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GDT: Penguins vs Canadiens


dlbalr

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The ref blew one big call yeah but the habs gave so many turnovers that they were playing without the

puck and chasing it for the entire game. Puck possession cause penalties. As soon as they had the puck

they switch lines in oposition to the Pens to taking the puck and create some plays.

All the zone were owned by the Pens.

If Price didn't stood on his head the game would have ended 6-2.

Both K's were brutal last night offensively.

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There really has got to be something done about that rule. The puck was in the net before the whistle went. At least make it a reviewable play.

I can't really fault the ref on the no-goal. The rules state that the intent to blow the whistle is the same as it being blown, so with the actual sound of the whistle taking place exactly when I saw the puck hit the back of the net I guess I have to agree with the call.

What pisses me off is that the whistle came from the ref NOT standing right over the net but rather the guy on the far side who obviously cannot see the puck with a 5 player scrum taking place in his direct line of sight. If we want to institute any rule it should be that the ref closest to the net has to be the one to blow the play dead, not the 2nd guy who is not in position because he is looking for other infractions.

Also, the Pens didn't get any of their obstruction called whereas every time the golden boy fell down it was 2min. It's like watching a Patriots game and anytime a finger moves or a hair blows and touches golden boy Brady its 15yds against the defence.

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What can you do, the Pens just have way more talent then habs current roster. I am pleasantly surprised with not much bashing of Price. Finally some people are getting it. Goaltending is the least of the teams problems. So here you go

Leading the league in times shorthanded

leading the league in fewest PP attempts

27th in the league in goals scored

#1 in the league by FAR in turnovers

top or bottom of the league depending on how you look at it in 5 on 5 goal differential

Some how they are in the playoff hunt, without there best player in Markov, with out there probable next captain Gionta for a month, defenseman dropping off like flies.

Kind of amazing they aren't the worst team in the league.

It will be nice to see a 2nd offensive line when Pouliot and Gionta return. That should help the dzone right there.

I still don't think they are done tweaking the line up and fully expect some deals to get a big centre or another top 6 forward.

I never complain about reffering but the Gomez goal was a really bad call, even the Pens announcers were on that one.

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can't really fault the ref on the no-goal. The rules state that the intent to blow the whistle is the same as it being blown, so with the actual sound of the whistle taking place exactly when I saw the puck hit the back of the net I guess I have to agree with the call.

Are you serious. That has got to be the lamest excuse as a rule. It's the intent TO BLOW THE WHISTLE THAT COUNTS??? The refs could say: "OH, I INTENDED TO BLOW THE WHISTLE 5 MINUTES AGO!!!" Talk about giving your referees a ridiculous amount of leeway...Chris Lee was an incompetent fool last night and I hope he hears about it from his bosses. I hope Bob will use his influence to make sure the NHL knows about the missed calls, and the fv.cked up goal that was disallowed!

It's all bull shit! Plain and simple. I don't see why we can't give each team one challenge? If it's good enough for the biggest and most prestigious league in the world, why can't it be for the NHL???

Edited by Habsfan
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Turnovers, pure and simple. I mean, sure, there are other elements that need to be continually addressed, but turnovers are the key. More specifically, turnovers in the defensive and neutral zones from either lax or panicked play. This stems, as I see it, from a seriously lacking transitional game. Last night after two periods (I don't know the final numbers) the turnovers were Pitt 7, Mon 21. Now, put Markov on the ice for 18 of those first 40 minutes, and I suggest a significant reduction in turnovers. Why? Because Markov doesn't turn over the puck that often, firstly. Because other players (read: defenders) play less and are therefore less prone to tired errors, secondly. And thirdly, the rest of the team plays with more confidence knowing they have one of the best defenders in the game backing them up.

This is where I hate the "injuries are no excuse" soundbyte. Sure, an injury, even to a major player, should be covered up in almost any short-term situation. But now we're closing in on the half way point in the season and we've had Markov for a grand total of a period and a bit. That's 24+ minutes a night without one of the best transitional defenders in the game today. And when he's there, he raises the game quality of all the defenders on the team. Why? Because he eats minutes they shouldn't be playing and, as mentioned, he covers errors.

