The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Imagine the perception now. Weber can't even find his way into the line-up of a depleted D-core. Teams won;t offer up anything for him I don't think.....but I do think he will be dealt. Then he'll go on to bigger and better things like the rest of our discarded players. I think you're right. He is going through something that happens to most young players, especially young defencemen - the Big Step Backwards that has to be overcome if the player in question is to grow up and emerge as a true NHLer. It happened to O'Byrne, it happened to Komisarek, Price, to Subban, even to Markov way back. I really think the wise move is for the organization to patiently ride out the crisis point (could take months), working diligently with him to teach him how to get better and to restore his confidence. Most likely, though, he'll be shipped out, eventually to find steady work as a second-tier offensive defenceman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 For most guys I preach patience. But with Weber, and the fact that Subban will always be ahead of him on the depth chart; and the fact he's very similar to Diaz.... I think he's redundant. RH offensive dmen... how many can you have? Subban is the number 1 guy. Can you play both Diaz and Weber behind him? I think its redundant. I think Diaz has outperformed Weber, so I get what I can for Weber, and try to improve another area (young forward prospects). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwihab Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 For most guys I preach patience. But with Weber, and the fact that Subban will always be ahead of him on the depth chart; and the fact he's very similar to Diaz.... I think he's redundant. RH offensive dmen... how many can you have? Subban is the number 1 guy. Can you play both Diaz and Weber behind him? I think its redundant. I think Diaz has outperformed Weber, so I get what I can for Weber, and try to improve another area (young forward prospects). Sorry but I don't get why you would do this. We have traded constantly for defensemen over the last couple of seasons. It seems to me trading away defensive depth at this point would be foolish, particularly as at the moment, you would not get much for him. If we are going after young talent I would prefer to try and deal Spacek to a contender at the deadline when we would probably get at least the same or maybe more and we would only lose a guy that is on the downslope of his career as opposed to the other way round. I realise that I am slightly contradicting myself with argueing to keep Weber for defensive depth while suggesting we trade Spacek, but I just believe we should stick with some of our young talent a bit longer before deciding they are a bust. (Particularly as over the first few games Weber showed he has the talent, just needs some confidence and consistency) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 O'Byrne hadn't played in how many games when he was traded? Again O'Byrne was a 6'5 or 6'6 D-man who could play rough. These are the types of players teams want for their #5-6 d-men. They don;t wan small guys who struggles with containment and haven't proved they can do anything offensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Sorry but I don't get why you would do this. We have traded constantly for defensemen over the last couple of seasons. It seems to me trading away defensive depth at this point would be foolish, particularly as at the moment, you would not get much for him. If we are going after young talent I would prefer to try and deal Spacek to a contender at the deadline when we would probably get at least the same or maybe more and we would only lose a guy that is on the downslope of his career as opposed to the other way round. I realise that I am slightly contradicting myself with argueing to keep Weber for defensive depth while suggesting we trade Spacek, but I just believe we should stick with some of our young talent a bit longer before deciding they are a bust. (Particularly as over the first few games Weber showed he has the talent, just needs some confidence and consistency) Even if Weber turns his game around; I firmly believe that a team that ices alll 3 of Subban,, Diaz, and Weber as their three defencemen on the right side of the ice... is completely redundant. Too many guys with the same skill set. You need balance in the defense core and with those three on the right side; you don't have it. The two swiss guys might as well be the same guy.... only difference is that one has a better slapshot, and the other is better in his own end. But they are both undersized, rh, offensive defencemen. You need another guy like Emelin on that side of the ice. Again O'Byrne was a 6'5 or 6'6 D-man who could play rough. These are the types of players teams want for their #5-6 d-men. They don;t wan small guys who struggles with containment and haven't proved they can do anything offensively. Depends on the team though. A team that doesn't have a guy who can fire the puck from the point, woud look for a Weber. Bergeron and Foster both keep finding jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Even if Weber turns his game around; I firmly believe that a team that ices alll 3 of Subban,, Diaz, and Weber as their three defencemen on the right side of the ice... is completely redundant. Too many guys with the same skill set. Diaz and Weber, I'd agree with there. But Subban is more than just one cut above, he's the kind of player who could very well develop into elite, and his defensive skills are already better than the other two combined. I see Subban as a legitimate #1/2 guy now (i.e. rounding into a complete defender) and the type around which you can build a defence. My opinion is that you have to take him out of the equation in your example. I totally agree that *at least* one of Diaz and Weber is redundant, but I can't agree that Subban should even be in the same conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Diaz and Weber, I'd agree with there. But Subban is more than just one cut above, he's the kind of player who could very well develop into elite, and his defensive skills are already better than the other two combined. I see Subban as a legitimate #1/2 guy now (i.e. rounding into a complete defender) and the type around which you can build a defence. My opinion is that you have to take him out of the equation in your example. I