Time for Gainey to go

[jackp]

While I realize it's still very early in the year, I think it's time for Gainey to go. The litany of mistakes has snowballed to the point where we look like we're gonna have a very bad team this year. Let's examine some facts:

1. The Great Gamble. So far, it doesn't look like it's working. We easily could be 0-5 so far this year. I know many of you didn't like Kovalev, but I sure would like to have him now. Also, I thought our defense would be better this year. It's not. It's worse. Could be I'm being unfair. Could be it's too early to judge. But, boy, god help us if this team decides to quit. Things will get even worse.

2. The Carey Price saga. I don't mind that Gainey picked him as our number 5 pick. First round picks are never guaranteed. I DO mind that he stubbornly insists on proving that his pick was a good one by costing us an embarassing playoff loss, and game after game after game. Last night, the Oilers had 3 goals on 10 shots. Anyone who has ever played at any level, knows what it does to a team when your goalie is simply not there. The team starts to play badly so that by the end of the game, you can say it was the team's fault and not the goalie's. We outshot them 13-5 in the first and were down 1-0. And this is not a new phenomenon. Check last year's playoff stats against the Bruins. We outplayed them in the first periods more times than you would expect.

I was hopeful about this kid in the beginning of the season. Sure, most of the shots were hitting him and he was giving up rebounds on easy shots, but I thought, maybe that was his style - be big in the nets. Unfortunately, he's reverted back to form. This is not to say I think Halak is the solution. I'm just saying we have a big problem in goaltending and this is entirely Gainey's fault.

3. The Mark Streit Fiasco. Turns out we lost a very good player and consequently weakened our power play and our team. Very subtly, this may turn out to be one of Gainey's biggest mistakes.

4. The Steve Bégin hiccup. I simply don't understand how we could have let this guy go.

5. Ribeiro for nothing. Again, a very bad decision. He's willing to give Price every chance in the world, yet gave up on this guy way too soon.

6. Michael Ryder. One bad season and he's gone. Good thing he wasn't gm when Beliveau had a so-so season the year before he retired.

Gainey's not as bad as Houle was, but it's closer than what you may think. He's not improved the team over his tenure. If anything, they're worse. It's time for him to move on and hopefully, the Molsons will make a better decision this time.

[ForumGhost]

- massive eye roll -

[redondo]

Come on, five games into the season and we're having these kinds of threads? LOL only in Montreal. Lets chill out, watch the games and see how we do a couple dozen games at least before making these kinds of pronouncements.

[Psycing]

The team could be 0-5, or they could be 4-1 just as easily.

Carey Price has proven he can play at every level - winning Gold, and Calder Cup... if you give him the time to develop (he's still only 22) at the NHL level, then he can become that player at this level as well. Don't forget the #1 reason why we won games 1 and 2 of the season was him... not he drops two matches and you're giving up on him?

We have arguably the best team, with better players than we've had in the last 15 years I've been watching. Gainey hasn't made this team worse, he's made it better. If he had chosen to keep Koivu and Kovalev, it would have still been a better team than I've watched for the majority of the late 90's and most of the 2000s. Gainey has brought the club to a new level where the team is actually able to compete for a spot and make the playoffs every season.

We're 5 games in and haven't even played a single road game yet. The team has been away from their homes and families for 2 weeks now, and yet still managed to stay in 4 of the 5 games they played to start the season.

If you fire Gainey, who are you going to bring in to replace him who knows the city, the pressure, the expectations as well as he?

People criticize him because he didn't bring a Cup in within his "5-year plan", but the team did capture a conference title and looked like they were going to have a deep run into the playoffs. It didn't happen. Then last year's chaotic meltdown, things had to change. Maybe he's starting a new multi-year plan, but given the talent the team has accumulated to this point, he's already on MUCH better footing than he was when he took over.

All that said, if the team fails to perform this season, and misses the playoffs - even with Markov out as an "excuse" - I do not foresee Gainey holding down the fort next year, and there will be change. However, I still have faith and the patience to give this season a little more time before throwing him out on the street. We're only 5 games in, the team might win their next 15 and you or someone else will be writing a post about how much a genius Gainey is.

