Permanent Rumour Thread

[Habsy]

I hate to say, because I prefer continuity, but all this may be the final chapter in Bob's story with the Canadiens. He can't let Pleks walk next summer, it doesn't appear we can afford him, and if he trades him, he'll be trading a player in the top ten in scoring. As a result, he has to slam it out of the park, and get somebody great in return. Same goes for Halak, as each save is made, Halak's value appears to rise, maybe not to other GM's, but to fans/media of the team. So, if he trades Halak, he's gotta get a great return, or he'll be Mike Milbury 2.0 around here. And to a lesser extent, how can we lose M.A. Bergeron at this point? A howitzer from the point, 4 game winning goals, more points than Mark Streit, Dion Phaneuf and Shea Weber. Plus a seemingly great attitude with his versatility. And he's Quebecois as well. I don't see this ending well. Unless grandpa Kovalchuk used to sit little Ilya on his knee in front of a fire and talk about the great Montreal Canadiens, and Ilya wants to come here to join Markov of course, ok, that's enough dreaming.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Habsy

[Wamsley01]

But Wamsley, Tomas Plekanec DID NOT COME FROM the OHL or the NCAA. He came from the considerably stronger Extraliga, playing regular shifts against 30 year olds when he was 18. Europeans tend to mature later than North Americans as a result of this.

Anyways, he's also been killing penalties since year 2 in the AHL (not sure about year 1 when he was stuck playing 3rd line on a ridiculously deep AHL squad), and has currently logged the 4th most minutes shorthanded in the NHL amongst forwards... while the PK unit he leads is 7th in the entire league.

Tomas is becoming a TWO-way force. It's not just about his offensive comparables.

Two months ago this board labeled him as done and he was struggling as a 2nd line centre, now people are comparing

him to Marc Savard, Jeff Carter and Mike Cammalleri. These guys have been dominant scorers for the majority

of their careers. They are a different type player, a different class of player.

This is the same nonsense that mislabeled Chris Higgins career in 2006. He was drafted as a defensive forward

who had the ability to score with strong leadership skills, 2 hot months miscast him as a potential 40-goal scorer,

a label he struggled to live up to for 3 seasons leading to his eventual Montreal demise.

If you want to bust out the 2-way value card, then bring up the names of Pavel Datysuk and Henrik Sedin

to make your points. Bring up Olli Jokinen as a guy who had a down year and responded with strong offensive seasons,

not Cammalleri, a guy who dominated multiple levels before his one blip. Not offensive minded forwards whose

greatest attribute is their scoring ability.

If you could guarantee me that Plekanec would maintain this level of play for the next 5 years, sign me up.

None of you even knew he had this in him just 30 days ago, so sorry, I am not projecting this out for the rest of

his career.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Wamsley01

[v-hab]

I can't help but wonder if indeed Laraque's NMC extended into this season - I reported what I could confirm in the CBA FAQ thread with regards to his NTC, but I never did confirm for sure that his NMC expired after last season. If the NMC is still there, he can't be waived (simply put), which might explain why it hasn't happened yet. Health is also a factor, I don't think Laraque can pass a physical anymore, which means he can claim he's injured, nullifying any demotion attempt - and quash any buyout attempt in the offseason.

You most likely have the same report I have. as I read it, The NMC was only in 08/09. As for the state of his health, I have no idea.

"Georges Laraque, MTL - NTC [full NMC for 2008-09; after July 1, 2009 Laraque names six (6) teams in both the Eastern Conference and Western Conference that he will accept a trade to]"

[dlbalr]

You most likely have the same report I have. as I read it, The NMC was only in 08/09. As for the state of his health, I have no idea.

"Georges Laraque, MTL - NTC [full NMC for 2008-09; after July 1, 2009 Laraque names six (6) teams in both the Eastern Conference and Western Conference that he will accept a trade to]"

That looks like the wording of the online listing I read, my contacts have suggested it may not be the case (some say yes, some no). It's not like there's a long list of suitors either way for him.

[hab29RETIRED]

Two months ago this board labeled him as done and he was struggling as a 2nd line centre, now people are comparing

him to Marc Savard, Jeff Carter and Mike Cammalleri. These guys have been dominant scorers for the majority

of their careers. They are a different type player, a different class of player.

This is the same nonsense that mislabeled Chris Higgins career in 2006. He was drafted as a defensive forward

who had the ability to score with strong leadership skills, 2 hot months miscast him as a potential 40-goal scorer,

a label he struggled to live up to for 3 seasons leading to his eventual Montreal demise.

If you want to bust out the 2-way value card, then bring up the names of Pavel Datysuk and Henrik Sedin

to make your points. Bring up Olli Jokinen as a guy who had a down year and responded with strong offensive seasons,

not Cammalleri, a guy who dominated multiple levels before his one blip. Not offensive minded forwards whose

greatest attribute is their scoring ability.

If you could guarantee me that Plekanec would maintain this level of play for the next 5 years, sign me up.

