Trading PRICE vs Trading HALAK

[Colin]

Well, I think thing's have changed. Maybe he thinks he now has a chance to win the starting job. Who knows? But don't you feel that things have changed now as far as the goaltending situation is concerned? I no longer feel that the team is ready to hand the job to Price strictly on expectation. I feel that management is now waiting to see how things turn out between the two of them, and if Price doesn't work out, he might be the one to go instead of Halak. For the first time since they traded Huet away, I think Price has to earn the job. It's no longer his by divine right. And that's the way it should be.

Yes, things have changed, absolutely. There's competition which drives each goalie to be better. Do I feel that's necessarily changed the overall outlook? Maybe, but honestly I'm doubtful. That Halak is getting lots of starts seems to me more a case of 1. showcasing his talents, and 2. putting the pressure on Price. I still believe Price is the Anointed One, for better or for worse. My impression is that the organization believes he has the higher ceiling; only time will tell for sure, of course.

Regardless, my number one feeling with this situation is very positive. While both goalies have their weaknesses, I feel that both still have a long way to go up. I fully believe both capable of being a number one - my opinion is that Price has the higher upside, but debating personal feelings is, at this point, a waste of bandwidth. My positiveness in this situation stems from the fact that, for the first time in a very, very, very long time, Montreal is actually dealing with a wonderful problem and should they go the trade route, will be dealing from a position of strength rather than having to beg/overpay to get what they want. That Halak ramped up his game right after demanding the trade stemmed any negative offers Bob may have received, IMO, and instead has driven his price (oh the pun of it all) up substantially. If Price had the perceived higher value across the league before the trade request, that gap has diminished significantly.

In effect, no matter who gets traded (assuming that's still the goal), Montreal will now probably receive a very solid return, where a mere 10 games ago, Halak may have only netted that 2nd round pick everyone was fearing. I see no reason why either goalie can't net a puck-moving top-four defender or a top-six forward (or get packaged with another asset for a larger upgrade). While the goaltending market is "flooded" it's not necessarily flooded with top-tier prospects, in which group Price and Halak surely belong.

For a string of 10 games, Price was excellent, only losing concentration towards the end of that run. Fatigue? Laziness? Cockiness? Who knows, but I suspect he's learned from it. Now Halak is on a phenominal run, though I see signs of him faltering just slightly (fatigue again?). The point is, we are in an enviable position and my opinion is that debating the goalie situation has been rendered largely moot. To me, it doesn't matter who we go with, we'll be fine. If we keep both, we'll be fine. Eventually one will have to go, and the way they're both playing, we're going to increase our talent pool if/when one is traded and, again, be fine.

[JoeLassister]

The one and only fact that Price is able to see the play in front of him when a 6'2'' guy is there makes him the future #1.

Price will eventually stop to try pucks over the net with his glove. Halak won't grow 3''...

[ForumGhost]

Halak was asking to be traded when he sat for 10 games in a row. He probably feels differently now (as long as he continues to be treated fairly).

He wasn't being treated fairly? News to me.

[rafikz]

The one and only fact that Price is able to see the play in front of him when a 6'2'' guy is there makes him the future #1.

Price will eventually stop to try pucks over the net with his glove. Halak won't grow 3''...

Yeah his 6'2 frame really did wonder on those softie shots in NJ or vs Pittsburgh

[Fanpuck33]

He wasn't being treated fairly? News to me.

It depends on how how you're expecting Halak to be treated. If you're expecting him to be treated as the clear #2 backup, then he's been treated pretty well. If you're expecting the goalies to be treated equally, then not so much. For example, at the beginning of that stretch in November when Price started all but one game, he started out by giving up 5 goals on November 3rd. He really turned it around after that and had a great month, but had Halak given up 5 goals, he wouldn't have been back out there the next game.

[JoeLassister]

Yeah his 6'2 frame really did wonder on those softie shots in NJ or vs Pittsburgh

Not on softies, but look how it wonders when traffic happens. Looks like Halak is goaling by the sound of the game while Price is able to look over the guy in front and get in position.