[jackp]

Come on, five games into the season and we're having these kinds of threads? LOL only in Montreal. Lets chill out, watch the games and see how we do a couple dozen games at least before making these kinds of pronouncements.

Of course, I meant he should go after the season ends.

"Five game into the season????!!!!" So, you weren't watching last year? Or the past 6 years? We've had *1* good year during his tenure.

Why not address *all* of the points I've made, instead of only the 1st one?

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Many of these points have been debated ad nauseum, but this has been on my mind as well. Let me add a few thoughts:

1. The Great Gamble. So far, it doesn't look like it's working. We easily could be 0-5 so far this year. I know many of you didn't like Kovalev, but I sure would like to have him now. Also, I thought our defense would be better this year. It's not. It's worse. Could be I'm being unfair. Could be it's too early to judge. But, boy, god help us if this team decides to quit. Things will get even worse.

We evacuated an aging, declining core for a much younger one. That's smart. We took on Gomez's crazy salary. That's not smart. This new core is also not *obviously* superior in terms of skill than the old one was. Considering that the old one never won anything, that may or may not be smart. But it's waaay to early to conclude that the Great Gamble was a mistake.

3. The Mark Streit Fiasco. Turns out we lost a very good player and consequently weakened our power play and our team. Very subtly, this may turn out to be one of Gainey's biggest mistakes.

It is absolutely one of Bob's big blunders. Streit was just about the only bona-fide top-4 defenceman the Gainey regime successfully developed. Gainey's only defence is that very few people believe that Streit was the real deal; but like it or not, his *job* is to make that call and make it well. He blew it and the result is the present makeshift D and a 3-year contract to a declining Spacek. Not so hot, that.

4. The Steve Bégin hiccup. I simply don't understand how we could have let this guy go.

Puh-lease. Begin is NOTHING. This is a ludicrous claim that probably derives from watching too much French media hysteria.

5. Ribeiro for nothing. Again, a very bad decision. He's willing to give Price every chance in the world, yet gave up on this guy way too soon.

Yup, Ribs was a disastrous mistake. Grabovski was a repetition of this error in minature. There is no real defence.

6. Michael Ryder. One bad season and he's gone. Good thing he wasn't gm when Beliveau had a so-so season the year before he retired.

Again: Ryder is nothing. He lost his job to Andrei Kostitsyn for God's sake. Indeed, Bob did exactly what you need to do in a cap system, let go expensive vets and replace them with cheap rising talent. The problem is that Kostitsyn has failed to BUILD on his breakout season but has instead withdrawn into a sulky headcase.

Gainey's not as bad as Houle was, but it's closer than what you may think. He's not improved the team over his tenure. If anything, they're worse. It's time for him to move on and hopefully, the Molsons will make a better decision this time.

I'm surprised you omit Bob's single biggest failure: the failure to draft and/or develop a SINGLE elite-level hockey player except perhaps Streit and Price. At most one top-4 defenceman, and not a single unambiguous top-6 foward has been produced in the entire Gainey era. That is unacceptable and the single biggest justification - maybe the ONLY truly compelling justification - for firing Bob. Nonetheless, I'm reluctant to say he should be canned. But we need to see young players progressing, and soon.

By the way, the team is VASTLY better in every respect than it was under Houle. Houle was not fit to run a used car lot. Gainey has restored the franchise to such respectability that it can attract a raft of UFAs AND a sitting GM to coach it. You've forgotten just how low we sank under Houle. Bob has built a solid NHL team and organization. But he has failed to build a winner, and that really hurts.

[ForumGhost]

"Five game into the season????!!!!" So, you weren't watching last year? Or the past 6 years? We've had *1* good year during his tenure.

Except the team we've had in the past six years has not been this team.

[Psycing]

Why not address *all* of the points I've made, instead of only the 1st one?

Because he's made significant changes that may yet pan out if given the time. You can't fire him after he's just made a ton of important changes for the team. He would needed to have been fired or let go before he did all that. They let him go ahead with his new plan, so now they (we) have to live with it a little longer to see if it works out.

