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Habs put Halak on the market


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BTH's argument about Halak being likely to have a short shelf-life as a top-tier #1 goalie is well-taken. Of course, he might go on to a strong career for the next decade, too (the Hasek model). As for Price being 'slow,' I don't believe this. When he first broke in many analysts pointed to the strength of his lateral movement. Something else is the problem there...possibly fundamental problems of mental resilience, talent, and character, possibly transitional problems flowing from learning the game. Certainly if you had an equivalent prospect who was a position player, thoughtful analysists would warn against giving up on him at this stage of his career, especially when he's already had substantial stretches where he did play very well.

So I'm of the school that says it is simply too soon to make a decision on either guy. Sure, it'd be nice to move one of them at peak trading value - but it'd be worse to join the ranks of the Phladelphias, Ottawas, Vancouver before Luongo, and even Detroits, teams that have had legitimate contenders undermined by patchwork 'solutions' in nets. Patience must be the watchword here.

And I agree that it is truly bizarre how many teams have failed to recognize the importance of goaltending. Philly and Detroit could each have won an extra two or three Cups over the last couple of decades if they'd developed proper, long-term solutions at this position. Even today, Chicago and Washington - teams that should be gearing up for their Big Chance to Win it All - are both crossing their fingers in nets!! It's crazy. :wacko:

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I don't understand why people constantly put down Halak. If he was not ruining their dream of "Price the next Roy", they would be all screaming to sign Halak and sign him fast.

I swear, Halak could take us all the way to the cup and some people would say.. "trade him now while his value is high".

Halak has consistently been a good to great goalie. He has less experience then Price (in games in the NHL), yet is out performing him. I don't want Price traded, I just want him to work at his game and wait for his opportunity. It will come. As for halak, keep him. We can trade him in a couple years if Price has taken over. There is no rush to dump either of them.

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We wont be able to afford Halak if he continues like this but the good thing about it is that Price cant demand much of a raise this summer which gives us a better chance at resigning Plekanec.

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What this team can't afford now they spent it long term with middle rank

players that have not even been chosen to represent their country in the

Olympics.

Hamrlik- Spacek or Zbynek Michalek, Roman Polak, Dan Hejda, Miroslav Blatak ??

If they deserved near the kinf of money they are getting paid by MTL, they would play for their country over these players.

Gomez, Gionta were not what the US team needed.

So just the possibility of losing Halak or Plekanek just because Bob overpaid players

to fill holes not filled by the draft system is very frustrating.

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BTH's argument about Halak being likely to have a short shelf-life as a top-tier #1 goalie is well-taken. Of course, he might go on to a strong career for the next decade, too (the Hasek model). As for Price being 'slow,' I don't believe this. When he first broke in many analysts pointed to the strength of his lateral movement. Something else is the problem there...possibly fundamental problems of mental resilience, talent, and character, possibly transitional problems flowing from learning the game. Certainly if you had an equivalent prospect who was a position player, thoughtful analysists would warn against giving up on him at this stage of his career, especially when he's already had substantial stretches where he did play very well.

So I'm of the school that says it is simply too soon to make a decision on either guy. Sure, it'd be nice to move one of them at peak trading value - but it'd be worse to join the ranks of the Phladelphias, Ottawas, Vancouver before Luongo, and even Detroits, teams that have had legitimate contenders undermined by patchwork 'solutions' in nets. Patience must be the watchword here.

And I agree that it is truly bizarre how many teams have failed to recognize the importance of goaltending. Philly and Detroit could each have won an extra two or three Cups over the last couple of decades if they'd developed proper, long-term solutions at this position. Even today, Chicago and Washington - teams that should be gearing up for their Big Chance to Win it All - are both crossing their fingers in nets!! It's crazy. :wacko:

Patience? What is that? Price should be a dominant number one at the age of 22 even though there is ZERO goaltenders in NHL history who accomplished this at 22. And no, stats alone do not make a dominant goaltender. Roy and Brodeur had some strong statistical seasons but

played behind Pat Burns and Jacques Lemaire, two of the greatest defensive coaches of all-time. Anybody who watched the 1988 Canadiens

knows how inconsistent St. Patrick was.