[Habsfan]

I think Halak will be traded, but it won't be before another 4 to 6 weeks. Let his value continue to climb, and we should get something good in return. Not another goalie. Desjardins or Sanford can do the job!

Edited December 30, 2009 by Habsfan

[ForumGhost]

It depends on how how you're expecting Halak to be treated. If you're expecting him to be treated as the clear #2 backup, then he's been treated pretty well. If you're expecting the goalies to be treated equally, then not so much. For example, at the beginning of that stretch in November when Price started all but one game, he started out by giving up 5 goals on November 3rd. He really turned it around after that and had a great month, but had Halak given up 5 goals, he wouldn't have been back out there the next game.

The stretch which I believe he was referring to was the one were Price played incredibly.

Both goalies have been treated very fairly.

[Fanpuck33]

The stretch which I believe he was referring to was the one were Price played incredibly.

Both goalies have been treated very fairly.

I'm talking about the same stretch... Price started out that stretch in November by giving up 5 goals. Hindsight shows that it was the right decision to send him back out there, as he played great for the rest of the month. At the time, however, it seemed much more fair to start Halak after that poor game by Price.

As I've already tried to say, fairness all depends on what role you think the goals have, as spelled out by my post. If you see Halak as Price's backup, then he's been treated more than fairly and given chances beyond that of a typical backup. If you see Halak and Price as equals, he hasn't been treated quite as fairly. This isn't about my view of the goalies, it's an objective analysis.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Well, Halak has certainly been unfairly treated in his time in Montreal. Most egregious was his being sent down in 08 after heroically minding the fort over the stretch drive in 2007. Then there has been his sustained riding of the pine while Price flailed around. In terms of pure NHL performance, Halak has made just as much a case for himself as Price, and yet has repeatedly been treated as an afterthought by the organization.

This pattern has changed this year, though. Martin is clearly interested in playing the goalie he feels gives him the best chance of winning any given game, period; and to his credit Bob Gainey appears fully supportive of this approach, despite having invested so much in Price. So the unfairness seems to be a thing of the past.

Colin is right that this is a great situation. Gainey has a real asset on his hands here that he should be able to turn into a top-4 defenceman or a top-6 forward. This is how it was supposed to work with the Gainey regime: develop excellent young players and then deal selected ones away from a position of strength. A shame it only worked out in G.

[simonus]

I'm talking about the same stretch... Price started out that stretch in November by giving up 5 goals. Hindsight shows that it was the right decision to send him back out there, as he played great for the rest of the month. At the time, however, it seemed much more fair to start Halak after that poor game by Price.

As I've already tried to say, fairness all depends on what role you think the goals have, as spelled out by my post. If you see Halak as Price's backup, then he's been treated more than fairly and given chances beyond that of a typical backup. If you see Halak and Price as equals, he hasn't been treated quite as fairly. This isn't about my view of the goalies, it's an objective analysis.

To be fair, Halak gave up 6 goals coming in rusty against the Sabres on December 3, but was able to get back in 3 games later even though Price had played very well in the intervening games.

[Colin]

Colin is right that this is a great situation. Gainey has a real asset on his hands here that he should be able to turn into a top-4 defenceman or a top-6 forward. This is how it was supposed to work with the Gainey regime: develop excellent young players and then deal selected ones away from a position of strength. A shame it only worked out in G.

Well, so far. Let's not throw the rest of the prospects completely under the bus. There's Carle, Weber and Subban in the minors who all may develop into good puck-moving defenders. We surely won't be keeping all three, since they're largely the same player type, so as long as they continue on an upward curve, we'll have more 'potential' to deal for 'now' on defense. Offensively we seem a little thinner in terms of depth, but there are potential candidates that could work to our advantage as well - and that's not even counting a guy like Perezhogin who may give us added worth when the KHL starts offering $500 contracts instead of what they're offering now. Perhaps not likely, but not out of the realm considering the financial state of the world these days.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Well, so far. Let's not throw the rest of the prospects completely under the bus. There's Carle, Weber and Subban in the minors who all may develop into good puck-moving defenders. We surely won't be keeping all three, since they're largely the same player type, so as long as they continue on an upward curve, we'll have more 'potential' to deal for 'now' on defense. Offensively we seem a little thinner in terms of depth, but there are potential candidates that could work to our advantage as well - and that's not even counting a guy like Perezhogin who may give us added worth when the KHL starts offering $500 contracts instead of what they're offering now. Perhaps not likely, but not out of the realm considering the financial state of the world these days.

