Is PK Subban ready?

[BTH]

my oh my, take the baby gloves us, PK was rated the #1 D in the WJC last year, he is dominating the AHL as a rookie, he dominated Junior last year, he is not a 17 yr old or 18yr old or 19yr old, he is 20 going on 21. At some point in time, you need to put the kid through the test and see how he responds, not when the team is out of it and are playing for jobs in MTL or elsewhere next year, but while they are still in playoff contention.

Do you honestly think he could do any worse in his own zone than the current lineup, put him out there with Markov so he is can be protected somewhat, give him respectable minutes, put him in all situations and see how he responds. Watching Hall Gill and MAB (when he's on D) in their own zone is painful and disgusting, I can only imagine how great the Habs forwards look when practicing against this teams D, that could be their issue, they dominate the Habs D and get a false sense of ability and it shows up in the games.

Subban hasn't played a full season in the AHL yet. Meaning he just made the big jump from Juniors to the AHL (and handled it very well). It would be too much too soon to make him make a second huge jump.

Virtually nobody should be going through the AHL that fast. If he couldn't crack the NHL straight out of Juniors (like Crosby and other star prospects can) then his game probably needs at least a year of work at the AHL level. Sometimes players like Sergei Kostitsyn get called up and perform really well for 10 games, but it rarely lasts and the players wind up regressing the following year.

He might do fine as an emergency call up but we have other guys on the depth chart. With Carle out for the year, Subban might get a brief chance if the NHL team gets hit with a few injuries, and I wouldn't mind that, but he isn't good enough to routinely play in the NHL.

[ForumGhost]

by the way the habs biggest problem with developing youngsters is there inability to use them properly. example 1: scring winger latendresse/ pacioretty/sergei kostitsyn used primarily on a 3/4th line less then 10 min a night.

3 examples of why you send these kids down if there is no room on your top lines...

That's a smashing good idea. Let's give the minutes of Cams, Gionta, Gomez, Andrei, etc. over to these guys instead.

If you're saying they should have sent these guys down if there is no room, wouldn't that completely negate your argument of bringing up Subban in the first place?

Edited January 30, 2010 by ForumGhost

[Colin]

That's a smashing good idea.

How very British of you! Monty Python fan?

[Fanpuck33]

That's a smashing good idea. Let's give the minutes of Cams, Gionta, Gomez, Andrei, etc. over to these guys instead.

If you're saying they should have sent these guys down if there is no room, wouldn't that completely negate your argument of bringing up Subban in the first place?

Who is saying play the youngsters instead of those guys? How many times have we seen the likes of Moen, Lapierre, and Metropolit playing with those guys? Instead, they seem to insist on playing guys outside of their normal roles. If a guy like Pacioretty is not performing on a scoring line, then send him down to play on Hamilton's scoring lines. Playing him on the 3rd and 4th lines is doing nothing to help his confidence.

If they are going to play Subban in the correct situation, then it doesn't negate his argument at all. If they call him up and ask him to be a purely defensive defenseman and only play him at even strength and the PK, then it would be stupid to call him up. If, on the other hand, they were to call him up and ask him to play his own role, that of offensive defensemen, then it would be good to give him a shot.

This is exactly the type of thing that Hitch did to run Filatov out of town. Filatov is a offensive player who is on the small side and has a body that is not cut out for a defensive, checking role that Hitch keep putting him in. Instead of putting him in a situation to utilize Filatov's strengths, he continually put him in a role that further exposed his weaknesses. If you want to get the best out of a player, put him in a suitable role and let him build his confidence as you begin to work on his weaknesses. Don't put him in a role that does nothing but expose his weaknesses. All that does is kill confidence and make it impossible for a kid to earn his way into a more suitable role.

Edited January 30, 2010 by Fanpuck33

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I don't think there's any fan agreement on how to develop young players. In fact, there may not BE any universal formula for doing it.

1. Some think we should hurl players into the NHL once they're 'ready.' I give you Ribeiro, Price, and Latendresse. This doesn't necessarily 'ruin' players, but what it does tend to do is sour the organization and fanbase on them, and sour them on the organization, due to fatigue with enduring the inevitable growth pains. Then again, we see this model work in some cases. See Michael Ryder.