Goaltending is one of the hardest positions in sports to learn. Anybody who has gone to goalie school, researched goaltending, read

Allaire's book etc understand the importance of lateral movement, the butterfly slide and the gruelling footwork it takes to accomplish

these things. Unfortunately, there is more to goaltending than footwork. Mental toughness, anticipation, reading the play properly, work ethic and athleticism are also essential. Most goaltenders are 3-4 tool athletes, hence why it is so difficult to assess who is better and why the lazy

thing to do is point at numbers. Numbers fluctuate so greatly that you cannot assess Halak's career to Price's on such a small sample.

Look at the roller coaster ride of Brodeur's year by year SV%.

21 yrs old - .915

22 yrs old - .902

23 yrs old - .911

24 yrs old - .927

25 yrs old - .917

26 yrs old - .906

27 yrs old - .906

Up and down, Up and down etc etc etc.

Price has some of the best footwork and lateral movement I have ever seen. Watch how quick he is laterally and ignore everything else.

Right now he is adjusting to the league, unfortunately they are adjusting to him as well. You could see in the Washington game that he still

struggles at times with anticipation and for weeks at a time he gets by on sheer athleticism. You DO NOT give up on a player like that because

"he will return more in a trade".

That is the most ridiculous train of thought I have ever heard. Should the Hawks trade Toews and keep Kane because Toews will

return more? There is a ######ing reason he will return more.

Halak has shown me that he has a larger upside than I anticipated, but a strong olympics does not make him elite. He needs to go through

the league again before you make a proper assessment.

The move right now is to keep BOTH of them past this season. No goaltender has ever received a monster RFA contract after 70 strong games.

He will be cheap, with Price's struggles, so will he.

Patience is required right now, the question is will the Habs panic.

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Patience? What is that? Price should be a dominant number one at the age of 22 even though there is ZERO goaltenders in NHL history who accomplished this at 22. And no, stats alone do not make a dominant goaltender. Roy and Brodeur had some strong statistical seasons but

played behind Pat Burns and Jacques Lemaire, two of the greatest defensive coaches of all-time. Anybody who watched the 1988 Canadiens

knows how inconsistent St. Patrick was.

Goaltending is one of the hardest positions in sports to learn. Anybody who has gone to goalie school, researched goaltending, read

Allaire's book etc understand the importance of lateral movement, the butterfly slide and the gruelling footwork it takes to accomplish

these things. Unfortunately, there is more to goaltending than footwork. Mental toughness, anticipation, reading the play properly, work ethic and athleticism are also essential. Most goaltenders are 3-4 tool athletes, hence why it is so difficult to assess who is better and why the lazy

thing to do is point at numbers. Numbers fluctuate so greatly that you cannot assess Halak's career to Price's on such a small sample.

Look at the roller coaster ride of Brodeur's year by year SV%.

21 yrs old - .915

22 yrs old - .902

23 yrs old - .911

24 yrs old - .927

25 yrs old - .917

26 yrs old - .906

27 yrs old - .906

Up and down, Up and down etc etc etc.

Price has some of the best footwork and lateral movement I have ever seen. Watch how quick he is laterally and ignore everything else.

Right now he is adjusting to the league, unfortunately they are adjusting to him as well. You could see in the Washington game that he still

struggles at times with anticipation and for weeks at a time he gets by on sheer athleticism. You DO NOT give up on a player like that because

"he will return more in a trade".

That is the most ridiculous train of thought I have ever heard. Should the Hawks trade Toews and keep Kane because Toews will

return more? There is a ######ing reason he will return more.

Halak has shown me that he has a larger upside than I anticipated, but a strong olympics does not make him elite. He needs to go through

the league again before you make a proper assessment.

