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Habs put Halak on the market


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Kozed. That's because backup goalies with potential don't get you top young forwards. No matter who the GM is. And don't call someone's opinion irrelevant, if that were the case, what makes yours, or anyones relevant?

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Kozed. That's because backup goalies with potential don't get you top young forwards. No matter who the GM is. And don't call someone's opinion irrelevant, if that were the case, what makes yours, or anyones relevant?

I didnt say someone's opinion is irrelevant. An opinion is an opinion. As a rule, any opinion is only as valuable as the credibility you give the person who emits said opinion.

I said, verbatim: "You can argue [the Rivet trade] all you want. What you say is irrelevant. My point is: Gainey's track record doesnt allow me to have faith"

I'll simplify it for you: arguing that the Rivet deal was a good one is irrelevant as far as my faith in Gainey is concerned. In other words: no argument about a Gainey trade is relevant when discussing my belief in what can be expected of a potential Halak deal.

Do you think I forgot about the Rivet or Kovalev deals and suddenly someone mentioning them will instantly change my faith in Gainey getting a good deal for Halak? You're talking to someone who has been following the Habs & NHL daily for decades. My faith/belief/opinion is very well informed. You might not agree with my evaluation/judgment of Gainey's record; but you can't seriously expect that just mentioning the Rivet trade would be a relevant.

Imagine that you have a scientist who has been studying Earth climate's for decades and he says "I'm pessimistic for the future because of this Global warming I've witnessed in recent years". Do you think that to go up and tell him "Global warming? Hey, the winter of 2002 was really cold!" would be relevant?

@alexstream: Gorges = Rivet. Both are average D's with limited talent who's main NHL ticket is hard work. Nothing more, nothing less. 4 quarters for a dollar.

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Nobody needed you to simplify anything, trust me on that one. Your faith in Bob Gainey is irrelevant. Halak is a good little backup, with potential. Just don't expect too much for him in a trade, that way you won't be so disappointed when the player Bob acquires is not part of your dream team.

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Montreal was the only team willing to take on Kovy and his salary in 2004 and was again the only willing to take on Gomez and his salary in 2009. Gainey had financial leverage in the trade. Read the last two sentences I wrote until you get it.

:rolleyes:

You're going to have to do a lot better than that. Kovalev was an impending free agent and this trade happened on March 2nd. I can't find the exact contract figures but he likely had 1-1.5 million left on his deal? Possibly even less, like I said, I do not know how much he was making that season. But I do know that his deal was set to expire.

Saying that we were the only team that could take on his salary might sound great for your argument, but it simply isn't true.

The fact that you feel the need to compare a deal for a player with 5 years remaining on his contract to a deal for a player with 4 months remaining on his contract is laughable.

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@alexstream: Gorges = Rivet. Both are average D's with limited talent who's main NHL ticket is hard work. Nothing more, nothing less. 4 quarters for a dollar.

Yep same player. 4 quarters for a loonie guys. Cept for that decade that separates them...oh and their free agent status at the time...oh and 2.5 million dollars per season...

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I was just thinking that Bob hasn't had many opportunities where he actually had the player with value. You could say SJ wanted Rivet, and he made a deal where he got more than a fair return. Beyond that, we can't say that Ribs had any appeal to anyone else, and he did end up hanging onto Souray and Streit allowing them to walk.

Either way, what I'm saying is Bob hasn't found himself in enough opportunities where he has held an asset he was looking to trade that was actually worth something to really say how good he is or isn't at taking value in one form (young goalie) and turn it into equivalent or better value in another form (other player, pick, or combination). Halak's worth is debatable, so I guess we'll see. My bet is Bob finds an underwhelming market and holds on to him. Call it safe, nancy, whatever, but it's not a bad idea.

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I was just thinking that Bob hasn't had many opportunities where he actually had the player with value. You could say SJ wanted Rivet, and he made a deal where he got more than a fair return. Beyond that, we can't say that Ribs had any appeal to anyone else, and he did end up hanging onto Souray and Streit allowing them to walk.