Is that the only problem? Absolutely not. You can point to forwards panicking from just inside the blueline to about centre ice as well. Fairly often we see players not supporting each other and that leads to stretch passes which are invariably low percentage. But put a Gionta back in the lineup and allow the kids just a little longer to progress in their development, and those errors will creep downwards. Will we get to a point this season where we're giving up as few turnovers as, say, Pittsburgh? No. We don't have the talent for that yet. When our nominal third line is Metro, Moen and Patches, we're going to have problems. As much as Patches is improving, he's still more than prone to rookie errors and panic decisions. He's improving by leaps and bounds, particularly in the last ten games or so, but it's unrealistic to expect him to be perfect yet. As for Metro and Moen, they are what they are. Fourth line pluggers who can occasionally give you quality time on other lines when necessary. Holding a regular shift at 16+ minutes a game, though, and guys with lesser skill, like those two, will occasion repeated turnovers.

If you look at Plex, Cammi, and Andrei in recent games, even they are struggling. In the defensive zone, I think most of the team has bought in to the collapsing structure and protection of the goaltender. I believe this to be the first element in the system that Martin has brought. I'd say, by and large, this element of the system has been a success (albeit one that took a while taking hold). The next step is better puck support through the neutral zone and an improved cycle. You can see, shift to shift, how these guys are slowly getting it, but Andrei in particular likes to stick his wing and tends to forget his puck support role at times. Cammi is equally guilty, though he is more successful than Plex. One other major issue occurs when all three forwards are in a neat line across the ice. There's no depth to their play. Team sports are based on triangles of support, and all Montreal's lines tend to attack "in force" rather than "in structure" (my words - trying to best describe it). It doesn't always happen - for instance Gomez, for all his trouble this season, is routinely seen going back to a defender to offer support for a breakout play. Plex, though, tends to skate east-west or away from the defenders more often than not. This is the kind of puck support that's critical for reducing turnovers.

Finally the Habs are playing in-your-face hockey defensively, but they're still playing somewhat peripherally with the puck. And when you're kept to the outside, it's easier for the opposition to force the bad pass resulting in the turnover. If all our plays through the neutral zone are going to be based on a winger (in general) on the side boards either chipping it deep or praying for a cross-ice pass, we're going to fail more often than not. What's needed is better puck support so the only option isn't the guy on the boards, but rather him AND the centre (or opposite winger) checking back to the puck. When you do this, it also brings the defenders into the play more. Imagine this: Markov sends puck to Gomez, checking back to the puck, who tosses it to MAB at the other defending position, who in turn sends it up the middle to Markov, moving in transition to the open space that Gomez has vacated (Gomez now in Markov's position temporarily). Dynamic break-out transitional play: high-percentage passes and tight puck support. Turnovers inevitably go down.

Having said all that, it's all a process. A Canadiens fan who cannot see the improvement in the team from day one until now is looking with emotion and not with a clinical view. Rather than being bombed by the Pens, we stuck with the game and didn't look horribly out of place. Were we out-played? For sure. But it wasn't substantially, and Montreal could have come out with a better result with a little luck (and an occasional CALL - conspiracy theorists take note).

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Are you serious. That has got to be the lamest excuse as a rule. It's the intent TO BLOW THE WHISTLE THAT COUNTS??? The refs could say: "OH, I INTENDED TO BLOW THE WHISTLE 5 MINUTES AGO!!!" Talk about giving your referees a ridiculous amount of leeway...Chris Lee was an incompetent fool last night and I hope he hears about it from his bosses. I hope Bob will use his influence to make sure the NHL knows about the missed calls, and the fv.cked up goal that was disallowed!

It's all bull shit! Plain and simple. I don't see why we can't give each team one challenge? If it's good enough for the biggest and most prestigious league in the world, why can't it be for the NHL???

Lame or not that is how the rule is put into practice each and every night across the league. I'm not saying I liked the call (see my 2nd paragraph from previous post) but there isn't much you can do about it.

If you rewind the tape I would bet the ref's hand was moving towards his mouth before the puck crossed the line, hence the rationale above.

If you want to get irate about something, how about another night with 40+ shots against and barely 20 shots for. It was a miracle this was a tie game for so long.

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Are you serious. That has got to be the lamest excuse as a rule. It's the intent TO BLOW THE WHISTLE THAT COUNTS??? The refs could say: "OH, I INTENDED TO BLOW THE WHISTLE 5 MINUTES AGO!!!" Talk about giving your referees a ridiculous amount of leeway...Chris Lee was an incompetent fool last night and I hope he hears about it from his bosses. I hope Bob will use his influence to make sure the NHL knows about the missed calls, and the fv.cked up goal that was disallowed!