None of you even knew he had this in him just 30 days ago, so sorry, I am not projecting this out for the rest of

his career.

You are using stats to over simply a players production at 24 and using stats the same way you warned against doing in another thread.

You also can't go strictly by draft position and world junior/minor league success for projecting a players potential - that's the biggest gripe I have from those who use draft position in the Price vs. Halak arguement (For the record, I'd rather let the hot hand play and let results determine who is #1). There was another little czech goalie that Chicago traded in the 90's that ended up becoming a much better goalie then the guy he was backing up.

The draft can be a crap shoot. From the 1998 and 1999 draft, who would you rather have the #1 picks or Datysuk (6th round 98) and Zetterberg (7th round 99)??? yes I know most people on this site would take Lecavalier, the big French-Canadian hope (who doesn't look like he ever wanted anything to do with playing in Montreal). Sorry, if I had to pick, I'll take Datysuk. Love Lecavlier, but Datysuk has been MUCH more consistent and is MUCH more of a complete player. In 1999 Patrick Stefan, the Sedin sisters, Pavel Brendal and Tim COnnelly were in the top 5 and, quite honestly, there isn't even a player in the first round that can be compard to Zetterberg and Havlet was probably the best player picked in the first round (#26).

Same thing for the size argument. Yes, I'd finally like to see a big centre in Montreal, but if Datysuk or Savard were available, I wouldn't be turning them down. I'd take either of them over the guy in SJ (Marleau) that everyone has had the hots for.

Two years ago the leafs turned DOWN the flyers for Carter, which in my opinion was a dumb move, but there was a lot of questions surrounding Carter as little as a year ago. This year, Carter is experiencing what Pleks experienced last year. High expectations for the whole team and the team is sucking and Carter like the team has regressed. Not quite as bad as Pleks did last year, but then he is surrounded by a lot more talent then Pleks ever had.

As you said in another post, you can make the stats support whatever arguement you want. Lets look at at when most players tend to break out. Looking at the careers of Savard, Zetterberg and Datysuk, as examples, the break ou year tends to be around 26 to 28. Pleks who turned 27 this year is right on schedule - i dont see this as a fluke year.

Yes Carter had his breakout at 24, but lets face it, he was surrounded by a lot more talent then Pleks ever has and was immidiately but into an offensive role, where Pleks was pegged as a defensive player, with some offensive upside (as was Datysuk). However, Carter's breakout year, may not be his true breakout level that he is going to achieve on a consistent basis. His year last year could be similar to the Gomez and Gionta career years. So there is no gaurantee that Carter will be a dominent 85+ point centerman.

But stats don't tell the whole story regarding a players development. Unlike the red wings, flyers, bruins, devils and most of the other successful teams that make the playoffs on a consistent basis, the habs do a CRAPPY job of developing their talent. They try and force players in to positions that they aren't suited to (see Higgins), or push players too soon without preparing them so that they can succeed IN MONTREAL (See Ribeiro and Lats). I'm afraid that they are going to turn MaxPax into a "solid" 3rd liner instead of a legitimate top six forward. The fact that Pleks broke out THiS year then NEXT year when he would probably have left Montreal is a friggin miracle. That is why I think that even though MaxPax has played well enough to be on the 3rd line, I think if we want him to be a top six forward, he could benefit from going down to Hamilton and getting some confidence scoring and his finish around the net. Boucher is supposedly good with young players, so it probably woudn't hurt to have MaxPax under Boucher then have Martin turn MaxPax into a career 3rd liner playing with the likes of Metro and Moen.

Anyway, getting back to Pleks. All the players I've mentioned, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Savard, benefited by learning by guys who had success and talent (no need to list all of the red wings in a list that begins with Yzerman, Lidstrom, Shanahan). If you look at Savard, he really didn't have success until he got to centre a guy name Kovulchuk. Pleks, he was playing with 3rd/4th liners, or guys with lousy work ethic like Kovy. This year even before he was playing with Cammy he was producing with a revolving door of no name wingers. With Cammy and Ak46, the habs have a solid 1st line. Why break it up??? If anyone is going to be traded on that line, I'd rather move AK46, although, I'd like to see how he does from now to the end of the year, before trying to move him.

Lastly, PLeks, like Zetterburg and Datysuk also had to learn the North American game. That takes time to adjust. He is not backing down from physical play like he was when he made the famous playing like a girl comment. He goes hard to the net and battles hard against much bigger players.

I see Pleks being as valuable, as complete of a player as Zetterberg, Datysuk and Savard have managed to become, what worries me that it won't be in Montreal. And for the record, back in July that I hated the trade to bring Gomez to Montreal hated the Martin (I can't win in the playoffs) hiring, and then hated the Gionta signing back ($5M for a 50 point player - really don't care how much heart and soul he brings if he is only going to score 50-50 points for $5M).

This past summer I also said at that time that the habs should sign Pleks to a long term, while they are in a position of strength. Like my complaining about Gainey's other moves, i was heavily criticized my Pleks comments as well.