Either way, what I'm saying is Bob hasn't found himself in enough opportunities where he has held an asset he was looking to trade that was actually worth something to really say how good he is or isn't at taking value in one form (young goalie) and turn it into equivalent or better value in another form (other player, pick, or combination). Halak's worth is debatable, so I guess we'll see. My bet is Bob finds an underwhelming market and holds on to him. Call it safe, nancy, whatever, but it's not a bad idea.

and that is the best analysis of the habs situation I have seen. Bob has to deal with the situations he has, and

while unlike kozed he does not have 20 20 hind site, he makes the best deal he can. Rivet was so good in sj that he is still playing there. Whoops no he's not they dumped him for nothing. and josh gorges oh yeah he is with the big club playing 20+ mins per nite and the draft pick oh he is still here too. what a shitty deal. Nobody wanted ribs until he started doing well in minny now he is suddenly the reincarnation of guy lafleur give me a break. Bob has always imho done what had to be done to keep the club competitive and there are guys who are on the trade bubble all the time. Mr halak is an incredible story drafted where? oh yeah 300+ overall. and we are talking about getting a serious asset for him, boy this club has got to improve it's development and drafting. Thank god bob is running this team and not kozed.

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So you're saying Gainey took a risk in trading for that draft pick?

No. I'm saying it's a draft pick. A draft pick is a relatively safe trade, because its like the hockey currency, it's like cash, or if you prefer like buying a debt with a fixed value at the moment of the trade (the safe part). It's an "IOU": I owe you a player, I wont give him to you now, you'll have to wait but you have to chose him from the limited group of players I have, you will be able to chose him yourself from the hundreds of players available at the draft (the risk part). Trading a body for a body and a high pick is a very safe trade.  

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and that is the best analysis of the habs situation I have seen. Bob has to deal with the situations he has, and

while unlike kozed he does not have 20 20 hind site, he makes the best deal he can. Rivet was so good in sj that he is still playing there. Whoops no he's not they dumped him for nothing. and josh gorges oh yeah he is with the big club playing 20+ mins per nite and the draft pick oh he is still here too. what a shitty deal. Nobody wanted ribs until he started doing well in minny now he is suddenly the reincarnation of guy lafleur give me a break. Bob has always imho done what had to be done to keep the club competitive and there are guys who are on the trade bubble all the time. Mr halak is an incredible story drafted where? oh yeah 300+ overall. and we are talking about getting a serious asset for him, boy this club has got to improve it's development and drafting. Thank god bob is running this team and not kozed.

*yawn*

You know, you Gainey fan boys could just save us the trouble and spare us the long diatribes. 

I've made a special pic just for you, one that sums up in a nutshell all your repetitive worn out clichés to every post that's slightly critical about Bob:

bobnephew.jpg

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hehehe -- anyway how long do we have to wait for the Halak trade? Days? Weeks? Trade deadline? And does the public declaration that he's "on the block" raise or lower the probable return?

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hehehe -- anyway how long do we have to wait for the Halak trade? Days? Weeks? Trade deadline? And does the public declaration that he's "on the block" raise or lower the probable return?

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

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*yawn*

You know, you Gainey fan boys could just save us the trouble and spare us the long diatribes. 

I've made a special pic just for you, one that sums up in a nutshell all your repetitive worn out clichés to every post that's slightly critical about Bob:

bobnephew.jpg

I guess you win Kozed, with the weakest cliche possible. Right up there with "plan the parade" and "jump on the bandwagon". So you try to defend something, and you're a fan boy, brilliant. Why don't you spare us your FAITH in Gainey trouble, nobody cares. *yawn* Bob traded the great quebecois hope, Ribeiro, and he'll never win in these parts.

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How did this "declaration" begin? It just seems really odd for Gainey to declare one of our players is on the market. Without a major scandal or a player's request to be traded, when has Gainey ever done something like this?

Rogers Sportsnet. They have all the news. Don't they? :unsure:

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I was just thinking that Bob hasn't had many opportunities where he actually had the player with value. You could say SJ wanted Rivet, and he made a deal where he got more than a fair return. Beyond that, we can't say that Ribs had any appeal to anyone else, and he did end up hanging onto Souray and Streit allowing them to walk.

Either way, what I'm saying is Bob hasn't found himself in enough opportunities where he has held an asset he was looking to trade that was actually worth something to really say how good he is or isn't at taking value in one form (young goalie) and turn it into equivalent or better value in another form (other player, pick, or combination). Halak's worth is debatable, so I guess we'll see. My bet is Bob finds an underwhelming market and holds on to him. Call it safe, nancy, whatever, but it's not a bad idea.

I disagree.

Souray was an asset that he refused to deal so that the Canadiens could sneak into the playoffs, which they did not.

Streit was an asset that he could have dealt for a large return but refused because the Canadiens were contenders, yet in the same

situation flipped Huet for a 2nd rounder to a team that he could have possibly faced in the first round. If the goal was the Cup, why

the two drastically different approaches?