IF it does not work out, then yes, you have some interesting points in which Gainey ultimately must face the music, but, until then, it comes off as premature archaic banter.

[Psycing]

premature archaic banter.

K, maybe that part comes off a bit harsh, . I just mean, it's too early to crucify him for past "mistakes" or decisions when his most recent moves (not bringing back the guys who failed to get past the 2nd round; bringing in some proven winners) are yet to reach a point where they can be justly analyzed. There's still a chance he'll come off looking like a genius again if Gomez & Co. can make up for a poor Western road swing - a trip that hasn't gone well for us in many years.

[Habsy]

When one of your points is Steve Bégin, your thread should be closed. Fire a GM because of an oft injured 4th liner like Steve Bégin? C'mon. And we finally have a proper coach, can we give him a month to at least put his system in place. This sounds more like loaf-nation.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

We are 5 games into a season where we have a new coach, new assistant, new goal coach, half of the team is new and we lost our best player in the first game. You can see the growing pains by Martin's benchings, screamings and famous bag skate. It is clear to me that A. Kostitsyn for example is being taught to play a little bit differently than he is used to. The guy is struggling.

Give Matin and company some time. Some of our team gets it. Look at our super line. Those guys get it. Guys like Moen and Mara get it. The new guys are getting it, the returning guys are asking themselves WTF! I like Martin's "get with the program or piss-off" attitude.

Give them some time to get it.

[PMAC]

First, ARRRGH!

Second, the only reason I'm even dignifying this with a response is that I have a massive candidacy exam to do for my doctorate and an overwhelming need to procrastinate.

1. Are you going to fire the GM of every team with a poor start. Kovalev only has one goal. The defense has Weber not Markov. Unfair? no.... certainly its Bob's fault that Habs players suffer freak accidents. I mean if he hadnt traded Donald Audette to MTL when he was GM of the Stars then Audette never would have had his arm cut in a MTL uniform.

2. Price stole the first two games--give the kid a break- one of the goals against EDM was weak. Most goalies take time, sometimes years, to reach their peak. Ever hear of a young goalie who struggled and was considered not to have fulfilled his potential named Marc Ande Fleury?

3. Mark Streit is still wildly overpaid and would not get that ice time on most other clubs. Had Bob signed Steit to a huge contract he would have been critisized for overpaying also exactly how much has Streit elevated the Isles? Oh, right they suck, how could I forget?

4. Begin asked for a trade, Bob in a show of class--IMHO-- repaid his years of service by honoring the request. If you want to blame someone for this, blame Carbo, the coach chooses the players who play and their ice time

5. Ancient history-- and Riberio was not--except for Kozed, if I remember correctly mourned on this board.

6. Micheal Ryder was a free agent--one, again, who did not get along with Carbo-- and in his last season in MTL he sucked-- he doesnt do anything to merit a place in the lineup if he isnt scoring goals and he didnt in his free agent year. If I remember correctly the reaction to BOS signing him was to ridicule the B's from the "experts" both on here and in the media--myself included

7. To even mention the dark ages of Houle and Bob Gainey in the same sentence is laughable. To do it after 5 games when the best player on the team was hurt in game 1 :puke:

8. If this season is a failure--which I define as not getting past the second round of the playoffs-- then we can call for Bob;'s head with justification but until then I'm giving all future such threads a miss

While I realize it's still very early in the year, I think it's time for Gainey to go. The litany of mistakes has snowballed to the point where we look like we're gonna have a very bad team this year. Let's examine some facts:

1. The Great Gamble. So far, it doesn't look like it's working. We easily could be 0-5 so far this year. I know many of you didn't like Kovalev, but I sure would like to have him now. Also, I thought our defense would be better this year. It's not. It's worse. Could be I'm being unfair. Could be it's too early to judge. But, boy, god help us if this team decides to quit. Things will get even worse.

2. The Carey Price saga. I don't mind that Gainey picked him as our number 5 pick. First round picks are never guaranteed. I DO mind that he stubbornly insists on proving that his pick was a good one by costing us an embarassing playoff loss, and game after game after game. Last night, the Oilers had 3 goals on 10 shots. Anyone who has ever played at any level, knows what it does to a team when your goalie is simply not there. The team starts to play badly so that by the end of the game, you can say it was the team's fault and not the goalie's. We outshot them 13-5 in the first and were down 1-0. And this is not a new phenomenon. Check last year's playoff stats against the Bruins. We outplayed them in the first periods more times than you would expect.