Pleks like higgins always impressed me with his work ethic and unlike Higgins, Pleks had showed that he had skill and really solid hockey sense. His problem was that he was stuck playing with one basket case in kovy and another guy still finding his way in AK46, and that couldn't have helped a guy who seemed to have issues with his own confidence. I think Higgins would have been a much better 3rd liner then Metro or Moen are if the Habs had kept grooming him as a solid two way player. But the habs do NOT know how to develop players, they don't do a good job in defining roles for players and helping them accept those roles.

Anyway, here are some stats for the number crunchers:

MARC SAVARD NHL Career

Age Yr gms pts +/-

20 97-98 28 6 -4

21 98-99 70 45 -7

22 99-00 78 53 -2

23 00-01 77 65 -12

24 01-02 56 33 -18

25 02-03 67 50 -14 split between thrashers/flames

26 03-04 45 52 -8

28 05-06 82 97 7

29 06-07 82 96 -19 1st yr bruins

30 07-08 74 78 3

31 08-09 82 88 25

-Was seen as a dressing room cancer in Calgary and a one dimensional player.

-dumped by rangers being labeled as selfish player

-Didn't really break out (Full year) until he was 28

-Really didn't become a complete player until he turned 30. Had his first big number year when he was 26 in a short season.

PLEKANEC - 2001 3rd round, 71 overall draft pick.

NHL Career

Age Yr gms pts +/-

21 03-04 2 0 0

23 05-06 67 29 4

24 06-07 81 47 10

25 07-08 81 69 15

26 08-09 80 39 -9

PLeks - really only had close to 4 complete years. Progressed every year in points, goals and +/- except for last year

-had solid career in the czech republic, had strong numbers in junior under 17 in the czeck repbulic and decent numbers in the czech leauge

-Really only got a chance to be in an offensive situation in 07-08 and was playing under shadow of Kovy. Last year played with the basket case Kovy. This is the FIRST oppertunity he had to lead the offense

-Has ALWAYS been a hard working guy who plays hard, if had a fault in the past it was confidence.

PAVEL DATSYUK - 1998 6th Round 171 overall

Age Yr gms pts +/-

23 01-02 70 35 4

24 02-03 64 51 20

25 03-04 75 68 -2

27 05-06 75 87 26

28 06-07 75 87 36

29 07-08 82 97 41

30 08-09 81 97 34

-LATE ROUND PICK, big break out year at 27.

-Luxery of playing for an organization that KNOWS how to develop their young players and had a chance to play behind Yzerman and winners like Lidstrom. Did not play with any head cases like Kovy.

HENRIK ZETTERBERG - 1999 7th Round Draft Pick 210th overall

NHL Career

Age Yr gms pts +/-

24 02-03 79 44 6

25 03-04 61 43 15

26 05-06 77 85 29

26 06-07 63 68 26

27 07-08 72 95 30

28 08-09 77 73 13

JEFF CARTER - 2003 1st round 10 overall

NHL Career

Age Yr gms pts +/-

21 05-06 81 42 10

22 06-07 62 37 -17

23 07-08 82 53 6

24 08-09 82 84 24

Edited December 23, 2009 by hab29RETIRED

[Zowpeb]

First, lets get Pleks signed.

Second, let's not lump him in with guys like Datsyuk, Savard, Zetterberg, etc...at least until he has 3 seasons of over 80 points. Christ, we're not even half way through this season, let's see if he can even do this for a full year first.

I think some chill pills are in order around here.

[Wamsley01]

You are using stats to over simply a players production at 24 and using stats the same way you warned against doing in another thread.

You also can't go strictly by draft position and world junior/minor league success for projecting a players potential - that's the biggest gripe I have from those who use draft position in the Price vs. Halak arguement (For the record, I'd rather let the hot hand play and let results determine who is #1). There was another little czech goalie that Chicago traded in the 90's that ended up becoming a much better goalie then the guy he was backing up.

The draft can be a crap shoot. From the 1998 and 1999 draft, who would you rather have the #1 picks or Datysuk (6th round 98) and Zetterberg (7th round 99)??? yes I know most people on this site would take Lecavalier, the big French-Canadian hope (who doesn't look like he ever wanted anything to do with playing in Montreal). Sorry, if I had to pick, I'll take Datysuk. Love Lecavlier, but Datysuk has been MUCH more consistent and is MUCH more of a complete player. In 1999 Patrick Stefan, the Sedin sisters, Pavel Brendal and Tim COnnelly were in the top 5 and, quite honestly, there isn't even a player in the first round that can be compard to Zetterberg and Havlet was probably the best player picked in the first round (#26).

Same thing for the size argument. Yes, I'd finally like to see a big centre in Montreal, but if Datysuk or Savard were available, I wouldn't be turning them down. I'd take either of them over the guy in SJ (Marleau) that everyone has had the hots for.

Two years ago the leafs turned DOWN the flyers for Carter, which in my opinion was a dumb move, but there was a lot of questions surrounding Carter as little as a year ago. This year, Carter is experiencing what Pleks experienced last year. High expectations for the whole team and the team is sucking and Carter like the team has regressed. Not quite as bad as Pleks did last year, but then he is surrounded by a lot more talent then Pleks ever had.