The move right now is to keep BOTH of them past this season. No goaltender has ever received a monster RFA contract after 70 strong games.

He will be cheap, with Price's struggles, so will he.

Patience is required right now, the question is will the Habs panic.

Good that we agree on this. It's a frustrating and anxiety-filled time to be a Habs fan, because after years of Bob Gainey - who, although he made some stunning decisions, followed a fairly clear modus operandi - we have a basically unknown commodity as GM. Is Gauthier a cool-headed, patient man, the kind of man who will coolly wait for the situation in nets to clarify itself before acting? (*Probably* what Gainey would do, unless his Price fetish led him to prematurely dispense with Halak). Is he a more impulsive type who thinks short-term, like that idiot in Atlanta (in which case one of these guys is gone for immediate help)? Is he a guy who identifies what he wants and overpays to get it (as that wasteful Moore trade suggests)? Well, you got me. It would be interesting if some hardy soul were to thoroughly analyze Gauthier's other stints as GM to offer some hints as to his thought processes and decision-making patterns.Then again, those were different situations.

In any case, the next week should tell a big part of this tale. But as for goaltending, yes, wait and see; I don't understand how some fans can be so dogmatically sure that Price or Halak is THE guy. The actual evidence is so much muddier than that.

Edited by The Chicoutimi Cucumber
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My thoughts to trade Halak is if signing him comes at the cost of losing Plek is not something the habs can afford. They have a player in Price that can tend goal decently, he has in the past, but they have no one in the minors that do the role of a #1/#2 centre. This really hinges on how Halak and his agent plays it, if they want too much, it could be his ticket out of here.

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What I fear the most is that Halak might ditch us completely for the KHL unless we make a choice between him and Price and since Price is the obvious choice (not saying it is my obvious choice but the clubs) we need to send Halak and why not do that at this moment when his value is at its highest ever?

Huet didnt have many seasons as a top starter when Chicago signed him for over 5M / year so why wouldnt Halak be able to get the same?

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My thoughts to trade Halak is if signing him comes at the cost of losing Plek is not something the habs can afford. They have a player in Price that can tend goal decently, he has in the past, but they have no one in the minors that do the role of a #1/#2 centre. This really hinges on how Halak and his agent plays it, if they want too much, it could be his ticket out of here.

BINGO. We have depth in the nets, no depth in offense and no cap space to sign everybody with raises they'll ask for. There is nothing saying the market for Halak will be better this summer for a goalie than right now. I would proceed next week.

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My thoughts to trade Halak is if signing him comes at the cost of losing Plek is not something the habs can afford. They have a player in Price that can tend goal decently, he has in the past, but they have no one in the minors that do the role of a #1/#2 centre. This really hinges on how Halak and his agent plays it, if they want too much, it could be his ticket out of here.

Gee Bar > You would trade Halak if it meant you could keep Plekanec but you wouldn't trade Price to accomplish the same thing. But you haven't crowned anyone King yet?

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Bluekross, signing Price is not going to prevent signing Plek, the way Price has played since season doesn't see him to getting a huge, if any raise. Another thing, you realize how trades are won and lost right? Sell high, buy low? Trading Price, if that's that they wanted to do, would net you very little.

Instead of attacking my, why not try to attack my post, would you sign Halak at the expense of Plek? The habs had trouble with goal scoring this year, you think they would be a better or worse team in that department without Plek?

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Except that the same way there is no guarantee Halak won't bolt to the KHL, there is also no guarantee Plekanec will resign with us even if we do have the $$$. We really don't have a great FA retention record, do we? Also, if you're presumably trading Halak for NHL-level help up front, that player will have a salary that has to be paid as well, unless you just wanna trade him for picks hoping we get to sign Plek. Suddenly the savings may be not as substantial as people assume.

