Permanent Rumour Thread

[hab29RETIRED]

Jaroslav Spacek+pick for Bieksa..

I'd do that without blinking, but unfortunately, I don't think anyone in the league would want Spacek!

I thought of a Bieksa trade that could work out but Vancouver doesn't get to shed a d-man so I don't know if this would serve any purpose for them:

Spacek + O'Byrne for Bieksa + Alberts

Salaries match up, sort of equal value.

I still don't want to give up on O'Byrne. Unfortunately, i doubt he'll amount to anything until he gets away from the Penguin

Next year we can dump Hammer and Gill. To bad we are stuck with Spacek for another painful year.

Edited October 26, 2010 by hab29RETIRED

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Vancouver has desperate cap pressures. I'm pretty sure they are looking to dump Bieksa's salary, not take comparable salary back. Therefore, a straight up Bieksa-for-O'Byrne deal would make the most sense for them. And that's a trade I'd make in a flash.

But it would likely transfer cap problems to us. So any such deal would need to come with some analysis of how the Habs are to fit Bieksa under the cap.

On the other hand, Spacek is the type of player that would greatly interest a 'win now!' organization such as the Canucks: a seasoned veteran warrior. I just don't see the 'nucks taking back the salary.

Edited October 26, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[JGC21]

Vancouver has desperate cap pressures. I'm pretty sure they are looking to dump Bieksa's salary, not take comparable salary back. Therefore, a straight up Bieksa-for-O'Byrne deal would make the most sense for them. And that's a trade I'd make in a flash.

But it would likely transfer cap problems to us. So any such deal would need to come with some analysis of how the Habs are to fit Bieksa under the cap.

On the other hand, Spacek is the type of player that would greatly interest a 'win now!' organization such as the Canucks: a seasoned veteran warrior. I just don't see the 'nucks taking back the salary.

I agree with everything you said. It's clear that Gauthier is looking at the defense corps of the Habs for beyond this season. I'm guessing Markov will sign an extension but beyond him, Jorges and Subban - there's a lot of holes to fill next year: Gill is gone. Hamrlik is gone. Spacek will probably be gone. Prospects like O'Byrne, Weber, Carle haven't worked out. Rentals like Marc-Andre Bergeron and Alex Picard are not the future. Enter, Kevin Bieksa.

I see the Habs putting together a package that includes O'Byrne and a forward for Bieksa. I think the two sides are waiting for defencemen to return from injury before they make this trade (Salo, Markov). The Habs should sign Bieksa for 3-4 years thus rebuilding their blue line for 2011 and beyond. It's a good start with this:

Markov / Subban

Bieksa / Gorges

[saskhab]

Spacek has a NTC, I believe. Anyways, he's a better d-man right now than the way Bieksa has been playing in Vancouver. Although Bieksa is clearly a 'change of scenery' rebound candidate. It would be nice to have a top 4 guy with the physical dimension he can bring, really the only guy in our system with top 4 and some physical presence is Subban, who has the strength (and the mouth) moreso than the intimidating size.

Keith Ballard is out right now in Vancouver with a concussion, so he could be put on LTIR when Burrows gets cleared, so this whole Vancouver thing could be delayed even further.

[dlbalr]

Spacek has a NTC, I believe. Anyways, he's a better d-man right now than the way Bieksa has been playing in Vancouver. Although Bieksa is clearly a 'change of scenery' rebound candidate. It would be nice to have a top 4 guy with the physical dimension he can bring, really the only guy in our system with top 4 and some physical presence is Subban, who has the strength (and the mouth) moreso than the intimidating size.

Keith Ballard is out right now in Vancouver with a concussion, so he could be put on LTIR when Burrows gets cleared, so this whole Vancouver thing could be delayed even further.

Spacek does have a partial NTC, yes. As for Ballard, I hope not...I have in the pool.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I agree with everything you said. It's clear that Gauthier is looking at the defense corps of the Habs for beyond this season. I'm guessing Markov will sign an extension but beyond him, Jorges and Subban - there's a lot of holes to fill next year: Gill is gone. Hamrlik is gone. Spacek will probably be gone. Prospects like O'Byrne, Weber, Carle haven't worked out. Rentals like Marc-Andre Bergeron and Alex Picard are not the future. Enter, Kevin Bieksa.