It's all bull shit! Plain and simple. I don't see why we can't give each team one challenge? If it's good enough for the biggest and most prestigious league in the world, why can't it be for the NHL???

If the referee is in the act of blowing the whistle as the goal is scored, then he had the intent to blow the whistle before the goal was scored. Thus, the play ended in his mind before he could blow the whistle. I like the rule.

However, I do think the ref had the play end in his mind quite early. It was a quick whistle.

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Are you serious. That has got to be the lamest excuse as a rule. It's the intent TO BLOW THE WHISTLE THAT COUNTS???

It's not like this is a new thing, don't act so surprised. Yeah, Chris Lee once again made a bad call. These type of calls aren't something you can really complain about. Every team in the league loses a couple points each season because of plays like that.

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It's not like this is a new thing, don't act so surprised. Yeah, Chris Lee once again made a bad call. These type of calls aren't something you can really complain about. Every team in the league loses a couple points each season because of plays like that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... Bad calls against the Habs have been happening at least for the 50 years I've been watching them. And this is not a home team rant. There are other teams (NFL etc.) that I root for that do not get consistent contrary refereeing as the Habs do.

I have a number of theories for this:

1 - I don't think English Canada likes Montreal or Quebec too much. Many of these refs are from English Canada.

2 - We used to be a dynasty and people usually stick for the underdog. We're not a dynasty anymore but old attitudes die hard.

When we were a stronger team, we usually could overcome this refereeing bias, but it's more noticeable now because we often can't overcome it.

All I know is that the fact that we're one of the most penalized teams in the league is an absolute joke. We're a fast skating team that shouldn't be getting more hooking and holding penalties than slower teams AND we're not a "dirty" team like many of the others.

You might as well get used to this biased refereeing because it's not gonna change. (What doesn't kill you makes you stronger?)

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I've said it before and I'll say it again... Bad calls against the Habs have been happening at least for the 50 years I've been watching them. And this is not a home team rant. There are other teams (NFL etc.) that I root for that do not get consistent contrary refereeing as the Habs do.

I have a number of theories for this:

1 - I don't think English Canada likes Montreal or Quebec too much. Many of these refs are from English Canada.

2 - We used to be a dynasty and people usually stick for the underdog. We're not a dynasty anymore but old attitudes die hard.

When we were a stronger team, we usually could overcome this refereeing bias, but it's more noticeable now because we often can't overcome it.

All I know is that the fact that we're one of the most penalized teams in the league is an absolute joke. We're a fast skating team that shouldn't be getting more hooking and holding penalties than slower teams AND we're not a "dirty" team like many of the others.

You might as well get used to this biased refereeing because it's not gonna change. (What doesn't kill you makes you stronger?)

Guess what - bad calls have been happening since the game was first referreed, and those bad calls have happened to every team. This isn't the early days of the NHL when there was bias against French Canadians. Try watch a game as a fan of the other team and see how biased you think the officiating. Every team feels like the refs are against them, not just the Canadiens.

It is not a joke that Montreal is the most penalized team in the league. As much as fans don't seem to want to admit, Montreal is not the fast skating team people want to think it is. Sure, we have some quick players. Overall, however, the team is not that fast. Nobody on our defense is that strong of a skater. And guess who 6 of the top 7 guys on the team in minor penalties taken are? Gill (only 18 games), Mara, Gorges, Spacek, Hamrlik, and O'Byrne (only 13 games). The other is Lapierre, who you would expect to take a lot of penalties.

Face it, Montreal is playing poor hockey right now. They've managed to win some games thanks to great goaltending, but they are a sloppy team. They spend two thirds of most games in their own zone and can't get it out. Their offensive strategy appears non-existent. They turn the puck over with alarming regularity. This is why the Habs are taking so many more calls than they are forcing.

Heck, the only reason the Canadiens took the lead in this game was because the refs gave us a bogus powerplay. We pushed Fedotenko into the net and they called him for delay of game and we scored on that powerplay. Where was the anti-Montreal bias on that sequence?

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Guess what - bad calls have been happening since the game was first referreed, and those bad calls have happened to every team. This isn't the early days of the NHL when there was bias against French Canadians. Try watch a game as a fan of the other team and see how biased you think the officiating. Every team feels like the refs are against them, not just the Canadiens.

So then why don't I notice the same bias for the NFL teams I root for? Why didn't I notice it against the Expos when they were here? I mean, I'm a "hometown fan" for those teams too, yet I find the refereeing by and large fair. Sure, some games are bad, but not consistently bad.