2. Some think the way to develop top-line players is by giving them top-line minutes. This is 'the Habs are ruining Pacioretty' argument. But what this means in practice is giving top minutes to players who haven't earned it by performance. See Carey Price, again. (I wonder if the people supporting this argument also agree that Bob handled Price correctly? Because this *is* the formula Gainey has used with him). I also remember Saku Koivu being put on a 3rd line with Turner Stevenson for an entire season. Didn't hurt his development one bit. Plus it gave us a killer third line.

3. Some think the way is to follow the Koivu model: put the guy on the bottom-6 until he makes the case for top-6 minutes based on performance. I'm partial to this model myself. It should provide a player with an apprenticeship in becoming an all-around player. Then again, it probably cost us at least one prospect I thought highly of (Perezhogin). You can also look at Latendresse's explosion in Minny as proof that (2) is better than (3).

The bottom line is that this isn't a science. You can rant about the Habs 'ruining' player X or Y, and act as though it's 'obvious' what the Habs should be doing with young players, but for every case there is a counter-example.

Edited January 30, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Fanpuck33]

2. Some think the way to develop top-line players is by giving them top-line minutes. This is 'the Habs are ruining Pacioretty' argument. But what this means in practice is giving top minutes to players who haven't earned it by performance. See Carey Price, again. (I wonder if the people supporting this argument also agree that Bob handled Price correctly? Because this *is* the formula Gainey has used with him). I also remember Saku Koivu being put on a 3rd line with Turner Stevenson for an entire season. Didn't hurt his development one bit. Plus it gave us a killer third line.

Goalies and position players are two totally different situations. Giving a goalie the starting job before he's earned it is completely different than putting a rookie on a scoring line. If a goalie isn't up to the task, the entire team suffers. If a forward or defenseman isn't up to the task, only one line/pairing suffers. Asking a young goalie to serve as a backup is nothing like playing a position player in an unfamiliar role. Sure, the goalie is used to starting more often, but his approach to the game doesn't change - his job is still to go in there and stop pucks. That's a lot different than asking an offensive player to concentrate solely on checking and defense.

Even with this system, players should need to earn their ice time, for sure. But instead of earning it with minimal minutes at the NHL level in a role not related to the role they want, let them earn it at the AHL level by becoming consistently good in the role they are built for. Put the guy in a successful role while he works on his weaknesses, instead of focusing solely on weaknesses. Also, does it make sense to make a player learn to play defense and check at the NHL level? If it's not a role they ever played in the AHL, what sense does it make to have them learn a new role at the highest level?

A big problem with this method of developing players is that coaches tend to keep guys in the "learning" role for too long. Latendresse was playing very good hockey last season teamed up with Lapierre and Kostopoulos. Many nights, that was our best line. I certainly think he had earned a legitimate shot at a top line this season. But how many games did he play in an offensive role with 15+ minutes of ice time?

Edited January 30, 2010 by Fanpuck33

[saskhab]

Plekanec spent his first NHL season (at age 23 after 3 seasons in Hamilton with only a couple games as a callup) as Montreal's 4th line centre, where he surpassed Radek Bonk by season's end to be the 3rd centre. The next year, he was promoted to #2 centre when they traded Ribeiro. He failed initially, but by the end of the year had assumed that role. The next year, he was our top scoring centre. Then he regressed last year before blossoming this year.

There's no method that's right. You can't complain that guys are or aren't being rushed, because we simply don't know for the most part.

I am for a graduation process: once a player succeeds in a top role in the AHL for a full year or so, give him a new challenge at the NHL level. Once he succeeds in that role, open a new spot for him. I don't think Plekanec is the model for everyone, but it's a decent model: most prospects aren't high end guys, they are guys like Plekanec who have good potential and largely unknown NHL upside. Oddly enough, a guy like Francois Beauchemin kind of mirrored Plekanec in that development curve, but he had to go through the "challenging" phase in different NHL cities.

Pacioretty i think hasn't worked because he was assumed to be a high end prospect for some reason, almost like a forward version of Carey Price. He went from a Junior A player to a NHL player in a year and a half. That's too quick. He probably shouldn't have turned pro after one year of NCAA (and I hope Leblanc stays at the NCAA for two years at least). He most definitely shouldn't have gone to the NHL within half a year of AHL action. I think overall he's behind where he should be as a result.

