Seb Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 big luvable dumb swede (don't ask) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoRvInA Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 WOOHOOO oh boy MAts u sure wanna be wearing the C of Sweden in the City you play while the majority of the fans (your fans) are cheering for the Canadian Team! Duh Gillis! HE's In Canada not Stockholm !!! btw Gillis came to my shop yesterday ..... annoying goof! Was this close to tell him something Habsworthy! but couldnt do it,,,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I don't see why the Canucks even want Sundin so badly other than to show everyone that they're serious abotu improving their offence. Their chances of winning the Cup in Sundin's two-year window are minimal, they should be looking for someone younger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Sometimes, it's not just about winning the Cup, you have to put asses in the seats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonus Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Sometimes, it's not just about winning the Cup, you have to put asses in the seats. the only way that the deal could possibly make sense for Vancouver is if Sundin could turn them from a non-playoff team to a playoff team. The effect of having a star on a team is minimal in terms of increasing revenue. Adding wins (which stars hopefully do) is what drives revenue. Teams that win more tend to make more money - the correlation between winning and making money is far higher than that of "stars" and making money. Some of the best examples come from other sports, such as baseball where A-Rod didn't do much for the Texas Rangers' attendance when they sucked and Ichiro and Bedard (even when healthy) aren't putting butts in the seats in Seattle now that they suck. If just having stars were enough, you'd expect attendance to go up immediately when a star player returns from the DL - this does not happen (at least until the team starts winning again because they have their big star back). Conversely, teams that lose their star to the DL but keep winning continue to fill the seats. Every marginal win, therefore, has value in terms of increasing attendance, ratings, memorabilia sales, etc.. I know in baseball the median marginal win is worth about $1.5mil. Lets be very generous and say that that between fewer games per year (each win should have twice the effect), less popularity, higher average ticket prices, and fewer seats the marginal hockey standings point (2 per win) is worth $250,000 (kinda pulled that out my ass). Of course, not all wins are equal. The difference between being a 60pt and 61pt team is pretty minimal, but the difference between being a 92pt team and a 93pt team is huge! The 92 pt team plays and the 93pt team goes to the playoffs. If every regular season win is worth $500,000, then lets say every playoff win is worth $1.5mil (maybe more). Lets say adding Sundin nets the Canucks 6 extra points (pretty significant for one player) - under my BS numbers, that is like $1.5mil in added revenue during the regular season. Now lets assume that without Sundin the Canucks are a 9-10th place team and with him they are a 7-8th place team. Sundin catapults them into the playoffs and gets them at least 2 home games, perhaps more. All of a sudden he is worth something more like $5-$6mil. Now my numbers could all be way too low and $10mil makes a lot of sense for vancouver, but this is how they are (or should) be calculating it. What I'm saying is that Sundin has value for a team that has no intention of trying for a cup. Now, the next obvious question is how much is Sundin worth to Montreal? It is tougher to say because the Habs already sell out their building, although they could become an even bigger road draw with Sundin. Turning the habs from a 100pt team to a 106pt team (or 104 to 110) is not so special or interesting. Almost the entire value of Sundin to the Habs (as I think we basically all know) is in the playoffs. Lets say that Sundin helps the Habs win in the first round in 5 or 6 games (so the rest of the team is more rested for the second round) - this has real economic value, as it increases the chance of the team getting an extra playoff round (each successive playoff round produces progressively more revenue). If Sundin is the difference that puts the Habs into the 3rd round of the playoff, his salary probably pays for itself. It's a bit more of a gamble for the Habs than for the Canucks, and that is probably why the salary offers we hear from the Canadiens are lower, but this is how it makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Sometimes, it's not just about winning the Cup, you have to put asses in the seats. I don't know for sure but I think the Canucks sold out every game last season even with a non-playoff team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonus Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I don't know for sure but I think the