totally agree that *at least* one of Diaz and Weber is redundant, but I can't agree that Subban should even be in the same conversation. Agreed.... Subban is a cut above and has the defensive skill the other two lack. I'm a huge Subban fan, and don't get me wrong here... I'm not comparing those two to Subban nor would I trade Subban because of their presence. Subban is becoming a legit number 1 dman. Subban is absolutely a cut above them offensively, defensively, in all aspects of the game. However I'm just looking at the redundancy factor. You have 3 guys... all of whom Right Handed Dmen, and all of whom bring offence from that position. Subban is your unquestioned #1 of the three... an untouchable. Diaz/Weber are 2/3.... I like Diaz better personally, but others might make a case for Weber. There is a redundancy in having all 3 guys in the lineup. Subban stays... no question about it.... but there is no point in keeping both Diaz and Weber, when Subban is already providing offence. You don't need all 3 of your right defencemen to be PP guys. I do believe the third needs to put some fear in opposing forwards when they skate down the left wing, that there is a defenceman who patrols that side of the ice, ready to hit them into next week, ala Emelin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Agreed.... Subban is a cut above and has the defensive skill the other two lack. I'm a huge Subban fan, and don't get me wrong here... I'm not comparing those two to Subban nor would I trade Subban because of their presence. Subban is becoming a legit number 1 dman. Subban is absolutely a cut above them offensively, defensively, in all aspects of the game. However I'm just looking at the redundancy factor. You have 3 guys... all of whom Right Handed Dmen, and all of whom bring offence from that position. Subban is your unquestioned #1 of the three... an untouchable. Diaz/Weber are 2/3.... I like Diaz better personally, but others might make a case for Weber. There is a redundancy in having all 3 guys in the lineup. Subban stays... no question about it.... but there is no point in keeping both Diaz and Weber, when Subban is already providing offence. You don't need all 3 of your right defencemen to be PP guys. I do believe the third needs to put some fear in opposing forwards when they skate down the left wing, that there is a defenceman who patrols that side of the ice, ready to hit them into next week, ala Emelin. Not to mention that Emelin, Gorges, Spacek all played on the right side as well. On the flip side however our best d-prospects coming up are all left handed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Not to mention that Emelin, Gorges, Spacek all played on the right side as well. On the flip side however our best d-prospects coming up are all left handed. Our best two... in Tinordi and Beaulieu. Which is fine, because with Tinordi's presence on the Left side... you can flip Emelin to the right side and have that internal balance of having the one scary hitter on the left in Tinordi (eventually, I know) and Emelin on the right. Its also good that they are on the left, because most of our aging defencemen are on that side, and the young D on the team are all on the right. Or both (Emelin, Gorges). For the rest of our defensive prospects... you have Bennett on the left side, and everyone else on the right (Ellis, Pateryn, Dietz, Nygren, etc...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Apart from Ellis, Beaulieu and Tinordi how many have a legitimate shot though? Still agree that right now they are the ones that need change but there is not much coming in the pipeline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Not to mention that Emelin, Gorges, Spacek all played on the right side as well. On the flip side however our best d-prospects coming up are all left handed. Yeah, I'm not convinced we have a problem on defence, other than the injury one. And even then, the one major benefit of Martin's coaching style is that the team plays this collapsable style that tends to minimize even our weakest defenders mistakes. (Plus, we have Price who often cleans up our messes.) As a top-four later in the season, I'm not sure the league has much better to offer than Markov (assuming health, of course), Subban, Gorges, and Emelin (and no, I'm not saying they're the *best*). After that you still have Spacek and Gill, both of whom have their place as #6/7 guys playing limited minutes. Then you have the unknown Campoli-factor, who could well come in and play like his Chicago days. And finally you have the Swiss pair who would be well-insulated under the top-four mentioned. Add Tinordi and Beaulieu coming through the system, and defence is the least of our worries. Apart from Ellis, Beaulieu and Tinordi how many have a legitimate shot though? Still agree that right now they are the ones that need change but there is not much coming in the pipeline. How many need a shot? If two of those three make it, then you're talking about replacing two guys in two years or so. I'm not sure this defence needs that much turnover. If you draft well, you don't have to have a huge pipeline of players. Montreal actually has the depth to use some of these assets to supplement other areas. Honestly, IMO this is the best the Habs defence has looked in a very, very long time. Yes, we have injuries, but we can deal with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Apart from Ellis, Beaulieu and Tinordi how many have a legitimate shot though? Still agree that right now they are the ones that need change but there is not much coming in the pipeline. Dietz is having a fantastic season in the WHL. Pateryn and Bennett at Michigan both look good as well. Didier and Sullivan; I can't get a read on (haven't seen them play much). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Pateryn and bennett my guess will be the next level of guys like St-Denis or Nash. Called upon when needed for emergency but ultimately AHL players. D still looks good with Subban, Gorges, Emelin, Beaulieu, Tinordi. Good mix of many elements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Pateryn and bennett my guess will be the next level of guys like St-Denis or Nash. Called upon when needed for emergency but ultimately AHL players. D still looks good with Subban, Gorges, Emelin, Beaulieu, Tinordi. Good mix of many elements. that sounds ralistic, but as you point out there are 5 guys ahead of them that you listed, plus diaz. If they are only 7/8 dmen it doesn't hurt, we don't need to count on them for more. There are a ton of these guys though, and 1 might surprise and develop into a regular. Law of averages with so many back there means there is a decent chance of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 that sounds ralistic, but as you point out there are 5 guys ahead of them that you listed, plus diaz. If they are only 7/8 dmen it doesn't hurt, we don't need to count on them for more. There are a ton of these guys though, and 1 might surprise and develop into a regular. Law of averages with so many back there means there is a decent chance of that. I have absolutely no issue trading either one. We have Spacek and Campoli this year. Next season might just see Beaulieu as part of this team because he excelled during camp even though he has struggled quite a bit this year. Maybe we'll see Tinordi on the team as a late call up next season as well who knows. All i ask for this year is a simple change of philosophy and to get a bit more rugged. I would love to see us acquire a good 3rd line rw who can play with moen and Eller as a shut down line. And then build not a goon line but a tough line that will throw their weight around. Get a few guys who';ll go around and create some buzz in the building. Look at home players are aware of Emelin out there....he's keeping them on their toes. We need some forwards who can do the same. Oreskovick, Darryl Powe, Some guys like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I have absolutely no issue trading either one. We have Spacek and Campoli this year. Next season might just see Beaulieu as part of this team because he excelled during camp even though he has struggled quite a bit this year. Maybe we'll see Tinordi on the team as a late call up next season as well who knows. All i ask for this year is a simple change of philosophy and to get a bit more rugged. I would love to see us acquire a good 3rd line rw who can play with moen and Eller as a shut down line. And then build not a goon line but a tough line that will throw their weight around. Get a few guys who';ll go around and create some buzz in the building. Look at home players are aware of Emelin out there....he's keeping them on their toes. We need some forwards who can do the same. Oreskovick, Darryl Powe, Some guys like this. I agree with the ruggedness being necessary... Which is one of the reasons I don't like Diaz and Weber both on the club going forward. I think that fighting is a dead part of the game, but we certainly need more hitting which right now only cole, emelin, moen, and Kostitsyn seem to provide. A guy who is a big hitter would make our team much harder to play against, which they aren't right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I agree with the ruggedness being necessary... Which is one of the reasons I don't like Diaz and Weber both on the club going forward. I think that fighting is a dead part of the game, but we certainly need more hitting which right now only cole, emelin, moen, and Kostitsyn seem to provide. A guy who is a big hitter would make our team much harder to play against, which they aren't right now. We still need that element of fighting though. Not a fighter, not a goon but he need someone who will drop the gloves when needed. We have a guy like that with Moen but I think we need someone like that on D and we need another forward. White will fit that role when he comes back but until then we need someone. Blunden has to be the guy or as I mentioned I would even bring in Schultz. I don't care that he only plays 4 minutes a game, I don't care if he's not ready, double shift other forwards and throw him out there every now and then.....ask him not to start anything in terms of a fight.....just hit, hit hit. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 We have Spacek and Campoli this year. Wow, they made a quick liar out of you with that trade! LOL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Wow, they made a quick liar out of you with that trade! LOL Indeed they did.....I apparently angered the Habs Gods. At least we have Gomez and Darche................................anyone? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Indeed they did.....I apparently angered the Habs Gods. At least we have Gomez and Darche................................anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Interesting to note that Kaberle was apparently a rumour the past couple of days - but not with Montreal. So maybe these Brassard/Semin rumours with other teams mean something else might happen in Montreal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Semin to the Habs for Gomez. Hahahah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Semin to the Habs for Gomez. Hahahah While far-fetched, it's not quite as far-fetched as it once was. There have been rumours all year from Washington that they'd do just about anything to get him out of the city. He's apparently not so good in the dressing room to go along with his sorry-ass displays on the ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 We'd pretty much have to take that deal. It's an expiring contract, versus on with two extra years left. I thought, until yesterday, that teams valued expiring contracts to some degree, but not PG I guess. Hopefully other GMs think like him. It'll never happen though. (hope for a reverse jynx here.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 More rumours about Stastny being on the market, and while it can be hard to believe, the bottom line is that his name has been mentioned too much in the last year for there to be nothing to it. I would guess that Gauthier is probably kicking the tires to see what's happening with that angle. Also, with the Habs defence coming healthy, there may be increasing talk of a trade for someone here. A group of teams have been nosing around Montreal (apparently) and another group of teams have defensive needs. One of the rumours I heard included talk of the Hawks and the Caps. Yzerman was in Jersey yesterday, I believe. With Montreal tickling LTIR in terms of cap space, there's a good chance something may happen sooner rather than later. While Ek usually doesn't have a whole lot of interesting to say, his comment that Montreal may make a move by the end of the week could actually bear some fruit this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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