[nyckdkool]

hmm, to all the idiots that say keep him in the AHL, don't want to stunt his development, what do you say about SK playing up last year, what a 6th-7th rd draft pick getting quality minutes. your argument makes no sense, unlike most players mentioned that you think the Habs rushed, none have dominated like PK the kid is not a teenager, he's not fresh out of last yrs draft, he's 20 going on 21. the issue is not how the habs develop players it's their inability to draft quality NHL prospects.

[Fanpuck33]

hmm, to all the idiots that say keep him in the AHL...

Great argument! You're right and everyone else is an idiot! How could I have been so blind!

[saskhab]

hmm, to all the idiots that say keep him in the AHL, don't want to stunt his development, what do you say about SK playing up last year, what a 6th-7th rd draft pick getting quality minutes. your argument makes no sense, unlike most players mentioned that you think the Habs rushed, none have dominated like PK the kid is not a teenager, he's not fresh out of last yrs draft, he's 20 going on 21. the issue is not how the habs develop players it's their inability to draft quality NHL prospects.

Sergei is actually the exact comparable one could look at for PK. He dominated junior, started with a strong performance in the AHL and got called up and made the team. He did well initially, but there was a lot of bad habits that were overlooked with him making it so quickly and eventually they had to demote him twice and he's still not producing that well over two years after his callup.

So if that's the example you want to go by...

[Habsy]

hmm, to all the idiots that say keep him in the AHL, don't want to stunt his development, what do you say about SK playing up last year, what a 6th-7th rd draft pick getting quality minutes. your argument makes no sense, unlike most players mentioned that you think the Habs rushed, none have dominated like PK the kid is not a teenager, he's not fresh out of last yrs draft, he's 20 going on 21. the issue is not how the habs develop players it's their inability to draft quality NHL prospects.

You just lost everybody, when you call people idiots. You're officially the worst poster here. You didn't feel a little odd, as you typed the word idiots? I literally cringed as I read it. Nice debating skills you've got. After the word idiots, I didn't even read the rest of your insightful plan.

[rafikz]

Crap

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

That's a smashing good idea. Let's give the minutes of Cams, Gionta, Gomez, Andrei, etc. over to these guys instead.

If you're saying they should have sent these guys down if there is no room, wouldn't that completely negate your argument of bringing up Subban in the first place?

clearly that's not what i meant. i meant you draft a top line player and he should play for your team when a position opened. example duschene, kane toews, gagner, statsny etc

if montreal has cammallerri, gionta, gomez plex, andrei k and pouliot then clearly there was no room for pacioretty or sergei .. meaning they should be sent down OR we should of created a third scoring line and made our 4th line the energy/ checking line

subban was good enough to make the nhl this year but gainey had already gone out and filled the D-line up with what"he" thought was quality vets to "shore" up the D this year in order for "our goalies" to take a step FORWARD

montreal made the mistake this year by signing all thes high priced depth defencemen

habs best d lineup!!!

markov-gorges

hammer- subban

gill- spacek

[ForumGhost]

You just lost everybody, when you call people idiots. You're officially the worst poster here. You didn't feel a little odd, as you typed the word idiots? I literally cringed as I read it. Nice debating skills you've got. After the word idiots, I didn't even read the rest of your insightful plan.

After reading his other posts, I agree. Not only is he childish (he's probably just a kid), but he doesn't know a whole lot about hockey either.

[Psycing]

I think the Habs are doing the right thing by keeping Subban down in the AHL to let him really develop without the interruption of coming to the NHL, getting high on himself, hitting a slump, and then never recovering. Let him dominate down in the A and really build his confidence, and his game. He's doing really well down there, but there will be bad games, strings of bad games, that he'll need to learn to accept and play through.

I'm definitely excited to see him up in the NHL, but he'll be that much the better player if they do the right thing with his development - a la Tomas Plekanec.

[IN THE HEARTS OF MEN]

hesubban is an NHLer that i know for sure

[JCPetit]

I have been following the Habs for more than 40 years. I have seen the emergence of JC Tremblay, Jacques Laperriere, Serge Savard, Guy Lapointe, Larry Robinson, Rod Langway, Chris Chelios, Peter Svoboda, Matthieu Schneider, Eric Desjardins and Andrei Markov. I probably forget a few good ones, but not much. As you can see, I have seen quite a few good defensemen playing for the Canadiens over the year... But believe me, P.K. Subban is something. He has shown me more against the Flyers than the rest of the defensive squad in the whole year (except Markov, of course).