Canucks sold out every game last season even with a non-playoff team. just checked it out - they average 101.1% capacity last season. I guess I revise my earlier comments to say that Vancouver would see its revenue increase through television ratings and memorabilia sales. Don't road teams get a cut of the gate in the NHL? I guess if they are a better team, that'd help too. Do the Canucks put some of their games on pay-per-view? A better team would certainly increase pay-per-view sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 just checked it out - they average 101.1% capacity last season. I guess I revise my earlier comments to say that Vancouver would see its revenue increase through television ratings and memorabilia sales. Don't road teams get a cut of the gate in the NHL? I guess if they are a better team, that'd help too. Do the Canucks put some of their games on pay-per-view? A better team would certainly increase pay-per-view sales. Yes, the do, unless they are making changes this season. I don't live in BC, Vinny just talks to me about them a lot. I think they only televise 50-60 games on cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Stealth Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Yes, the do, unless they are making changes this season. I don't live in BC, Vinny just talks to me about them a lot. I think they only televise 50-60 games on cable. All games are televised and last year they lowered the number of PPV games to 17 I believe if I remember correctly. Their current sellout streak dates back to November of 2002 as well. To Bitton, they want Sundin to show the fans and Luongo that they are serious about winning. Obtaining a Sundin you'd think would make the team better overall and a lot more appealing for players to want to come here. If Gillis can't make stuff happen, there's no doubt in my mind Luongo walks in 2 years time. Sundin's free and allows the organization to keep it's future assets as well. All I'm going to say is even without Sundin, they're heading in the right direction so far as letting Nazzy and Morrison go was certainly needed for the team to move forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokyohabs Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 RDS running a strange story that Sundin will play in the Couve - but with lots of denials thrown in. http://www.rds.ca/hockey/chroniques/256001.html Some newspaper in Sweden (Daily News) is writing that the deal is done. Sundin's Euro and N.A. agents are in denial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAKS-AVENUE Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 RDS running a strange story that Sundin will play in the Couve - but with lots of denials thrown in. http://www.rds.ca/hockey/chroniques/256001.html Some newspaper in Sweden (Daily News) is writing that the deal is done. Sundin's Euro and N.A. agents are in denial. Beautiful mountain scenery, Snow caps, Ocean, etc......there is a lot to love about Vancouver, and yes the Olympics will be right there. Oh right!!!!! 20 mill, the small little fortune the team is offering. Many many many reasons to believe this will be Sundin's choice. I wouldn't blame him. The one and only thing I'm hanging on to is whenever something gets this much hype in the media usually turns out to be bullshite, and the guy ends up doing what is unexpected. In this case Mats would sign with the Leafs(unexpected) but since the Montreal media is so damn calm I feel a sense of " we just might get the guy"..............Vancouver has definitely stepped up to the plate cash wise and unfortunately money talks. We shall see soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitforming Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 All games are televised and last year they lowered the number of PPV games to 17 I believe if I remember correctly. Their current sellout streak dates back to November of 2002 as well. To Bitton, they want Sundin to show the fans and Luongo that they are serious about winning. Obtaining a Sundin you'd think would make the team better overall and a lot more appealing for players to want to come here. If Gillis can't make stuff happen, there's no doubt in my mind Luongo walks in 2 years time. Sundin's free and allows the organization to keep it's future assets as well. All I'm going to say is even without Sundin, they're heading in the right direction so far as letting Nazzy and Morrison go was certainly needed for the team to move forward. It had to be done, no doubt about it. Don't you think a trade last season (once they were obviously going to miss post season action)would have served the team better though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Beautiful mountain scenery, Snow caps, Ocean, etc......there is a lot to love about Vancouver, and yes the Olympics will be right there. Oh right!!!!! 