You're looking at the world through rose-coloured glasses if you don't think referees have bias and English Canada has a bias against Quebec. Look at what came out about the NBA refs. (In case you missed it on "60 Minutes," the former NBA ref admitted that refs dislike certain players and teams, and call games accordingly). You think NHL refs are above all that?!!

I'm an Anglophone of Italian descent raised in Montreal. I know bias when I see it (and not just in hockey). It's very subtle and it's not from everyone, but it's there. You think that comment from Avery a few years ago was not representative of a more general attitude? Think again. The others are just smarter than Avery and keep their mouths shut. (Don Cherry can barely suppress his bias against Quebec.)

I have a replay of the Als Grey Cup win. I've watched the game twice. I wish you could listen to the play-by-play announcer when Sask scored a TD, as opposed to when the Als did. This is just one example. I could write a novel!

I like to think I try to be objective when it comes to refereeing. My Leaf fan friends are surprised when I'll admit a bad call against them. But they also agree that in games involving those 2 teams, we get the short end of the refereeing stick. (One of them actually *chortles* at some of the injustice. He finds it funny.)

Like I've said... I've learned to live with it. There's no point getting upset over something you can't do anything about.

(BTW... on that quick whistle - 2nd time this year a Mtl team has lost on a phantom quick whistle. If you follow the CFL, you'll remember the BC game. I wonder how many other Canadian cities have had *2* games decided by an inexplicable phantom quick whistle in the same year?!)

Edited by jackp
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(BTW... on that quick whistle - 2nd time this year a Mtl team has lost on a phantom quick whistle. If you follow the CFL, you'll remember the BC game. I wonder how many other Canadian cities have had *2* games decided by an inexplicable phantom quick whistle in the same year?!)

Phantom quick whistles happen to every team. It's already happened to Columbus a couple times this year as well. I'm a big Notre Dame fan and it certainly feels at times that refs are biased against them. For example, I remember ND getting called for an illegal push against USC years ago, on the same type of play Reggie Bush used to be ND in 2005. I don't, however, then accuse the refs of being biased against Catholics. My Dad, on the other hand, is a different story, haha.

So then why don't I notice the same bias for the NFL teams I root for? Why didn't I notice it against the Expos when they were here? I mean, I'm a "hometown fan" for those teams too, yet I find the refereeing by and large fair. Sure, some games are bad, but not consistently bad.

Most of the games I get a chance to watch are via the other team's announcers. Game in and game out, by listening to them, you'd think the refs are on Montreal's side every game. So far this year, the calls haven't gone Montreal's way. This is just an anomaly. Where was this bias the last few years when Montreal can called for just as many penalties as it drew? Colin brought up refs not wanting to show any favor toward the Centennial team, but if that were the case, why wasn't this happening last season? Why would refs suddenly decide to be biased against us this particular season?

You're looking at the world through rose-coloured glasses if you don't think referees have bias and English Canada has a bias against Quebec. Look at what came out about the NBA refs. (In case you missed it on "60 Minutes," the former NBA ref admitted that refs dislike certain players and teams, and call games accordingly). You think NHL refs are above all that?!!

I do believe the NBA is a much more corrupt organization than the NHL. They've responded to the whole Donaghy controversy by coming out in support of legalized betting on NBA games. I'm not naive enough to think there aren't certain refs who let their personal feelings affect the way they referee. But what you're talking about is a near league-wide bias against us. That's a ridiculous notion.

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I do believe the NBA is a much more corrupt organization than the NHL. They've responded to the whole Donaghy controversy by coming out in support of legalized betting on NBA games. I'm not naive enough to think there aren't certain refs who let their personal feelings affect the way they referee. But what you're talking about is a near league-wide bias against us. That's a ridiculous notion.

Boy, that's funny. "The NBA is more corrupt than the NHL." And just on what do you base this observation? You must have some inside information that the rest of us don't.

As far as a league-wide bias is concerned... In a pure, sterile world, that would be ridiculous. In the real *Canadian* world, where most refs come from English Canada, it's not ridiculous at all. I just wish some of the Quebecois members here would speak up. I'm not saying anything that they don't already know...

Finally, you never really dealt with why I don't see consistent bias for other teams I follow. You just made some disingenuous comment about Catholics. If this were the 17th century, that might have been true BTW.

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LOL... I get it. Throw Lapierre into a lake. If he floats, trade him. If he sinks, well...

:rolleyes:

If he sinks, at least we've fed the goldfish for a few months. Win win situation!

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