P.K. will be more useful to the Habs at Mtl than in Hamilton. He will learn more and faster with the big team than with the Bulldogs. Don't you see it? He is a horse. Very strong legs and upper body. Hell! he holds his stick with one hand and keeps the other player away from the puck with his other arm; he makes it look easy against bonafide NHLer!

He has got speed, imagination and incredible confidence. Some will say that it is boldness, I don't think so. IMO, this guy is the next star on this team. He loves to play and wants to contribute. Please, let him play in Mtl. We don't have too much to celebrate this year, but at least we have got a great prospect. Let him show us what he can do. He will make his mistakes, of course, but he will also make us dream about better days.

Yes, P.K. is ready. Don't move him back to Hamilton.

Edited February 14, 2010 by JCPetit

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I have been following the Habs for more than 40 years. I have seen the emergence of JC Tremblay, Jacques Laperriere, Serge Savard, Guy Lapointe, Larry Robinson, Rod Langway, Chris Chelios, Peter Svoboda, Matthieu Schneider, Eric Desjardins and Andrei Markov. I probably forget a few good ones, but not much. As you can see, I have seen quite a few good defensemen playing for the Canadiens over the year... But believe me, P.K. Subban is something. He has shown me more against the Flyers than the rest of the defensive squad in the whole year (except Markov, of course).

P.K. will be more useful to the Habs at Mtl than in Hamilton. He will learn more and faster with the big team than with the Bulldogs. Don't you see it? He is a horse. Very strong legs and upper body. Hell! he holds his stick with one hand and keeps the other player away from the puck with his other arm; he makes it look easy against bonafide NHLer!

He has got speed, imagination and incredible confidence. Some will say that it is boldness, I don't think so. IMO, this guy is the next star on this team. He loves to play and wants to contribute. Please, let him play in Mtl. We don't have too much to celebrate this year, but at least we have got a great prospect. Let him show us what he can do. He will make his mistakes, of course, but he will also make us dream about better days.

Yes, P.K. is ready. Don't move him back to Hamilton.

I respect your opinion. But what happens when he hits a slump, and his defensive miscues cease to be balanced by his offensive contributions? If past experience is any guide, he will be immediately tarred and feathered by the exact same people who are now anointing his feet with oil. That can destroy a prospect. Look at Price, universally agreed to be the Sidney Crosby of goalies, a veritable prodigy. Now people want to run him out of town. Look at O'Byrne, literally demonzied by Montrealers for being a kid learning the game. Look at Latendresse, beloved at first, loathed on his departure. We should proceed with extreme caution with young P.K. in my opinion.

Edited February 14, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[Colin]

Probably we should trade Subban to another team for three or four years, then re-acquire him when he's all growed up.

[JCPetit]

I respect your opinion. But what happens when he hits a slump, and his defensive miscues cease to be balanced by his offensive contributions? If past experience is any guide, he will be immediately tarred and feathered by the exact same people who are now anointing his feet with oil. That can destroy a prospect. Look at Price, universally agreed to be the Sidney Crosby of goalies, a veritable prodigy. Now people want to run him out of town. Look at O'Byrne, literally demonzied by Montrealers for being a kid learning the game. Look at Latendresse, beloved at first, loathed on his departure. We should proceed with extreme caution with young P.K. in my opinion.

If we wait till he is matured to a full-grown man, we as well wait for another four years. My point is that he is ready for the next level. Let him play with the Habs, and live with his ups and downs. We don't have much choice IMO; he is already better than three defensemen already in the lineup.

[redondo]

JCPetit, I think you're right as far as where PK is skillwise, he has been a joy to watch, but there are unfortunately other, off-ice factors here as well.

If I remember Latendresse's case correctly, bringing him up too early not only (eventually) led to him not being able to be sent down to the AHL due to having played too many games and become waiver-eligible, but also accelerating his free agent eligibility by a year. I'm not sure what the number of games is that would change PK's status (sorry if someone posted this already) but I'd hate to risk losing a potential monster of a defenceman to free agency a year ahead of schedule by having him play out a season in which we have no chance of competing for the Cup. I will continue to support this team, but this bunch, with this coach, is going nowhere this year, with or without PK Subban.