20 mill, the small little fortune the team is offering. Many many many reasons to believe this will be Sundin's choice. I wouldn't blame him. The one and only thing I'm hanging on to is whenever something gets this much hype in the media usually turns out to be bullshite, and the guy ends up doing what is unexpected. In this case Mats would sign with the Leafs(unexpected) but since the Montreal media is so damn calm I feel a sense of " we just might get the guy"..............Vancouver has definitely stepped up to the plate cash wise and unfortunately money talks. We shall see soon enough. I will believe that he has signed with Vancouver when I see him sitting at a table wearing the Canucks jersey at a press conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAKS-AVENUE Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I will believe that he has signed with Vancouver when I see him sitting at a table wearing the Canucks jersey at a press conference. I'm with you, I guess you can say I'm just welcoming that idea so when and if it happens it won't be so hard. Anyways .....like you all I don't check EK often but he does have a swedish translated interview with Mats up.....says he'll have an answer by the end of the month or early august Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 If Sundin signs with Vancouver, I will be very frustrated. UFAs used to reject us on the grounds that we were a crap team. Now we're the defending Eastern Conference champs who play an electrifying style and are loaded with talent, and have a great organization, while the main competition is a plodding, middling team with rookie management, interfering, amateur owners and absolutely zero chance of winning the Stanely Cup. So what will be the excuse this time? He prefers sushi to smoked meat? Sorry. After so many irrational rejections, I'm a little paranoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 If Sundin signs with Vancouver, I will be very frustrated. UFAs used to reject us on the grounds that we were a crap team. Now we're the defending Eastern Conference champs who play an electrifying style and are loaded with talent, and have a great organization, while the main competition is a plodding, middling team with rookie management, interfering, amateur owners and absolutely zero chance of winning the Stanely Cup. So what will be the excuse this time? He prefers sushi to smoked meat? Come on, his excuse would be obvious. "Even though some in Toronto bashed me for showing loyalty, I still couldn't bring myself to sign with Toronto's arch rival. It just wouldn't be right for me to do." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 If Sundin signs with Vancouver, I will be very frustrated. UFAs used to reject us on the grounds that we were a crap team. Now we're the defending Eastern Conference champs who play an electrifying style and are loaded with talent, and have a great organization, while the main competition is a plodding, middling team with rookie management, interfering, amateur owners and absolutely zero chance of winning the Stanely Cup. So what will be the excuse this time? He prefers sushi to smoked meat? Sorry. After so many irrational rejections, I'm a little paranoid. If you removed the logos from all the teams involved Sundin would sign with the Habs. It is a no brainer. But he has loyalty to an organization and it's fans. The thing I don't understand is that the Habs and Leafs have not had a real rivalry in 40 years and the fans have hated the Sens with more passion during his Leaf tenure. If he signs with the Leafs he is an idiot, if he signs with the Canucks he wants $$ and if he signs with the Habs he wants to win a Cup. That is how I will view it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 If it were the Sens, I'd understand. But come on... the Montreal/Toronto rivalry has been lamer than "Mumma Mia" for the entirety of Sundin's stay in Toronto. It only picked up modestly during the 2005-06 and 2006-07 seasons when both teams were battling for the same playoff spots. If Ryan Smyth can live with signing in Colorado, than Sundin can sign with Montreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Stealth Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 (edited) It had to be done, no doubt about it. Don't you think a trade last season (once they were obviously going to miss post season action)would have served the team better though? You mean to move Nazzy and Morrison before the deadline? If that's what you mean, then of course it would have bettered the team in terms of adding future assets but the thing many people don't realize is that the Canucks only were eliminated from playoff contention in their second to last game vs the Oilers in a game they should have won. A craptastic game with our no show offense like usual led by captain Nazzy. The thing I've begun to realize is how underrated Vancouver's defence is as people make it sound as if Vancouver is some bottom feeder that would be nothing without Luongo. Now I'll agree they'd be so without Luongo but it's how the team is built and Vancouver's D when healthy is excellent. Last year was just an unbelievably