I was hopeful about this kid in the beginning of the season. Sure, most of the shots were hitting him and he was giving up rebounds on easy shots, but I thought, maybe that was his style - be big in the nets. Unfortunately, he's reverted back to form. This is not to say I think Halak is the solution. I'm just saying we have a big problem in goaltending and this is entirely Gainey's fault.

3. The Mark Streit Fiasco. Turns out we lost a very good player and consequently weakened our power play and our team. Very subtly, this may turn out to be one of Gainey's biggest mistakes.

4. The Steve Bégin hiccup. I simply don't understand how we could have let this guy go.

5. Ribeiro for nothing. Again, a very bad decision. He's willing to give Price every chance in the world, yet gave up on this guy way too soon.

6. Michael Ryder. One bad season and he's gone. Good thing he wasn't gm when Beliveau had a so-so season the year before he retired.

Gainey's not as bad as Houle was, but it's closer than what you may think. He's not improved the team over his tenure. If anything, they're worse. It's time for him to move on and hopefully, the Molsons will make a better decision this time.

[Psycing]

First, ARRRGH!

Second, the only reason I'm even dignifying this with a response is that I have a massive candidacy exam to do for my doctorate and an overwhelming need to procrastinate.

Hahaha, that's why I "found" the time to reply.

[Toronthab]

Because he's made significant changes that may yet pan out if given the time. You can't fire him after he's just made a ton of important changes for the team. He would needed to have been fired or let go before he did all that. They let him go ahead with his new plan, so now they (we) have to live with it a little longer to see if it works out.

IF it does not work out, then yes, you have some interesting points in which Gainey ultimately must face the music, but, until then, it comes off as premature archaic banter.

A GM has to gamble and Bob has balls of steel. His job is to make good long term decisions and make the best moves available to him. I sometimes think that we ascribe Godlike powers on the poor man, such that when it doesn't work out, it's necessarily his fault that results don't follow.

Price was and continues to be a gamble. Two years ago we had a wonderful team. Last year we had a phenomenal team. Exit Lang and key personnel with injuries, and we are left with a rookie kid goalie with the weight of a collapsing season crushing the life out of him.

Gainey had it mostly in place, and he was and is right to build from the goal out.

It frankly doesn't matter if Price makes it or not: it was still an excellent move. I miss Kovalev, but he got an offer. I remember how grateful I was that uncle Bob was able , on his personal stature alone, to draw this great talent to Montreal. He took another million and left.

I was one who couldn't stand watching Ribeiro and Ryder playing. Ryder was just HORRIBLE and worse than useless in his last stint here, and good for him that he is rolling again as so often happens. Was Carbs a good choice to coach? Probably. Was it a good move to move him; probably.

I'm sure Mr G has made some mistakes, and much as I liked the little guy who was paid to hit till his back hurt, Begin probably wasn't one of them. Bob is a longterm thinker, looking to build a team that can compete for a decade.

He's made excellent moves for this team and I am still thrilled that he isn't GM in Toronto.

Go Bob Go!!!!

[jackp]

When one of your points is Steve Bégin, your thread should be closed. Fire a GM because of an oft injured 4th liner like Steve Bégin? C'mon. And we finally have a proper coach, can we give him a month to at least put his system in place. This sounds more like loaf-nation.

You obviously haven't been paying attention to what the Bruins themselves have been saying about Steve Bégin. They say his play (work ethic, intensity, etc.) has been inspirational. They say he's a valuable addition to their team. (I just wish I could remember where I read these Bruins comments - I'd love to be able to document what I'm saying here.)

[jackp]

First, ARRRGH!

Second, the only reason I'm even dignifying this with a response is that I have a massive candidacy exam to do for my doctorate and an overwhelming need to procrastinate.