I see the Habs putting together a package that includes O'Byrne and a forward for Bieksa. I think the two sides are waiting for defencemen to return from injury before they make this trade (Salo, Markov). The Habs should sign Bieksa for 3-4 years thus rebuilding their blue line for 2011 and beyond. It's a good start with this:

Markov / Subban

Bieksa / Gorges

This is some sharp analysis and certainly explains why acquiring Bieksa would make sense going forward. Given the cap headaches it would generate, though, it's probably a deal better left until later in the season. That way you have a better chance of having accrued savings via LTIR and also offloading salary in the trade-deadline frenzy to fit Bieksa in.

The 'adding a forward' scenario is a bit awkward as we don't have a surplus of quality at forward either; but I could certainly see Vancouver insisting on this in light of O'Byrne's questionable value. This might mean throwing in a Boyd, who is cheap and increasingly seems to be on the outs with Martin. The other, more realistic possibility is someone like David Desharnais. He would represent a legitimate young prospect who would fit much better in the Canucks' system than ours, given that size is not nearly as big an issue for them, and their ongoing need for secondary scoring depth.

By the way, habs' fans should avoid over-rating Bieksa. Yes, he's big and yes, he can fire the puck. He's also notorious for defensive gaffes and has a generally erratic profile. A high risk, high reward type. He could be a great fit, but I can almost guarantee you that he will eventually be hated by a sizeable chunk of the fanbase if he does sign here.

One further thing to note is that just because the contract of an older guy is up doesn't mean he automatically has to leave town. Hammer, for instance, is still a very useful player, and if we can re-sign him at a lower cost might be worth looking at. Even Gill, I'd consider on a one-year deal (but not if we acquire Bieksa).

Another question is whether this team is better with or without Spacek, who presumably would be our top candidate for salary dumping at the deadline. It's well and good to say that he is likely to be desirable to teams that are 'going for it,' but given our playoff run last season would it really be wise for us to dump this kind of player heading into the stretch? It is not beyond the realm of possibility that we too may be just good enough to make any salary dumping problematic.

[dlbalr]

This is some sharp analysis and certainly explains why acquiring Bieksa would make sense going forward. Given the cap headaches it would generate, though, it's probably a deal better left until later in the season. That way you have a better chance of having accrued savings via LTIR and also offloading salary in the trade-deadline frenzy to fit Bieksa in.

Accruing LTIR space doesn't save cap space - in fact, one could argue the opposite. LTIR space is the amount that has to be used (off the regular cap) before LTIR can come into play. Most people don't seem to realize also that LTIR = 0 cap space when all is said and done, you theoretically max out at the cap.

I agree though that it's a deal best left until later in the season - unfortunately though, the same can't be said for Vancouver who needs to make these deals ASAP. If there's a deal between Vancouver/Montreal brewing, it'll be done within the next 10-14 days.

[Habsy]

I agree with everything you said. It's clear that Gauthier is looking at the defense corps of the Habs for beyond this season. I'm guessing Markov will sign an extension but beyond him, Jorges and Subban - there's a lot of holes to fill next year: Gill is gone. Hamrlik is gone. Spacek will probably be gone. Prospects like O'Byrne, Weber, Carle haven't worked out. Rentals like Marc-Andre Bergeron and Alex Picard are not the future. Enter, Kevin Bieksa.

I see the Habs putting together a package that includes O'Byrne and a forward for Bieksa. I think the two sides are waiting for defencemen to return from injury before they make this trade (Salo, Markov). The Habs should sign Bieksa for 3-4 years thus rebuilding their blue line for 2011 and beyond. It's a good start with this:

Markov / Subban

Bieksa / Gorges

Gill is telling everyone he wants to stay, and I like the idea. Hopefully at a reasonable salary.

[KEEP26]

As anyone seen Bieksa play this year? He as 0 pts in 9 games...

[l.moustakas]

I'm sorry, but assuming that the Habs trade two younger players (say, O'Byrne + Forward), how exactly does Bieksa's 3+ million fit under Montreal's cap? According to our (ok, Brian's) Cap Sheet, the Canadiens have just a hair above 300,000 dollars in space. One option would be to offload Jaro Spacek, but that is much easier said than done.

