple. Unless it's rotten deeper than we think

[KoZed]

I tend to think now that if Komi was on the same page as Gainey and the organisation, he would have remained and become captain. Even more with the Habs making him a comparable offer to the others, he didn't want in. Starting to smell to me like a rotten apple. Unless it's rotten deeper than we think

I think it was more rotten than we think.

Dixit Carbo when he was fired: "Now Gainey and the top brass will see for themselves who they (rotten apples) are."

Dixit Gainey July 1st: "We had a chance to change the face of the team, starting with Saku Koivu."

Dixit Boivin yesterday: "Now the team will be more united, and the environment will be more stable & motivating"

All seems to point to there having been some bad mojo deep in the roster and that it needed to be cleaned up once and for all.

[Dalhabs]

Lets just hope that Markov wasnt the master of rotten apples all the time

I think Fireing the coach is the easiest way to get a boost on the team and I think he did the right thing when fireing Carbo, if he wouldnt have done that we wouldve missed the playoffs.

[alexstream]

Lets just hope that Markov wasnt the master of rotten apples all the time

I think Fireing the coach is the easiest way to get a boost on the team and I think he did the right thing when fireing Carbo, if he wouldnt have done that we wouldve missed the playoffs.

As I said, I lovved Carbo, but ... Martin is ten times the coach Carbo was.

[lazy26]

Lets just hope that Markov wasnt the master of rotten apples all the time

I think Fireing the coach is the easiest way to get a boost on the team and I think he did the right thing when fireing Carbo, if he wouldnt have done that we wouldve missed the playoffs.

As I said, I lovved Carbo, but ... Martin is ten times the coach Carbo was.

+1

I still think Carbo might be able to become a great coach. But he's got ways to go.

[Habsfan]

I think he did the right thing when fireing Carbo, if he wouldnt have done that we wouldve missed the playoffs.

Would it have mattered that much? We were swept in 4 games against the arch-rival Bruins. the guys couldn't even put aside their differences to at least try and win one game against Boston!

But I agree, the atmosphere in the dressing room must have been truly horrible!

[MK1]

Lets just hope that Markov wasnt the master of rotten apples all the time

I think Fireing the coach is the easiest way to get a boost on the team and I think he did the right thing when fireing Carbo, if he wouldnt have done that we wouldve missed the playoffs.

Are you serious or is that a joke?!? Making the playoffs was a complete joke and a direct result of every other team ahead of them taking a dump in the bed at the exact same time. They lost EIGHT STRAIGHT GAMES including the playoffs to finish off the season my friend, missing the playoffs would've been a blessing to that team. Do yourself a favor and forget 2008-2009 ever happened.

[FinHab]

Oh man KoZus, so stupid, so stupid. How can you know these things, who is cancer to the Habs or who isn't? Koivu served us well, ok, I think so too that it was his time to go, BUT plz, have some respect to our ex-captain! Man, he is true leader and puts his team ahead of him always. I have met him couple of times and I really respect him as a player and a person too! Come on what the hell is wrong with you Habs fans?

It was Kovy who was "suspended" in middle of a season.....if you can remember.... anyhow, thanks to him as well.

Thanks for the years Saku! Respect!

Greetings from sunny Finland!

-F-

:hlogo:

[Wamsley01]

Lets just hope that Markov wasnt the master of rotten apples all the time

I think Fireing the coach is the easiest way to get a boost on the team and I think he did the right thing when fireing Carbo, if he wouldnt have done that we wouldve missed the playoffs.

Are you serious or is that a joke?!? Making the playoffs was a complete joke and a direct result of every other team ahead of them taking a dump in the bed at the exact same time. They lost EIGHT STRAIGHT GAMES including the playoffs to finish off the season my friend, missing the playoffs would've been a blessing to that team. Do yourself a favor and forget 2008-2009 ever happened.

How would it have been a benefit? Half of that team is now gone. Who would have gained anything

from missing the playoffs? What lessons would it have taught the 10 guys who are playing somewhere else?

This bloodletting was going to happen outside of a Stanley Cup run. Carbo foretold it in his final press conference,

just nobody took him seriously.

[Wamsley01]

Oh man KoZus, so stupid, so stupid. How can you know these things, who is cancer to the Habs or who isn't? Koivu served us well, ok, I think so too that it was his time to go, BUT plz, have some respect to our ex-captain! Man, he is true leader and puts his team ahead of him always. I have met him couple of times and I really respect him as a player and a person too! Come on what the hell is wrong with you Habs fans?

It was Kovy who was "suspended" in middle of a season.....if you can remember.... anyhow, thanks to him as well.

Thanks for the years Saku! Respect!

Greetings from sunny Finland!

-F-

:hlogo:

Where is the proof of this? Just because you try hard does not mean you are unselfish.

This team was very selfish and that is why 10 of them are gone.

[FinHab]

Try to look back just once, since 1995 Koivu worked hard every year for this team! And what he gets, stupid ungreatful fans whining about that he is unselfish and was he is THE reason why Habs haven't won cup since -93! Come on!!!!!!!! Biggest reason Habs haven't won anything for years is that nobody, who is a big name, wants to play in Montreal, why? 'Cause fans and press! Look at Vinny, why don't he come to his home town and rescue Habs and make Habs new Dynasty of NHL, he do not want to, easier to play in Tampa....... no stupid fans and press....no fans at all.... All I'm asking for you guys have some respect, Saku Koivu REALLY deserves it....

(sry for my english, I speak it better than write it)

-F-