Komisarek was an asset that could have been traded last February, but instead we got 4 games of Lucic slapping him around.

Call it hindsight, but I would have argued for trading them had I known that the goal was to let them walk for nothing.

He has had opportunities, but the Gainey era has played out as very safe. It has been prevalent in his 1 year RFA offers, his

unwillingness to invest in multi-year contracts for his prospects.

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Komisarek was an asset that could have been traded last February, but instead we got 4 games of Lucic slapping him around.

He was offered a contract after the season, wasn't he?

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I guess you win Kozed, with the weakest cliche possible. Right up there with "plan the parade" and "jump on the bandwagon". So you try to defend something, and you're a fan boy, brilliant. Why don't you spare us your FAITH in Gainey trouble, nobody cares. *yawn* Bob traded the great quebecois hope, Ribeiro, and he'll never win in these parts.

Well Habsy, if you think that after 5 years, any lack of faith in Gainey's trading abilities should be automatically dismissed as some language issue; I think you've just stated the absolute weakest cliche possible. YOU win.

He was offered a contract after the season, wasn't he?

But not during the season, I think that was Wamsley's point.

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I disagree.

Souray was an asset that he refused to deal so that the Canadiens could sneak into the playoffs, which they did not.

Streit was an asset that he could have dealt for a large return but refused because the Canadiens were contenders, yet in the same

situation flipped Huet for a 2nd rounder to a team that he could have possibly faced in the first round. If the goal was the Cup, why

the two drastically different approaches?

Komisarek was an asset that could have been traded last February, but instead we got 4 games of Lucic slapping him around.

Call it hindsight, but I would have argued for trading them had I known that the goal was to let them walk for nothing.

He has had opportunities, but the Gainey era has played out as very safe. It has been prevalent in his 1 year RFA offers, his

unwillingness to invest in multi-year contracts for his prospects.

so your position is that everybody who can be traded should be? interesting but you need to have 2 people to agree to a trade. we have no idea if there were, are partners for these trades. Trades simply aren't that simple in the cap era.

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*yawn*

You know, you Gainey fan boys could just save us the trouble and spare us the long diatribes. 

I've made a special pic just for you, one that sums up in a nutshell all your repetitive worn out clichés to every post that's slightly critical about Bob:

bobnephew.jpg

I'm no Gainey fanboy. I just like to point out when you have no idea what you're talking about, hence my participation in this thread :P

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I'm no Gainey fanboy. I just like to point out when you have no idea what you're talking about, hence my participation in this thread :P

If you think one trade makes a pattern, you might be the one who has no idea what he's talking about.

In 6 years, Gainey made about 4 deals that can be considered shrewed upgrades: Balej & 2nd for Kovalev, Garon & 3rd for Huet & Bonk, Rivet & 5nd for Gorges & 1st (Pacioretty) and maybe the Gomez deal. Compared to those 4, I give you 14 sideways/downgrade moves:

Quintal for future considerations

Marcel Hossa for Garth Murray

Theodore for Aebischer

Zednik for a 3rd

4th for Johnson

Traverse for Biron

Ribeiro & 6th for Niinimaa & 5th (Conboy)

Samsonov for Cullimore & Salmelainen

Huet for 2nd (later traded to ATL + 3rd for Schneider).

1st and 2nd for Tanguay

Grabovski for Pateryn & 2nd

Locke for Belle

Begin for Janik

Chipchura for 4th

Notice the real trend/pattern?

This isnt about wither that or this trade was "good". Saved for Trizzak, almost everyone who replied completely missed the point and just went into predictable "Leave Gainey Alone" mode.

The point is "what type of trade does Bob usually does". Gainey almost never trades a roster player for an equal/better roster player. The general trend is a roster player for a downgrade player or a pick, sometimes both.

That's Gainey's track record I have in mind when I contemplate a potential Halak trade. I see Halak for a downgrade goalie with no upside and a pick. Very underwhelming considering Halak's upside. I'd hope that a kid of Halak's quality would fetch us an equally good roster player, but given Gainey's track record; I dont see it happening.

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Question: would the Habs be better off with a top-four puck moving defender over a top-six forward? We have zero transition game (to be improved when Markov gets back, but the more the better the offense, IMO). I understand that a top-six attacking guy would be great... until he gets here, gets placed in the system, and then doesn't get the puck like all the boys we have on the ice now. Unless that top-six forward is of the calibre of Crosby, i.e. a guy who can actually take control of the offense on his own, I can't see someone stepping in to make that big a difference.

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