[dlbalr]

I'm sorry, but assuming that the Habs trade two younger players (say, O'Byrne + Forward), how exactly does Bieksa's 3+ million fit under Montreal's cap? According to our (ok, Brian's) Cap Sheet, the Canadiens have just a hair above 300,000 dollars in space. One option would be to offload Jaro Spacek, but that is much easier said than done.

There's 2 key figures on the capsheet - the $315k and change represents the full roster as it stands (including Bishop) plus assuming all bonuses are hit - this is how it'll have to be calculated next year so may as well get in the habit of looking at it. There's also a ~$740k one which is the same but assuming none of Eller's bonuses are hit - and the way he's producing, that's becoming a legit assumption. Fortunately, Bishop will be off the cap within a week or two which should increase both figures by about $50,000 or so.

As it stands, this is the only way I can sort of figure out making a deal work without moving Spacek^: (Note all figures are remaining cap hits as of Oct. 31.)

Outgoing:

Travis Moen ($1,298,387)

Ryan O'Byrne ($815,099)*

Alexandre Picard ($519,355)*

* Either as part of the trade or waived for AHL demotion to get down to 7 d-men

Incoming:

Kevin Bieksa ($3,245,968)

However, such a deal would leave the Habs with just 12 forwards, which isn't entirely realistic. So, we need a replacement player. I'm going to go at it a little differently and call two up while sending Eller down so he can get some more ice time.

Coming up:

David Desharnais ($476,075)

Ryan White (NC-$735,753, C-$549,651)

(NC - Non-cushioned, assume all bonuses are hit, C - cushioned, assume no bonuses hit)

Going down:

Lars Eller (NC-$1,100,022, C-$757,392)

Now for the tricky part, doing the final calculations... (Bishop assumed to count for $8,000 more against the cap before demotion)

Projected spending (assuming all bonuses hit) $51,783,762

+ 09-10 overage and spent to date: $7,975,294

= $59,759,056 (over cap by $359,056)

- Backed out White/Eller pro-rated bonuses (215,000 + 57,123) $272,123

= New overage 86,933

^ - I said the deal would work, just not today... As the days progress, the gap between Bieksa's hit and the sum of the 3 being traded/waived decreases, shrinking the overage.

So as you can see, it's doable, just not yet and probably not with White being a replacement callup, it'd have to be a guy like Wyman or Conboy (550k). It'd also leave the Habs with very little wiggle room...again. My head hurts, time to stop thinking about this...where did the last half hour go?

[JoeLassister]

So as you can see, it's doable, just not yet and probably not with White being a replacement callup, it'd have to be a guy like Wyman or Conboy (550k). It'd also leave the Habs with very little wiggle room...again. My head hurts, time to stop thinking about this...where did the last half hour go?

Probably somewhere between Montreal and Vancouver...

[KEEP26]

I heard somewhere that Columbus Blue Jackets was trying to dump Mike Commodore this summer. Do u guys think it be good to trade Spacek for him?

[dlbalr]

I heard somewhere that Columbus Blue Jackets was trying to dump Mike Commodore this summer. Do u guys think it be good to trade Spacek for him?

It depends on whether or not merely getting rid of Spacek is worth taking on an extra year at basically a similar salary/cap hit. Spacek has this year and next at $3.83 M and change, Commodore has this plus two more years at $3.75 M. He's the type of guy you'd love to have for the playoffs, but I personally can't see that justifying taking on an extra year for no other reason.

It should be noted though that Commodore's salary declines by the year so theoretically speaking, he would be easier to trade as the years progress (just like Gomez).

[BTH]

I heard somewhere that Columbus Blue Jackets was trying to dump Mike Commodore this summer. Do u guys think it be good to trade Spacek for him?

No way. Spacek's contract ends one year earlier.

[KEEP26]

No way. Spacek's contract ends one year earlier.

but would he be better for the team to win now?

Mike Commodore Age: 30

POB: Fort Saskatchewan, Alta., Canada

Height: 6-5 Weight: 235lbs

Shoots: R

3,750,000

or

Jaroslav Spacek Age: 36

POB: Rokycany, Czech. (now Czech Republic)

Height: 6-0 Weight: 210lbs

Shoots: L

3,833,333

[BTH]

but would he be better for the team to win now?