I'm not condemning the new crop of up-and-comers; all I'm saying is that it didn't work out very well for the first Gainey rebuild. He wasn't able to turn Hainsey, Beauchemin, Perezhogin, Ribeiro, Komisarek, Souray, Higgins, Plekanec (so far) or, come to think of it, ANY of those players/prospects into elite talent, except Balej, whom he miraculously transmuted into Kovalev. None of those guys developed into consistently elite players for us and none of them other than Balej were turned into elite players via trade. That's not how it was supposed to go (which is why he had to go out and spent $100 million last summer on UFAs to fill the talent void). We were supposed to have a great crop of young talent from which to build a winner.

(I know he turned Higgins into Gomez, but he had to package Higgins with a high-end defensive prospect, so I'm not sure that's an ideal outcome).

Oh well. Second time's a charm.

[Fanpuck33]

To be fair, Halak gave up 6 goals coming in rusty against the Sabres on December 3, but was able to get back in 3 games later even though Price had played very well in the intervening games.

Halak has yet to start back-to-backs, with Price doing it three times. So yes, that was surprising to see Halak get that start. Personally, I don't think either goalie needs to be starting back-to-backs in our situation.

[HabsWEST]

The Tandem of Price and Halak will help this team make the playoffs, one without the other will make this team less competitive, Reminds me of the MOOG/FUHR days in Edmonton....Well as Goaltending pairs anyways....

Eventually one has to go,

Speaking of the Oilers,

Wouldnt it be great if one can turn one of these assets ( Price or Halak) for EBERLE and/or a First Round pick for a shot at Taylor Hall, or Cam Fowler, or T.Seguin...!!!

Imagine EBERLE and HALL....could we swing that with PRICE or HALAK and something?

Now that I would like to see happen...

Dump a contract plus one of the Goalies ( not mentioning whom here, ...whomever gets us the assets!!) for an EBERLE and First rounder... as Khaboulin is probably out for the year...Oilers need a young goalie, and being out west and all...

Regardless, As long as PRICE/HALAK keep winning....the better!!

Cheers

Edited January 8, 2010 by HabsWEST

[Colin]

The Tandem of Price and Halak will help this team make the playoffs, one without the other will make this team less competitive, Reminds me of the MOOG/FUHR days in Edmonton....Well as Goaltending pairs anyways....

Eventually one has to go,

Speaking of the Oilers,

Wouldnt it be great if one can turn one of these assets ( Price or Halak) for EBERLE and/or a First Round pick for a shot at Taylor Hall, or Cam Fowler, or T.Seguin...!!!

Imagine EBERLE and HALL....could we swing that with PRICE or HALAK and something?

Now that I would like to see happen...

Dump a contract plus one of the Goalies ( not mentioning whom here, ...whomever gets us the assets!!) for an EBERLE and First rounder... as Khaboulin is probably out for the year...Oilers need a young goalie, and being out west and all...

Regardless, As long as PRICE/HALAK keep winning....the better!!

Cheers

Eberle? 10 years from now he's going to be known for his exploits in the last two WJC's and not for any NHL stuff. Perimeter player - very small and soft.

[HabsWEST]

Eberle? 10 years from now he's going to be known for his exploits in the last two WJC's and not for any NHL stuff. Perimeter player - very small and soft.

Eberle and a FIRST rounder.... I agree to an extent that EBERLE may only turn out to be a 3rd liner in the NHL at best...But Taylor Hall, or A Cam Fowler or one of the Europeans ( a top 5 pick this year) can potentially be the top 6 player....