As you said in another post, you can make the stats support whatever arguement you want. Lets look at at when most players tend to break out. Looking at the careers of Savard, Zetterberg and Datysuk, as examples, the break ou year tends to be around 26 to 28. Pleks who turned 27 this year is right on schedule - i dont see this as a fluke year.

Yes Carter had his breakout at 24, but lets face it, he was surrounded by a lot more talent then Pleks ever has and was immidiately but into an offensive role, where Pleks was pegged as a defensive player, with some offensive upside (as was Datysuk). However, Carter's breakout year, may not be his true breakout level that he is going to achieve on a consistent basis. His year last year could be similar to the Gomez and Gionta career years. So there is no gaurantee that Carter will be a dominent 85+ point centerman.

But stats don't tell the whole story regarding a players development. Unlike the red wings, flyers, bruins, devils and most of the other successful teams that make the playoffs on a consistent basis, the habs do a CRAPPY job of developing their talent. They try and force players in to positions that they aren't suited to (see Higgins), or push players too soon without preparing them so that they can succeed IN MONTREAL (See Ribeiro and Lats). I'm afraid that they are going to turn MaxPax into a "solid" 3rd liner instead of a legitimate top six forward. The fact that Pleks broke out THiS year then NEXT year when he would probably have left Montreal is a friggin miracle. That is why I think that even though MaxPax has played well enough to be on the 3rd line, I think if we want him to be a top six forward, he could benefit from going down to Hamilton and getting some confidence scoring and his finish around the net. Boucher is supposedly good with young players, so it probably woudn't hurt to have MaxPax under Boucher then have Martin turn MaxPax into a career 3rd liner playing with the likes of Metro and Moen.

Anyway, getting back to Pleks. All the players I've mentioned, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Savard, benefited by learning by guys who had success and talent (no need to list all of the red wings in a list that begins with Yzerman, Lidstrom, Shanahan). If you look at Savard, he really didn't have success until he got to centre a guy name Kovulchuk. Pleks, he was playing with 3rd/4th liners, or guys with lousy work ethic like Kovy. This year even before he was playing with Cammy he was producing with a revolving door of no name wingers. With Cammy and Ak46, the habs have a solid 1st line. Why break it up??? If anyone is going to be traded on that line, I'd rather move AK46, although, I'd like to see how he does from now to the end of the year, before trying to move him.

Lastly, PLeks, like Zetterburg and Datysuk also had to learn the North American game. That takes time to adjust. He is not backing down from physical play like he was when he made the famous playing like a girl comment. He goes hard to the net and battles hard against much bigger players.

I see Pleks being as valuable, as complete of a player as Zetterberg, Datysuk and Savard have managed to become, what worries me that it won't be in Montreal. And for the record, back in July that I hated the trade to bring Gomez to Montreal hated the Martin (I can't win in the playoffs) hiring, and then hated the Gionta signing back ($5M for a 50 point player - really don't care how much heart and soul he brings if he is only going to score 50-50 points for $5M).

This past summer I also said at that time that the habs should sign Pleks to a long term, while they are in a position of strength. Like my complaining about Gainey's other moves, i was heavily criticized my Pleks comments as well.

Pleks like higgins always impressed me with his work ethic and unlike Higgins, Pleks had showed that he had skill and really solid hockey sense. His problem was that he was stuck playing with one basket case in kovy and another guy still finding his way in AK46, and that couldn't have helped a guy who seemed to have issues with his own confidence. I think Higgins would have been a much better 3rd liner then Metro or Moen are if the Habs had kept grooming him as a solid two way player. But the habs do NOT know how to develop players, they don't do a good job in defining roles for players and helping them accept those roles.

Anyway, here are some stats for the number crunchers:

MARC SAVARD NHL Career

Age Yr gms pts +/-

20 97-98 28 6 -4

21 98-99 70 45 -7

22 99-00 78 53 -2

23 00-01 77 65 -12

24 01-02 56 33 -18

25 02-03 67 50 -14 split between thrashers/flames

26 03-04 45 52 -8

28 05-06 82 97 7

29 06-07 82 96 -19 1st yr bruins

30 07-08 74 78 3

31 08-09 82 88 25

-Was seen as a dressing room cancer in Calgary and a one dimensional player.

-dumped by rangers being labeled as selfish player

-Didn't really break out (Full year) until he was 28

-Really didn't become a complete player until he turned 30. Had his first big number year when he was 26 in a short season.

PLEKANEC - 2001 3rd round, 71 overall draft pick.

NHL Career

Age Yr gms pts +/-

21 03-04 2 0 0

23 05-06 67 29 4

24 06-07 81 47 10

25 07-08 81 69 15

26 08-09 80 39 -9

PLeks - really only had close to 4 complete years. Progressed every year in points, goals and +/- except for last year

-had solid career in the czech republic, had strong numbers in junior under 17 in the czeck repbulic and decent numbers in the czech leauge

-Really only got a chance to be in an offensive situation in 07-08 and was playing under shadow of Kovy. Last year played with the basket case Kovy. This is the FIRST oppertunity he had to lead the offense

-Has ALWAYS been a hard working guy who plays hard, if had a fault in the past it was confidence.

