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53 minutes ago, Scott462 said:

While I was watching hockey night in Canada the team just mentioned that there is a rumour that Montreal is interested in moving Pacioretty for a top 4 defensemen.

 

no thats not what they said.

 

They were clear that they haven't heard any rumors on Pacioretty. 

 

They said Therrien was not using Pacioretty as much as in previous years and was not using him on the first line.  Then Kelly Hrudey speculated (his own speculation, not based on any  inside info) that if this continued, the Habs might try to move Pacioretty for something, possibly a top 4 defenceman. 

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1 minute ago, Commandant said:

 

no thats not what they said.

 

They were clear that they haven't heard any rumors on Pacioretty. 

 

They said Therrien was not using Pacioretty as much as in previous years and was not using him on the first line.  Then Kelly Hrudey speculated (his own speculation, not based on any  inside info) that if this continued, the Habs might try to move Pacioretty for something, possibly a top 4 defenceman. 

 

Thanks for the correction.

 

I kind of half heard what he said while I was sitting down to eat and just heard the last part. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, JMMR said:

Wish that trade would`ve happened.

Habs would be a much better team today. 

 

How would the Habs be a better team? Just about every single decent line we've had in the last few years (for more than 2-3 games) were the ones Pacioretty was playing on, the only exception would be the Galchenyuk-Eller-Gallagher line at the very end of the shortened season. Otherwise Plekanec, Desharnais, Gallager, or even Weise would boost their stats playing with Pacioretty, and pretty much disappear on other lines. I don't see how Wayne Simmonds would do better than that, or come even close to that kind of impact where most of the offense would have rested on his shoulders.  

 

Then of course there's the pick... we can wish Montreal would have selected Domi or Wennberg (the only players that would make this trade not look like a steal for the Flyers) however from what has been said, Montreal was extremely high on Samuel Morin, and would most likely have drafted him at 13rd overall as well. It's still early, but so far Morin looks more like a Tinordi-type player, at best a huge bottom pairing defense-only defenseman who sruggles to put up any points even at the AHL level. 

 

So even looking at this today : Pacioretty for Simmons and Morin?  Non merci ... although for the Flyers Pacioretty could look really good playing with Giroux and Voracek! 

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1 hour ago, JMMR said:

Wish that trade would`ve happened.

Habs would be a much better team today. 

 

Depends on what they used the pick on.  If they took Max Domi, then yes, they'd be better. 

 

If they picked Sam Morin... we'd be about the same.  A little tougher, a little less skilled. 

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On 19/12/2016 at 3:38 PM, CerebusClone said:

 

How would the Habs be a better team? Just about every single decent line we've had in the last few years (for more than 2-3 games) were the ones Pacioretty was playing on, the only exception would be the Galchenyuk-Eller-Gallagher line at the very end of the shortened season. Otherwise Plekanec, Desharnais, Gallager, or even Weise would boost their stats playing with Pacioretty, and pretty much disappear on other lines. I don't see how Wayne Simmonds would do better than that, or come even close to that kind of impact where most of the offense would have rested on his shoulders.  

 

Then of course there's the pick... we can wish Montreal would have selected Domi or Wennberg (the only players that would make this trade not look like a steal for the Flyers) however from what has been said, Montreal was extremely high on Samuel Morin, and would most likely have drafted him at 13rd overall as well. It's still early, but so far Morin looks more like a Tinordi-type player, at best a huge bottom pairing defense-only defenseman who sruggles to put up any points even at the AHL level. 

 

So even looking at this today : Pacioretty for Simmons and Morin?  Non merci ... although for the Flyers Pacioretty could look really good playing with Giroux and Voracek! 

Tremendous response and you make some excellent points.

However I believe the Habs team with Patch gone and Simmonds in makes the Habs a far better and tougher playoff opponent. 

 

We shall never know. And your point about who they use the pick on is also very important as that could be the deal breaker. 

 

I do agree that Max would look excellent with Claude and Voracek 

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20 hours ago, JMMR said:

Tremendous response and you make some excellent points.

However I believe the Habs team with Patch gone and Simmonds in makes the Habs a far better and tougher playoff opponent. 