In a not overly far-fetched worst case scenario (and I say this with all faith in Price btw.) Carey could be perfectly on track to becoming the franchise goalie we are hoping for and STILL not be fully ready to be a #1 for 50-60 games next year in which case I can see him being crucified by the fans and shipped out of town, only to blossom into the next Roy elsewhere. IMO, better to hang onto your insurance policy in goal (Halak), re-sign him and then if Price ends up being all that he is supposed to be you ease him in with far less pressure and THEN trade away the insurance.

If we can make room elsewhere to sign Pleks great, but honestly the way I see it, even if this team stays intact (so with Pleks on board) next year, we are not a competitor. And if this season ends up being an aberration for him - and it's possible, you just handcuffed yourself even further for years, with no true game-breaking talent on the roster. Ouch. If it were me, I would package Pleks and one of Hammer or Spacek instead, not for sake of keeping Halak, but for sake of getting back some much needed cap manouverability AND an interesting piece or two back. But that's just me.

Edited by redondo
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Except that the same way there is no guarantee Halak won't bolt to the KHL, there is also no guarantee Plekanec will resign with us even if we do have the $$$. We really don't have a great FA retention record, do we? Also, if you're presumably trading Halak for NHL-level help up front, that player will have a salary that has to be paid as well, unless you just wanna trade him for picks hoping we get to sign Plek. Suddenly the savings may be not as substantial as people assume.

In a not overly far-fetched worst case scenario (and I say this with all faith in Price btw.) Carey could be perfectly on track to becoming the franchise goalie we are hoping for and STILL not be fully ready to be a #1 for 50-60 games next year in which case I can see him being crucified by the fans and shipped out of town, only to blossom into the next Roy elsewhere. IMO, better to hang onto your insurance policy in goal (Halak), re-sign him and then if Price ends up being all that he is supposed to be you ease him in with far less pressure and THEN trade away the insurance.

If we can make room elsewhere to sign Pleks great, but honestly the way I see it, even if this team stays intact (so with Pleks on board) next year, we are not a competitor. And if this season ends up being an aberration for him - and it's possible, you just handcuffed yourself even further for years, with no true game-breaking talent on the roster. Ouch. If it were me, I would package Pleks and one of Hammer or Spacek instead, not for sake of keeping Halak, but for sake of getting back some much needed cap manouverability AND an interesting piece or two back. But that's just me.

Exact. I've been saying this for ages now. Halak alone can't bring a player in our cap situation. Halak alone brings a pick, the highest the best. If we wanna bring a player back, Hammer or X has to go with Halak.

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Bluekross, signing Price is not going to prevent signing Plek, the way Price has played since season doesn't see him to getting a huge, if any raise. Another thing, you realize how trades are won and lost right? Sell high, buy low? Trading Price, if that's that they wanted to do, would net you very little.

Instead of attacking my, why not try to attack my post, would you sign Halak at the expense of Plek? The habs had trouble with goal scoring this year, you think they would be a better or worse team in that department without Plek?

But trading Price (regardless of the return) would also free up the space to sign Plekanec. Why rule it out completely?

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But trading Price (regardless of the return) would also free up the space to sign Plekanec. Why rule it out completely?

Id like to hear Halak or his agent say that he doesnt want to be traded anymore first but until that happens Halak is the one to trade AND his value should be higher than Price's right now anyway and we dont have that many days to decide.

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Bluekross, signing Price is not going to prevent signing Plek, the way Price has played since season doesn't see him to getting a huge, if any raise. Another thing, you realize how trades are won and lost right? Sell high, buy low? Trading Price, if that's that they wanted to do, would net you very little.

Instead of attacking my, why not try to attack my post, would you sign Halak at the expense of Plek? The habs had trouble with goal scoring this year, you think they would be a better or worse team in that department without Plek?