PAVEL DATSYUK - 1998 6th Round 171 overall

Age Yr gms pts +/-

23 01-02 70 35 4

24 02-03 64 51 20

25 03-04 75 68 -2

27 05-06 75 87 26

28 06-07 75 87 36

29 07-08 82 97 41

30 08-09 81 97 34

-LATE ROUND PICK, big break out year at 27.

-Luxery of playing for an organization that KNOWS how to develop their young players and had a chance to play behind Yzerman and winners like Lidstrom. Did not play with any head cases like Kovy.

HENRIK ZETTERBERG - 1999 7th Round Draft Pick 210th overall

NHL Career

Age Yr gms pts +/-

24 02-03 79 44 6

25 03-04 61 43 15

26 05-06 77 85 29

26 06-07 63 68 26

27 07-08 72 95 30

28 08-09 77 73 13

JEFF CARTER - 2003 1st round 10 overall

NHL Career

Age Yr gms pts +/-

21 05-06 81 42 10

22 06-07 62 37 -17

23 07-08 82 53 6

24 08-09 82 84 24

You lost me after 3 paragraphs.

[hab29RETIRED]

You lost me after 3 paragraphs.

your loss

[Zowpeb]

your loss

Don't take this as a personal attack but your post was borderline ridiculous...comparing Pleks to proven stars, implying late round picks are better then top 5 picks, etc...everyone would love to get Pleks signed but let's not put him on a pedestal just yet.

[hab29RETIRED]

Don't take this as a personal attack but your post was borderline ridiculous...comparing Pleks to proven stars, implying late round picks are better then top 5 picks, etc...everyone would love to get Pleks signed but let's not put him on a pedestal just yet.

Are you going to argue that in the case of Zetterberg and Datysuk, they did not turn out to be better players then EVERY player picked in the first round of their draft years??? Or that Hasek turned out to be a much better goaltender then the ones that were drafted in the same year as him??? Luc Robitaille was drafted in the 9TH ROUND of the 1984 draft and the only 1st rounder that turned out to be a better player then him was Mario Lemeiux.

I'm not putting Pleks on a pedestal or saying that he will be as good as Zetterberg and Datsyuk, i'm responding to the riciciulous notion of comparing a players stats by age 24 and using that as a basis to say who will project as a better player. I'm simply showing that those two also broke out at the same age as Pleks is doing. Will Pleks be a consistent 85-100 point guy? Who knows. But I like the chance of him succeeding because even when he was struggling last year he still worked hard, played hard and still showed great hockey sense. His issue was confidence and it looks like he has put it together now.

Another guy I see who took the same timeline to develop is Savard. Unlike Pleks, when he was young, Savard was labelled a selfish, lazy player who couldn't be counted on in key situations and was only concerned about his stats. During his time in Calgary he was considered a cancer, the same way that Riberio was in Montreal.

I was arguing that there are other factors to consider:

-Using Carter's junior career/World junior career as a comparsion and dismissing Pleks European career without having followed Pleks junior/Czech league career is a convinient way to prop up Carter.

-You can't ignore that Pleks had to learn the North American Game that Carter grew up playing, or that Pleks like most Habs prospects wasn't really put into a position where he could show his offensive skills in the minors. A lot of European/russian players that are named Ovechkin/Malkin/Bure struggle when they first come to North America and take time to adjust.

-You also can't ignore that the for the last 15 years the Habs have developed a grand total of ZERO offensive players. Koivu is the only guy they drafted that was on track to be an offensive star until injuries derailed him, and even in his case, the habs had no role in his development coming into the NHL, as he spent the extra couple of years in Finland before making the jump. Unlike Zetterberg and Datysuk who had true professionals and warriors like Yzerman, Lidstrom and Shanahan to mentor him, the habs handed Pleks to a basket case like Kovy who only shows up when he wants.

-Ignoring that the Flyers are going through EXACTLY the same time of situation as the habs did last year, and that Carter up to now has regressed is also convienient in bringing up Pleks struggles last year. And unlike Pleks, Carter is surrounded by MUCH better players then Pleks was last year.

If i'm going to judge a player, i'm going to do it based on how he has progressed - which doesn't necessairly mean stats alone - you have to consider their entire game. Pleks alleged weakness was that as a small guy, when he is against phyiscal play, he backs down and stays around the perimeter. As i've alredy mentioned, I see the issue he had was more to do with a lack of confidence then a willingness to compete. He always showed great hockey sense, good passing skills and a blue collar work ethic. The guy never quits. In the flyers and bruins series, even when the series were over, you could see he still put in the effort. Issue was he was lacking in confidence, so he wasn't getting results. This year, he is battling and just looking at today's game, a few times he went in the corner alone with two bigger Canes and came out with the puck and made a play. He is driving hard to the net and finally has the confidence in himself.