 

We shall never know. And your point about who they use the pick on is also very important as that could be the deal breaker. 

 

I do agree that Max would look excellent with Claude and Voracek 

 

You know, you have to factor that in. Say for the sake of argument Patches becomes a PPG guy on that line, maybe even a 45-plus goal scorer. Then we get a generation of Habs fans howling that we traded the guy away, even if the return is solid; and unless we draft Domi, the trade becomes a disaster.

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21 hours ago, JMMR said:

Tremendous response and you make some excellent points.

However I believe the Habs team with Patch gone and Simmonds in makes the Habs a far better and tougher playoff opponent. 

 

SImmonds is definitely more physical than Pacioretty, although Max does bring a good physical presence on the ice with his size and speed, however I'm not sure that would translate into making the team better in the playoffs. Simmonds has not had more success in the playoffs, and while Pacioretty's production has declined a bit in the playoffs so far, I would give him the benefit of the doubt right now, and point the finger more towards his centers who completely disappeared every year.

 

Same for Gallagher, we see him as a warrior and playoff-type player, and yet his production in the playoffs has been average at best. Again it's difficult to produce offense when your center, the guy who is supposed to be controlling the play and generating scoring chances, is doing a great impersonation of the Bermuda Triangle for pucks. 

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1 hour ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

You know, you have to factor that in. Say for the sake of argument Patches becomes a PPG guy on that line, maybe even a 45-plus goal scorer. Then we get a generation of Habs fans howling that we traded the guy away, even if the return is solid; and unless we draft Domi, the trade becomes a disaster.

 

If we are going to play with hypothetical situations at least be realistic. 

 

Pacioretty is an inconsistent player. Put him with Gretzky and Kurri in their prime and he's still going to have his off games. That's perfectly okay, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking Pacioretty would become an Ovechkin/Stamkos level goal scorer just because he's now fed by Giroux. Giroux and Voracek have their inconsistencies as well. This is why everyone thought Kessel would just become a 90 point guy with Crosby and it turned out his game wasn't compatible with Sid or Evgeni. Hockey is more complex than that. 

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2 hours ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

You know, you have to factor that in. Say for the sake of argument Patches becomes a PPG guy on that line, maybe even a 45-plus goal scorer. Then we get a generation of Habs fans howling that we traded the guy away, even if the return is solid; and unless we draft Domi, the trade becomes a disaster.

 

Exactly. John LeClair all over again.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

If we are going to play with hypothetical situations at least be realistic. 

 

Pacioretty is an inconsistent player. Put him with Gretzky and Kurri in their prime and he's still going to have his off games. That's perfectly okay, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking Pacioretty would become an Ovechkin/Stamkos level goal scorer just because he's now fed by Giroux. Giroux and Voracek have their inconsistencies as well. This is why everyone thought Kessel would just become a 90 point guy with Crosby and it turned out his game wasn't compatible with Sid or Evgeni. Hockey is more complex than that. 

Kessel still has been a strong acquisition for the Pens, one of their best players last year in the playoffs, and still a pretty strong season so far this year. I understand what you mean though, if a guy like Kunitz can look like a star player playing with Crosby, one could assume Kessel's production would skyrocket to the 100+ point mark!

 

You are right, but with two guys like Giroux and Voracek who are such great passers while also able to finish plays - and who are still very responsible defensively - I would tend to think that with Pacioretty this line could hurt the other team in so many ways. 

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59 minutes ago, Machine of Loving Grace said:

 

Pacioretty is an inconsistent player.  

 

Exactly.

 

This narrative that he will never be good in the playoffs, is just that, a narrative. 

 

Unfortunately he hasn't been good so far, doesn't mean that he won't be in the future. 

 

He's a streaky scorer, unfortunately he's hit some cold streaks at the wrong time for us. 

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Who isn't inconsistent on the scoresheet? The very top, exceptional players manage to avoid unproductive streaks for the most part, but even Sidney Crosby goes into the occasional slump. Kane is having another pretty solid year, but at some point he went 1G 3A in 7 games with a -7. Tarasenko had a similar sequence with no goal, only 3 assists, and a -3 in 7 games earlier this season. And these are guys with strong supporting cast around them. 