Anyways this topic is about maximizing returns, and about PRICE and HALAK, how they are helping the team get to the playoffs, one without the other, we would be in trouble!!

Cheers

[Colin]

Eberle and a FIRST rounder.... I agree to an extent that EBERLE may only turn out to be a 3rd liner in the NHL at best...But Taylor Hall, or A Cam Fowler or one of the Europeans ( a top 5 pick this year) can potentially be the top 6 player....

Anyways this topic is about maximizing returns, and about PRICE and HALAK, how they are helping the team get to the playoffs, one without the other, we would be in trouble!!

Cheers

Well, I won't deny that it's an interesting thought, but I don't think it's really feasible. If one or the other gets traded, I suspect we get back a roster player who can provide an impact now.

[Habsfan]

Although I have been somewhat disappointed with Price's play lately, I still think we need to be patient with him. How many years did it take for M-A Fleury to become a legit star goalie in the league???4-5 years?

Price is in his 3rd year, and he doesn't have superstars like Crosby and malkin scoring 6 goals per night!

Patience is needed.

[HabsWEST]

Well, I won't deny that it's an interesting thought, but I don't think it's really feasible. If one or the other gets traded, I suspect we get back a roster player who can provide an impact now.

Agreed, but may become issue of salary cap, and getting a prospect/ first rounder, top 5 potentially...solves that issue, anyone we get back adds to the salary cap problem and diminshes our chance of signing and retaining someone like Plekanec.... a trade with one of the goalies plus a salary dump may prove very useful now and in future...for ONE and or Two BLUECHIP propects that keep the salary lower and if they become an immediate player within 2 years it does free up cap space now and future..

Something to think about, and a point Gainey has to consider in terms of Maximizing current assets, whether it be to maximize returns from one of the Goalies and free up space for a current player to be retained ( Plekanec )

[Colin]

Agreed, but may become issue of salary cap, and getting a prospect/ first rounder, top 5 potentially...solves that issue, anyone we get back adds to the salary cap problem and diminshes our chance of signing and retaining someone like Plekanec.... a trade with one of the goalies plus a salary dump may prove very useful now and in future...for ONE and or Two BLUECHIP propects that keep the salary lower and if they become an immediate player within 2 years it does free up cap space now and future..

Something to think about, and a point Gainey has to consider in terms of Maximizing current assets, whether it be to maximize returns from one of the Goalies and free up space for a current player to be retained ( Plekanec )

We'll never get a top-5 prospect for Halak. Or Price for that matter.

[BlueKross]

We'll never get a top-5 prospect for Halak. Or Price for that matter.

Somebody has a very optimistic view of the value of our goaltenders. I doubt if you would get more than a middle to late pick for Price at this time. More of a concern to me, is how they play their goaltenders. Halak was MVP for month of Dec. and has just come off a shout-out. You can bet that Price will be in net against NJ because of his PI in the sky potential. Why not just play the hot goalie?

Let the on ice performance determine who plays.

[BCHabnut]

Somebody has a very optimistic view of the value of our goaltenders. I doubt if you would get more than a middle to late pick for Price at this time. More of a concern to me, is how they play their goaltenders. Halak was MVP for month of Dec. and has just come off a shout-out. You can bet that Price will be in net against NJ because of his PI in the sky potential. Why not just play the hot goalie?

Let the on ice performance determine who plays.

Halak will get the start. Martin has been playing the hot hand all year. He gave Price a little more leeway because he was the starter, but Halak has gotten consistent starts all year/

[Prime Minister Koivu]

Price and Halak December stats and commentary written by Wamsley here.

Eye opening and outstanding. This will make you think.

[JCPetit]

Price and Halak December stats and commentary written by Wamsley here.

Eye opening and outstanding. This will make you think.

Great piece of work. Outstanding, really. It makes the point very clearly: we have two very good young goalies with our team. I still believe that Price has the best future (and the stats don't deny that), but Halak has done a great job for us, no doubt about that. Too bad one will have to go.