Also Wamsley's comparsion of him to Blake is unfair. It's one thing to have a flukey year goal scoring, where everything you touch goes in, its another thing to be able to make see and eye and saucer passes tape to tape on a consistent basis. There is NO ONE on the habs whose passing skills can touch pleks. Not the so-called 1st line $7M playmaker Gomez, and not even cammelleri ( who is a great offensive talent), but he can't make those in the air saucer passes that land on the stick like Pleks has been doing all year.

There is NO WAY we are going to get equal value if we trade Pleks and WE WILL regret it, because if you look at his two way game, I think the best comparasions are Zetterberg, Datysuk and Savard. Is there anyone else up to this point in the year that isn't a lock for the Selke as Pleks has been???? He plays the PP, 5-6 minutes a game on the PK and over 20 minutes a game.

Similarily with Halak, I'd rather we keep him to the end of the year. Given Gainey's track record all he is going to get is a 2nd/3rd round pick for him and then have to pick up another backup. I certainly don't want to trade Pleks AND Halak to a conference rival. IF we do wait to the summer and hang on to Halak, if someone tenders an offer sheet to Halak, the Habs will get a better return. Moreover, it will give more time to assess which goalie the habs should keep.

-IF you want to look at World Junior goalie stars, how do the careers of Trevor Kidd compare to the guys picked behind them (Brodeur/Potvin)

-Whose a better goalie the 1st rounder Tom Barrasso (picked #5 like Price) or the Dominic Hasek (picked 199 in the 10th round??)

I have no preference right now between Halak and Price, but don't want to make a move right now when we don't have to. I wouldn't mind a move packging Halak or Price if it allows us to pick up another centre, IF the centre we include is Gomez, but I don't want to move Pleks and Halak and regret both moves.

If i'm in Gainey's position, I would sign Pleks and find a way to unload Gomez's salary, even if it means eating it in the minors (NJ has used this approach masterfully to get out of their bad signings).

I would wait and let Halak and Price fight it out until the end of the year. As i've said, the only way I'd move Halak is if I could dump a salary like Gomez and bring in another centre or a stud D-man.

Edited December 24, 2009 by hab29RETIRED

[thib46]

Are you going to argue that in the case of Zetterberg and Datysuk, they did not turn out to be better players then EVERY player picked in the first round of their draft years??? Or that Hasek turned out to be a much better goaltender then the ones that were drafted in the same year as him??? Luc Robitaille was drafted in the 9TH ROUND of the 1984 draft and the only 1st rounder that turned out to be a better player then him was Mario Lemeiux.

I'm not putting Pleks on a pedestal or saying that he will be as good as Zetterberg and Datsyuk, i'm responding to the riciciulous notion of comparing a players stats by age 24 and using that as a basis to say who will project as a better player. I'm simply showing that those two also broke out at the same age as Pleks is doing. Will Pleks be a consistent 85-100 point guy? Who knows. But I like the chance of him succeeding because even when he was struggling last year he still worked hard, played hard and still showed great hockey sense. His issue was confidence and it looks like he has put it together now.

Another guy I see who took the same timeline to develop is Savard. Unlike Pleks, when he was young, Savard was labelled a selfish, lazy player who couldn't be counted on in key situations and was only concerned about his stats. During his time in Calgary he was considered a cancer, the same way that Riberio was in Montreal.

I was arguing that there are other factors to consider:

-Using Carter's junior career/World junior career as a comparsion and dismissing Pleks European career without having followed Pleks junior/Czech league career is a convinient way to prop up Carter.

-You can't ignore that Pleks had to learn the North American Game that Carter grew up playing, or that Pleks like most Habs prospects wasn't really put into a position where he could show his offensive skills in the minors. A lot of European/russian players that are named Ovechkin/Malkin/Bure struggle when they first come to North America and take time to adjust.

-You also can't ignore that the for the last 15 years the Habs have developed a grand total of ZERO offensive players. Koivu is the only guy they drafted that was on track to be an offensive star until injuries derailed him, and even in his case, the habs had no role in his development coming into the NHL, as he spent the extra couple of years in Finland before making the jump. Unlike Zetterberg and Datysuk who had true professionals and warriors like Yzerman, Lidstrom and Shanahan to mentor him, the habs handed Pleks to a basket case like Kovy who only shows up when he wants.

-Ignoring that the Flyers are going through EXACTLY the same time of situation as the habs did last year, and that Carter up to now has regressed is also convienient in bringing up Pleks struggles last year. And unlike Pleks, Carter is surrounded by MUCH better players then Pleks was last year.