Quite frankly, I am just using your statement. I am signing Plekanec first. As for the goaltenders, I don't care if they move both of them. It would appear to me that you are know saying that Halak is of superior value, because his contract may prevent the signing of Plekanac, and Price's would not. Although I disagree with the premise, if you follow that logic and had the thought to keep a goalie, why wouldn't you keep the better goalie? I am sorry you feel that I am attacking you. I AM NOT. I am just trying to get some sense of your progression of LOGIC.

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But trading Price (regardless of the return) would also free up the space to sign Plekanec. Why rule it out completely?

The reason is, it'd be silly, unless team trading for him overpays a lot. Price is due to make say what... 1mil prolly based on his play? Halak is going to seek 4m most likely based on other goalie signings around the league. Simple math, unless they dump other players they cannot re-sign both Plek and Halak, trading Prices' 1mil salary will not be enough to balance the scales. I'm not expert at the cap, but just from what I looked at numbers, someone who's more familiar may be able to say if I'm right or not.

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The reason is, it'd be silly, unless team trading for him overpays a lot. Price is due to make say what... 1mil prolly based on his play? Halak is going to seek 4m most likely based on other goalie signings around the league. Simple math, unless they dump other players they cannot re-sign both Plek and Halak, trading Prices' 1mil salary will not be enough to balance the scales. I'm not expert at the cap, but just from what I looked at numbers, someone who's more familiar may be able to say if I'm right or not.

Price has a base of $850,000 this season including a locked in signing bonus of $85,000. I can't speak too much about the bonuses that lead to his $2.2 M cap hit (aside from the fact he likely won't hit about $400,000 of his A bonuses), but his final pay at the end of the year will be a lot closer to $2 mil than to $1 mil.

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Quite frankly, I am just using your statement. I am signing Plekanec first. As for the goaltenders, I don't care if they move both of them. It would appear to me that you are know saying that Halak is of superior value, because his contract may prevent the signing of Plekanac, and Price's would not. Although I disagree with the premise, if you follow that logic and had the thought to keep a goalie, why wouldn't you keep the better goalie? I am sorry you feel that I am attacking you. I AM NOT. I am just trying to get some sense of your progression of LOGIC.

He is the better goalie now. I am in the camp that it is way too early to make final judgement on a 22 year old, let alone a goalie. People were ready to write Plek off last year, look what happened this year? I would think keeping both would make sense, but the numbers wont work. Trading Price will not free up enough cash since he makes so little, AND his play this year doesn't deserve him a huge (if any) raise. Halak played good this year so is due a raise, just can't be from Montreal unless it comes at the expense of Plek. As I mentioned before, there's no C waiting in the wings to step onto the 1st/2nd lines, where as Price can step into the goalie position.

Price has a base of $850,000 this season including a locked in signing bonus of $85,000. I can't speak too much about the bonuses that lead to his $2.2 M cap hit (aside from the fact he likely won't hit about $400,000 of his A bonuses), but his final pay at the end of the year will be a lot closer to $2 mil than to $1 mil.

Since he has not played that much, wouldn't it lead to believe he wouldn't reach the bonuses?

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Since he has not played that much, wouldn't it lead to believe he wouldn't reach the bonuses?

As I said, I can't speak too much to the B bonuses as simply put, I don't know enough about them to really comment - he has hit them before though. I did write about the A bonuses a few weeks ago which is where I pulled that $400,000 deduction from (head to the Final Thought to see the breakdown). One's locked in already and I think he hits the SV% one so some will be counting for sure.

As an aside, those unhittable amounts wouldn't be determined until after the season (anything involving medians) so it doesn't free up extra space to use now.

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Hmm so is bonuses really only for goalies? I don't hear much about players getting bonuses?

Nope, bonuses can be for skaters too. Generally, they're reserved for players on entry-level deals, over 35, or 1 year deals where the player missed a lot of time due to injury the season prior. 11 Habs currently have bonuses in their contracts, 8 of which have played for the Habs this year (making my life miserable when I try to figure out the potential cap overage).

Bonus details can be found here: http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=1474

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