You'll make a good professor. Many of my old profs were as arrogant as this. But please allow me to thank you for condescending to reply to me. You've just made my day. Maybe I should print your response and put it up on my wall...

[BCHabnut]

I would take Metropolit over Begin any day. I was going to right a long response, but PMAC pretty much summed it up. We laughed when Ryder and Streit were signed. We ALL thought Streit was weak defensively and Ryder was given many chances and didn't cash in. If AK plays like he is now for the next two years, do you sign him for 4 years and 4 million? No. If he lights it up on the new team, do you hate the GM for not signing him? Well, we all will, but I don't think it's a reason to fire him.

There is a theme to the way Bob Gainey does business, and a flaw which I think he needs to reassess. Bob Gainey will not tolerate players that negatively affect the culture of the team. Ribiero is a prime example. He gave him away for a bag of pucks, because he was affecting the culture in the dressing room. He should have waited. Same with Grabs. These guys are great players and should have brought more in the way of assets. SK affects the culture...down you go. It is the one thing that I wish he could solve in a better way. Ribs would be a great 1st C right now, and it really hurts to think that we are paying Gomez that money when Ribiero would probably be in the 5 million range.

I think the key issue with the Gainey regime is as CC says. Player developement. Where are all the stars? First liners and top 4 Defensemen. Hopefully Price is one of them, but I am certainly not convinced. I believe he doesn't have the head for the game. Someone that I thought was a cool fish, turned out to be a scared pot head kid!

My firing gage will be playoff performance. They have to make and play well in the playoffs.

Edited October 11, 2009 by BCHabnut

[jackp]

My firing gage will be playoff performance. They have to make and play well in the playoffs.

I'll say it right now - Oct 11/09 - this team is not going to make the playoffs. (At least, that's what I believe from what I've seen so far.)

C'mon Habs, make a fool of me. I'd welcome it!

[ForumGhost]

Firing a GM based on five games is a joke. Anyone can tell you that.

[jackp]

Firing a GM based on five games is a joke. Anyone can tell you that.

Please read the whole thread before commenting. I clarified what I had said. Based on what's happened so far, I said Gainey should be fired *at the end of the season.*

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

First, ARRRGH!

Second, the only reason I'm even dignifying this with a response is that I have a massive candidacy exam to do for my doctorate and an overwhelming need to procrastinate.

Hey! Doctorate in what? I had to write two massive 'qualifying exams' as part of the process for mine - my eyeglasses prescription increased by a couple of notches and it was the end of the relaxing sleep of my youth I feel your pain, brother!

[BTH]

Lobbying to get a GM fired in his sixth season isn't trolling. But - who's out there that could replace Gainey? It's easy to say "fire Carbo! fire Gainey! trade Price!" but then who is going to be our replacement? I don't see anyone available who I'd prefer.

I also think your choice of things to complain about, jackp, shows some bias. I mean, Begin and Ryder? They played their ways off the team! How can Gainey be blamed for not offering a second liner coming off of a horrid season more than 4 million dollars a year? There are enough arguments out there to make a case against Gainey without ever mentioning Begin and Ryder.

[JLP]

Gainey gave us a dream, now we just have a team. Some fans feel ripped off waiting five years. He'll go but not now, end of the season, that is, unless we get deep in the playoffs which i hope we do!

[Psycing]

If anything, Martin can take over GM and Guy Boucher can come up an Coach.

I still prefer things as they are though.

[huzer]

You obviously haven't been paying attention to what the Bruins themselves have been saying about Steve Bégin. They say his play (work ethic, intensity, etc.) has been inspirational. They say he's a valuable addition to their team. (I just wish I could remember where I read these Bruins comments - I'd love to be able to document what I'm saying here.)

I also recall his work ethic and intensity not being question when he played for the Habs. However, his injury history, dumb penalty history, trade grumblings when scratched, and generally being overpaid for a 5th liner were appropriately his ticket out of town. I thought that the original signings and salaries of both Begin and Bouillon were poor at the time, and still feel so. I'm glad the Bruins players are happy with a new teammate. Honestly though, what would you expect them to say? There may be other valid arguments for Gainey's dismissal, but to list Begin as one of them borders on ridiculous.