 

In the case of Pacioretty he is known more as a shooter - although his overall game is stronger than we give him credit for - and he has never really had a strong offensive center to help him avoid these type of slumps. Over the last few years whenever Pacioretty cooled down a little, which happens to all players, his line would just be completely silenced because his teammates, like Desharnais and Gallagher, relied mostly on him for their production. 

 

One guy I like to compare Pacioretty to is Jamie Benn. Before 2013 Benn was a very good player for Dallas, a leader on those teams, and a guy collecting his 60-65 points. Up to that point both had about the same age and similar production. Then Dallas acquired Tyler Seguin, and that pair has been amazing ever since, it gave Benn the support he needed. If Benn is having an off night, he can still collect a point here and there because his teammate can pull his own, and vice and versa. So both guys are able to go through a season collecting points pretty consistently. That can be the difference between a 60-65 point season versus a 75-85+ point season. 

 

Unless you are Sidney Crosby, it's very difficult to avoid scoring slumps when you are plying with guys like Desharnais, Gallagher, Plekanec, Weise, etc. Especially in the playoffs, Desharnais just loses all effectiveness and can't even remotely approach the net, while Plekanec becomes a unidimensional defensive specialist. 

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4 minutes ago, Commandant said:

I think if a line is unproductive, its not just the fault of the centre, and not just the fault of the winger either. 

I fully agree, a lack of production can come from multiple sources, including forwards, defensemen, lack of preparation, poor coaching strategies, etc. Every case is different, and you need to analyze the play in the ice... statistics are just an indication, and don't tell the whole story.

 

Still individually I do remember Gallagher doing his thing, being a pest around the net, and trying to position himself to jump of loose pucks. I also remember Pacioretty playing a game similar to what he does during the regular season. The big difference in my opinion from regular season to the playoffs was Desharnais not being able to do much in the playoffs' increased intensity, tighter defensive play, increased tolerance from referees for interference, and too often just ending up in the corner on his ass or losing the puck after failing to see an opening (and yes here that is also his teammates responsibility to find ways to make themselves available for a pass). Too often plays just seemed to die whenever he carrying the puck. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

From Elliotte Friedman:

 

Quote

11. Jamie Oleksiak’s injury lowered the chances Dallas makes a defensive move for the time being, since the Stars dropped from eight defencemen to seven. Montreal GM Marc Bergevin was in Chicago when the Blackhawks acquired Johnny Oduya, and I always look for tie-ins like that. (Oduya was hurt during Tuesday’s win over the Rangers. An update is expected Wednesday.) Montreal supersnoop Eric Engels suspects the Canadiens and Ducks have been talking, and some of that dates back to last season. What is true is Montreal’s been scouting Anaheim quite a bit. We’ll see.

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-canadian-team-land-kevin-shattenkirk/

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Habs have been scouting Anaheim heavily and everyone has noticed. Two top teams in their own division trading means neither team is going to take a discount, which is probably why it has been so long of a negotiation. Ducks have been good defensive and the best at the faceoff dot but probably want to shoot the puck more and score more goals. They want to move Bieksa but they are very close to a serious logjam on the left defence:

 

Fowler

Lindholm

Despres

Stoner

Theodore

 

Theo is young but playing well. Doubt he moves. Lindholm is having a down year and is usually a 30 point defenceman. Also young so I don't know if Anaheim is ready to give up on him. Despres just signed a long term deal and has been hurt all year. French Canadian kid so you know how the media acts about that. Clayton Stoner is also hurt and is a big kid who doesn't put up many points. Cam Fowler has one year left at $4M so he's priced right and everyone wants him around the league with his high scoring as of late but Anaheim ain't giving him up for Beaulieu and picks. They want a forward who shoots and scores. 

 

I'm sure this is Bergevin's dilemma. He wants Fowler but Fowler is gonna cost Brendan Gallagher. He'd consider Lindholm but that's a big money investment. Despres and Stoner aren't very much in terms of scorers and Theodore is probably not on the block. Do you add Kevin Bieksa and just push Petry to the left side again? Tough to say.

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Guest Stogey24

Like I said before.   A deal was almost done with Beaulieu and a pick for fowler in the off season. Take that as you will, but it's credible 

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