If i'm going to judge a player, i'm going to do it based on how he has progressed - which doesn't necessairly mean stats alone - you have to consider their entire game. Pleks alleged weakness was that as a small guy, when he is against phyiscal play, he backs down and stays around the perimeter. As i've alredy mentioned, I see the issue he had was more to do with a lack of confidence then a willingness to compete. He always showed great hockey sense, good passing skills and a blue collar work ethic. The guy never quits. In the flyers and bruins series, even when the series were over, you could see he still put in the effort. Issue was he was lacking in confidence, so he wasn't getting results. This year, he is battling and just looking at today's game, a few times he went in the corner alone with two bigger Canes and came out with the puck and made a play. He is driving hard to the net and finally has the confidence in himself.

Also Wamsley's comparsion of him to Blake is unfair. It's one thing to have a flukey year goal scoring, where everything you touch goes in, its another thing to be able to make see and eye and saucer passes tape to tape on a consistent basis. There is NO ONE on the habs whose passing skills can touch pleks. Not the so-called 1st line $7M playmaker Gomez, and not even cammelleri ( who is a great offensive talent), but he can't make those in the air saucer passes that land on the stick like Pleks has been doing all year.

There is NO WAY we are going to get equal value if we trade Pleks and WE WILL regret it, because if you look at his two way game, I think the best comparasions are Zetterberg, Datysuk and Savard. Is there anyone else up to this point in the year that isn't a lock for the Selke as Pleks has been???? He plays the PP, 5-6 minutes a game on the PK and over 20 minutes a game.

Similarily with Halak, I'd rather we keep him to the end of the year. Given Gainey's track record all he is going to get is a 2nd/3rd round pick for him and then have to pick up another backup. I certainly don't want to trade Pleks AND Halak to a conference rival. IF we do wait to the summer and hang on to Halak, if someone tenders an offer sheet to Halak, the Habs will get a better return. Moreover, it will give more time to assess which goalie the habs should keep.

-IF you want to look at World Junior goalie stars, how do the careers of Trevor Kidd compare to the guys picked behind them (Brodeur/Potvin)

-Whose a better goalie the 1st rounder Tom Barrasso (picked #5 like Price) or the Dominic Hasek (picked 199 in the 10th round??)

I have no preference right now between Halak and Price, but don't want to make a move right now when we don't have to. I wouldn't mind a move packging Halak or Price if it allows us to pick up another centre, IF the centre we include is Gomez, but I don't want to move Pleks and Halak and regret both moves.

If i'm in Gainey's position, I would sign Pleks and find a way to unload Gomez's salary, even if it means eating it in the minors (NJ has used this approach masterfully to get out of their bad signings).

I would wait and let Halak and Price fight it out until the end of the year. As i've said, the only way I'd move Halak is if I could dump a salary like Gomez and bring in another centre or a stud D-man.

I enjoy the posts but I do believe some of the posts are way too long. I would suggest most readers are moving on to another post after one paragraph. The ideas are good but your readers are probably gone before the end of your posts. The most important part of any article should be the first sentence/paragraph. I still read these posts but my eyes are getting tired.

[BCHabnut]

I enjoy the posts but I do believe some of the posts are way too long. I would suggest most readers are moving on to another post after one paragraph. The ideas are good but your readers are probably gone before the end of your posts. The most important part of any article should be the first sentence/paragraph. I still read these posts but my eyes are getting tired.

That's what i did. i didnt even read your whole post. hahahaha i'm way too lazy to read a six page post.

[Habitforming]

If i'm in Gainey's position, I would sign Pleks and find a way to unload Gomez's salary, even if it means eating it in the minors (NJ has used this approach masterfully to get out of their bad signings).

I shortened your post some, so for that I'm sorry, but....

This concept is all but a gaurantee to make no NHL UFA sign here. Think of the image that portrays by sending a player as respected as Gomez to the farm for cap reasons (When we have no one to spend it on anyway). How quickly we forget that the one and ONLY reason Gionta, Cammalleri, and others signed was because Gomez was here already.

[hab29RETIRED]

I shortened your post some, so for that I'm sorry, but....

This concept is all but a gaurantee to make no NHL UFA sign here. Think of the image that portrays by sending a player as respected as Gomez to the farm for cap reasons (When we have no one to spend it on anyway). How quickly we forget that the one and ONLY reason Gionta, Cammalleri, and others signed was because Gomez was here already.

That's the biggest load of crock I've heard. Dumping bad trade or UFA pickups or trying to trying to force guys to waive NTC's hasn't hurt the ability of NJ, Boston, Washington, Toronto, Dallas, Anaheim or Chicago's ability to attract talent.

Moreover, given the chemistry that Cammmalleri has with Pleks, I'm sure Cammy is no dummy. If dumping Gomez is the only way that he can keep playing with Pleks, Cammy is enough of a professional to realize what is best for the team.

Anyone can see that as long as Gomez's contract is on the books, the habs are hamstrung in locking up guys whose contracts are up in the next two year. Pleks/Price/Halak are the biggies this year. Markov and AK46 next year. We also need a serious upgrade on D and Hamrlik will hae to be replaced after next year as well. People on this site don't seem to have any issue by trying to move the salary of Hammer who has been our best D-men while Markov was out, in order to make sure that we can sign Pleks and Price, when its Gomez's salary that is the issue. If i was Cammy or Pleks I'd be pissed that Gomez at Gomez's play up to now.