Nobody is saying hold him back for four years, but letting him finish out the season in the AHL and then hopefully making the team out of camp next year is not really that huge of a delay....and it feels like a right thing to do for his development.

[dlbalr]

If I remember Latendresse's case correctly, bringing him up too early not only (eventually) led to him not being able to be sent down to the AHL due to having played too many games and become waiver-eligible, but also accelerating his free agent eligibility by a year. I'm not sure what the number of games is that would change PK's status (sorry if someone posted this already) but I'd hate to risk losing a potential monster of a defenceman to free agency a year ahead of schedule by having him play out a season in which we have no chance of competing for the Cup. I will continue to support this team, but this bunch, with this coach, is going nowhere this year, with or without PK Subban.

The only issue for GP with Subban will be his waiver status - 160 GP or 3 years, whichever comes first. For UFA status, it's 27 years old or 7 years of NHL experience. Latendresse started at 19 which means he'll be a UFA at 26, Subban started at 20 so either way, he'll be a UFA at 27 like most others.

[JCPetit]

JCPetit, I think you're right as far as where PK is skillwise, he has been a joy to watch, but there are unfortunately other, off-ice factors here as well.

If I remember Latendresse's case correctly, bringing him up too early not only (eventually) led to him not being able to be sent down to the AHL due to having played too many games and become waiver-eligible, but also accelerating his free agent eligibility by a year. I'm not sure what the number of games is that would change PK's status (sorry if someone posted this already) but I'd hate to risk losing a potential monster of a defenceman to free agency a year ahead of schedule by having him play out a season in which we have no chance of competing for the Cup. I will continue to support this team, but this bunch, with this coach, is going nowhere this year, with or without PK Subban.

Nobody is saying hold him back for four years, but letting him finish out the season in the AHL and then hopefully making the team out of camp next year is not really that huge of a delay....and it feels like a right thing to do for his development.

Subban is already older than Latendresse when he made the team. And let's be serious: don't compare Latendresse to Subban; they're not in the same league, as far as I am concerned. I would not trade Subban for the 1st round pick this year, and everybody knows that it's going to be Taylor Hall. That's how high I see Subban in my list. The defensive position is the hardest to learn and play with consistency in hockey. I believe that the Habs, for once, have been very luck in the draft. Subban will be a great player; he has all it takes. He works hard, is humble, yet extremely confident and optimistic. Reminds me a lot of Patrick Roy in some ways, Mario Tremblay in others. He is candid, a joy to listen to. Will make a lot of friends among his teamates. How not to like such a young man? On the ice, there's only one thing that could prevent him to become a star: injuries. The way I see it, though, he takes good care of himself and trains extremely hard to become stronger and more resilient. I sure wish him the best.

[redondo]

Subban is already older than Latendresse when he made the team. And let's be serious: don't compare Latendresse to Subban; they're not in the same league, as far as I am concerned. I would not trade Subban for the 1st round pick this year, and everybody knows that it's going to be Taylor Hall. That's how high I see Subban in my list. The defensive position is the hardest to learn and play with consistency in hockey. I believe that the Habs, for once, have been very luck in the draft. Subban will be a great player; he has all it takes. He works hard, is humble, yet extremely confident and optimistic. Reminds me a lot of Patrick Roy in some ways, Mario Tremblay in others. He is candid, a joy to listen to. Will make a lot of friends among his teamates. How not to like such a young man? On the ice, there's only one thing that could prevent him to become a star: injuries. The way I see it, though, he takes good care of himself and trains extremely hard to become stronger and more resilient. I sure wish him the best.

I wasn't comparing Latendresse and Subban skillwise, I was talking about their FA eligibility. Again, I'm not sure how the eligibility thing works and this may be moot, but if he is the future star you think he is (and I don't necessarily disagree), wouldn't you rather have an extra year of him at the reduced RFA rate on the other end, when he's fully developed, or the remainder of what is turning out to be a meaningless, transition year?

[KEEP26]

i think the habs what to see what Subban could do in the NHL because i think they well move one of our D..