Mike Commodore Age: 30

POB: Fort Saskatchewan, Alta., Canada

Height: 6-5 Weight: 235lbs

Shoots: R

3,750,000

or

Jaroslav Spacek Age: 36

POB: Rokycany, Czech. (now Czech Republic)

Height: 6-0 Weight: 210lbs

Shoots: L

3,833,333

I have no idea how Commodore plays these days but I imagine he's over the hill and no better than Spacek.

Plus I don't really have a problem with Spacek. He seems to be getting slower but he's still at least, a decent bottom pairing d-man that can play on the 2nd PP unit.

For me that one year difference on their contracts is a really big deal, so I say 'no way.'

[Seb]

I have no idea how Commodore plays these days but I imagine he's over the hill and no better than Spacek.

Plus I don't really have a problem with Spacek. He seems to be getting slower but he's still at least, a decent bottom pairing d-man that can play on the 2nd PP unit.

For me that one year difference on their contracts is a really big deal, so I say 'no way.'

+1. No way.

Gagnon said it well the other night: (Something along the lines of) "Spacek is in Brisebois territory: he doesn't make that many bad plays, it's just the ones he's made this season have been extremely obvious, and as a result, everyone overlooks the good little things he does, and there are many, and focuses on the couple of mistakes that looked terrible. He is by no means a bad defenseman."

I like him. But as a 36 year old, I don't expect him to be top of his game for 82 games plus playoffs. And he's good as a #4 or #5 defenseman.

[bar]

The attitude of teams have to change, Spacek pre-lockout is a great player to have in the bottom pairing, with a cap can you afford to have a 3.5m on your bottom pairing. I also think pairing Markov with Spacey or Hammer and PK with the other will help both pairings.

[l.moustakas]

So as you can see, it's doable, just not yet and probably not with White being a replacement callup, it'd have to be a guy like Wyman or Conboy (550k). It'd also leave the Habs with very little wiggle room...again. My head hurts, time to stop thinking about this...where did the last half hour go?

Your point is well taken. But, the notion of clearing Spacek is really not only one of cap space, but also of roster space. In a setup where Bieska is added while O'Byrne and Picard are waived or traded, you end up with a logjam:

Subban - Markov

Gorges - Gill

Spacek - Hamrlik

Bieska

Subban and Gorges are the lowest paid of the group, earning 875 K and 1,1 M respectively. However, they don't look to be sitting in the press box anytime soon. That means that you end up with a 7th blueliner that costs at least 2,25 M dollars. I thought, and still do, that it was insane for the Flyers to accept Mezjaros' 4M dollar hit to fill out their D as opposed to using that money to address their weak goaltending. In the same vein, it would be equally foolhardy for the Canadiens to add to a position of strength instead of addressing their need for another scoring forward.

P.S Hey, Brian, I hear the Devils are looking for a capologist. Seems like your pretty good and heaven knows they need one.

[Habsy]

The attitude of teams have to change, Spacek pre-lockout is a great player to have in the bottom pairing, with a cap can you afford to have a 3.5m on your bottom pairing. I also think pairing Markov with Spacey or Hammer and PK with the other will help both pairings.

You know what bar? I like that suggestion. And it's one I haven't heard. Not from a hockey perspective so much, who knows if they're compatable? But for the people management idea. If Markov was able to make Komisarek look good, he might be able to work miracles with a player like Spacek, who actually has some talent.

[bar]

I meant to say you cannot afford 3.5m player on the bottom pairing.

[BlueKross]

You know what bar? I like that suggestion. And it's one I haven't heard. Not from a hockey perspective so much, who knows if they're compatable? But for the people management idea. If Markov was able to make Komisarek look good, he might be able to work miracles with a player like Spacek, who actually has some talent.

Speaking of Komisarek, the leafs must realize that they need to move a defenseman to have any chance of getting scoring up front. I wonder if we offered Gomez up for Kommi orBeauchamin, took Finger off their books if we couldn't get a nice young asset to make the deal work for us?

[KEEP26]

Speaking of Komisarek, the leafs must realize that they need to move a defenseman to have any chance of getting scoring up front. I wonder if we offered Gomez up for Kommi orBeauchamin, took Finger off their books if we couldn't get a nice young asset to make the deal work for us?

NO WAY

[dlbalr]

P.S Hey, Brian, I hear the Devils are looking for a capologist. Seems like your pretty good and heaven knows they need one.

They sure could use one, that's for sure. Mind you, cap wise they've been lucking out with injuries...mind you that doesn't help their on-ice product.