frustrating season in terms of injuries, to the backend especially. Our centre depth sucked as we had ahl'ers playing in our 2nd line centre spot for half the season with Morrison being out on top of having a injury ravaged defenive core. At one point our entire starting defense was out. I mean not only is it the focal point of our strength gone but we're missing a second line leaving the Sedins to produce with the likes of Naslund(only) who obviously wasn't happy here anymore. Pyatt was blossoming on that line half way through until a puck to the face had him out a bit and he never regained form the rest of the year playing with them. Not to mention Luongo's wife with the difficult pregnancy. I know, I know, but he wasn't himself and our torn apart blue line didn't make it easier. That was basically the same core group(aside from Bulis ) that won the division the previous season. I'm making excuses, I know but I'm trying to stress where things might have gone wrong for them last year and believe me, a LOT did. The fact they were even in the playoff picture at game 81 of the season says something. Daniel - Henrik - Bernier Raymond - Wellwood(Hodgson, but that's a pipe dream at this point) - Demitra Burrows - Kesler - Pyatt Hordichuk - Johnson - Pettinger Shannon, Krog Mitchell - Bieksa Ohlund - Edler Krajicek - Salo Davison Luongo Sanford That team there with the likes of Michael Grabner and Jannik Hansen ready to step in for offensive support is a big boost over last year. That team is better than last years as far as I'm concerned. How they'll play together and how the season unfolds is unknown. Bottom feeder or playoff contender or even possibly more, we shall see won't we? On the Sundin topic, it's not such a big deal on my end. Hopefully he signs with you guys and puts you in position to win it all. It's been a difficult time for Habs fans with all the free agents turning their backs on you guys as I'm well aware. Here's hoping Mats changes that for all of you. Edited July 21, 2008 by Captain_Stealth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Morrison was injured for the 2nd half of last year... he couldn't be traded by the Canucks at the deadline. Naslund could have, but that was the old regime and Nonis might've had other plans. It was a very Souray like situation... they were still very much in the playoff race at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonus Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 If Sundin signs with Vancouver, I will be very frustrated. UFAs used to reject us on the grounds that we were a crap team. Now we're the defending Eastern Conference champs who play an electrifying style and are loaded with talent, and have a great organization, while the main competition is a plodding, middling team with rookie management, interfering, amateur owners and absolutely zero chance of winning the Stanely Cup. So what will be the excuse this time? He prefers sushi to smoked meat? Sorry. After so many irrational rejections, I'm a little paranoid. as has been rehashed time and again on this board, there are reasons other than stanley cup prospects that could lead a guy to rationally choose not to play in Montreal. There is the ever-present tax issue (although I am still a bit unclear how that would affect a guy in Sundin's position), a voracious and vicious press and fan base, the language issue, the cold, and, in this case, more money being offered elsewhere. As far as picking a team based on chances of a championship, maybe Sundin feels that Price isn't exactly Brodeur ver.2 and that the team is generally too youth-heavy to make a deep run (I should note that I personally love the Price+Halak tandem and think our youth is a strength). As far as goalie (if nothing else), NYR and Vancouver both have safer situations. Add in the fact that playing for a bitter rival in the Northeast Division means that he will be booed three times a season in a building where he wants his number "honoured" and Sundin would be totally reasonable in choosing to go elsewhere. Of course, as the fanboy I am I totally think Sundin will wake up on August 8th and don the blue-blanc-rouge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsfan Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 There is the ever-present tax issue (although I am still a bit unclear how that would affect a guy in Sundin's position), a voracious and vicious press and fan base, the language issue, the cold, and, in this case, more money being offered elsewhere. AS far as I know, the difference in teh tax rates in B.C and Québec is minimal. Nothing compard to the USA. There might be a 1 or 2 percentage point difference, which is negligeable! The press and the fans in Vancouver as just as Hockey mad. As for the language issue, Sundin wouldn't be here long enough for it to actually make a difference. The cold...well you might have something there. Vancouver is much milder in the winter months, however Montréal has alot more to offer in terms of restaurants and nightlife! Let's not forget that Montreal is also closer to all the major north-eastern markets. Doesn't Sundin's girlfriend work for Leafs TV? Wouldn't that mean that she would most likely remain in Toronto? If that's the case, wouldn't it make his life a heckova lot easier to be in Montréal, which is a 55 minute flight from Toronto compared to a 4 hour flight to Vancouver? I any case, i like the fact that there aren't many rumours of Sundin coming to Montréal. The more that we hear rumours about Sundin going to Vancouver, the more I think our chances are better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 as has been rehashed time and again on this board, there are reasons other than stanley cup prospects that could lead a guy to rationally choose not to play in Montreal. There is the ever-present tax issue (although I am still a bit unclear how that would affect a guy in Sundin's position), a voracious and vicious press and fan base, the language issue, the cold, and, in this case, more money being offered elsewhere. As far as picking a team based on chances of a championship, maybe Sundin feels that Price isn't exactly Brodeur ver.2 and that the team is generally too youth-heavy to make a deep run (I should note that I personally love the Price+Halak tandem and think our youth is a strength). As far as goalie (if nothing else), NYR and Vancouver both have safer situations. Add in the fact that playing for a bitter rival in the Northeast Division means that he will be booed three times a season in a building where he wants his number "honoured" and Sundin would be totally reasonable in choosing to go elsewhere. Of course, as the fanboy I am I totally think Sundin will wake up on August 8th and don the blue-blanc-rouge. Sundin does have previous exposure to the tax issue, so I don't know if that will stop him. Not like Ontario taxes are like Florida's. He has to deal with a ######ed press in Toronto as well. One that upper management unleashed on him when they wanted him to waive his no trade clause. Leaf fans, well they are less demanding. The language might be an issue, but he is a hired gun and will not have to deal with it to the same extent as THE CAPTAIN of the Montreal Canadiens does. Nobody bothers Andre Markov, Kovalev etc over the French issue. Hockey players are generally stupid in their free agency decisions. He may look at Vancouver and say the Leafs just missed the playoffs as well. To a casual observer the Canucks are Luongo, the Sedins and hang on to win a 1-0 game. I just don't think you leave a $10M deal on the table for 3 weeks if you are that serious about heading out west. I may be biased but the Canadiens have to beat a depleted Pens team, the Rangers, Sens or Flyers to make the Finals, the Canucks have to beat the Wings, Stars, Ducks, Flames etc just to make the Cup Finals. He also saw the Habs 8 times last year and knows how good Andre Kostitsyn is, how good Mike Komisarek is, how good Carey Price is etc etc. IMO this is about loyalty to the sweater. Nothing else. Borje Salming is a good friend and he told him his biggest regret was leaving the Leafs at the end of his career, I imagine that has a lot to do with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zowpeb Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 IMO this is about loyalty to the sweater. Nothing else. Borje Salming is a good friend and he told him his biggest regret was leaving the Leafs at the end of his career, I imagine that has a lot to do with this. I agree...but I also think he may have talked to Gilmour...who IIRC has recently left the Leafs organization since he wasn't getting a shot at a coaching position and that's the path he wants to go down. I suspect Gilmour would say that his experience with both teams was good... I can pretty much guarantee that Leaf fans wouldn't hold a grudge against Sundin for pulling on the CH. There may be some idiots but most Leaf fans have resigned themselves that their team is going to suck and don't expect Sundin to return. IMO, an easy way around this (if it is an issue) would be a 2 year deal with an option to deal him back to the Leafs if the Habs are out of contention in year 2...so he can retire a Leaf if he wants. Perhaps a contract with a heavier weighting to this season...if that helps the cap situtation for such a trade possibility. More money upfront may also help financially overcome Van City's offer and the cap hit is averaged anyhow... I'm surprised that teams aren't offering a lot more front loaded deals with the intent of dealing players in the following years when their tradeable cap hit is lower...thus increasing the potential return...or am I wrong about the cap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 What is a blds ? big ....obvious lovable ...everyone wants him dumn can't figure out playing hockey for 15 or 20 million dollars is a good thing swede obvious sorry i have been using this for a while and I like it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.