Attracting UFA's is dependent on a number of factors like WINNING, the city, WINNING, tax/cost of living and WINNING - with the exception of the idiots who for some reason sign in Toronto to support the Ontario Teachers and enjoy losing.

While, I'm sure Cammy had hoped that he would have a big year if Gomez turned things around, Cammy like everyone else in the league is no dummy and has to know the Habs are hamstrung with Gomez's salary. Besides, what did you expect Cammy to say when he signed - I signed here because this was the only place I got a $6m long term contract????

As far as Gionta goes, despite him being a heart and soul guy, with a blue collar work ethic, I wouildn't mind seeing the habs move him either. You can't expect to maintain a winning team by paying a 20 goal, 55-65 point guy $5m. Although I guess that is still paying a 12-15 goal, 50-60 point guy $7.3M. If the habs do move Halak, I hope they package Gionta or Gomez.

Going back to his Dallas days, Gainey has a long history of overpaying guys and then dumping them. Problem is that its tougher to move mistakes in the cap era

I think you have been drinking to much of the kool-aid gainey has been selling, because as long as Gomez is here the habs chances for being a serious contender are pretty limited.

Edited December 25, 2009 by hab29RETIRED

[Colin]

As far as Gionta goes, despite him being a heart and soul guy, with a blue collar work ethic, I wouildn't mind seeing the habs move him either. You can't expect to maintain a winning team by paying a 20 goal, 55-65 point guy $5m. Although I guess that is still paying a 12-15 goal, 50-60 point guy $7.3M. If the habs do move Halak, I hope they package Gionta or Gomez.

Except that he was on pace for a 35+ goal season when he was injured. Not 20.

[simonus]

cmon Habs29Retired -> Brevity is the soul of wit.

[hab29RETIRED]

Except that he was on pace for a 35+ goal season when he was injured. Not 20.

after his 48 goal season, Gionta has scored 25, 22 and 20 goals - which suggest he is a 20 something goal scorer. When Kjell Dahlin joined the habs, in the first 20 games he was on pace for 45-50 goals and ended up with 30 something. You can't use 20 games to project a season.

Edited December 25, 2009 by hab29RETIRED

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Gomez is likely here for the duration. Can we please stop whining about it?

[JMMR]

Gomez is likely here for the duration. Can we please stop whining about it?

I agree and no matter how his stats look at the end of the season if the Habs make the playoffs I think everyone will see him earn his keep.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I agree and no matter how his stats look at the end of the season if the Habs make the playoffs I think everyone will see him earn his keep.

On that note, I'm also a little tired of people pointing to his low goal totals. This guy is not a scorer; he's a play-maker, and should be evaluated on that basis.

[hab29RETIRED]

On that note, I'm also a little tired of people pointing to his low goal totals. This guy is not a scorer; he's a play-maker, and should be evaluated on that basis.

Ok - he has 21 points this year, but missed a few games. that puts him on pass for around 45 points. Great playmaking totals. If Gomez gets $8M this year for his 17 assists, how much does Pleks deserve for his 36 assists??? At his current pace, Gomez will be lucky to match Pleks half year assist or points total. Lets hope he will pick things up once Gionta comes back.

Why are you guys so intent on defending the guy????

Edited December 26, 2009 by hab29RETIRED

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Not "intent on defending him" - there's no question he needs to get more points. But he's only played 1/3 of a season (and is paired with garbage, never a good thing for a player of his profile). He started slow in his first season with the Rangers but hit a PPG clip in the second half. So I feel we should at least wait a full season before pouring scorn on the guy and making him into the new Whipping Boy.

I also find that the continual grousing about how he's not worth his salary, and how he doesn't score goals, is ridiculous. On what basis did anyone expect that he *would* be worth his salary, or that he *would* score lots of goals? Nobody - and yet now we keep hearing this drone from fans and media 'experts' alike, as though Gainey (or anyone else) expected that he would miraculously become Jarome Iginla when he donned the CH. Yes, he's overpaid, yes, he doesn't score much, can we please all move on now?

(He is also nearly unmoveable. So complaining about him is one of the more futile activities available to us).

Finally, I admit that I do like (not love) Gomez - always did. He is very good at making plays out of nothing. His low points totals shouldn't blind us to the fact that this guy does fairly routinely execute interesting, unexpected, and helpful moves out there. I like watching players who can fairly reliably surprise me with what they do with the puck. Gomez does that. So I say, relax, enjoy what he does bring, and hope for more points in the second half.

[JMMR]

after his 48 goal season, Gionta has scored 25, 22 and 20 goals - which suggest he is a 20 something goal scorer. When Kjell Dahlin joined the habs, in the first 20 games he was on pace for 45-50 goals and ended up with 30 something. You can't use 20 games to project a season.

Good so Plekanec could still end the season with 60 points and Gomez just as many because you can't use 39 games to judge a season either.

Gionta would have scored 30+ if he played 80+ games I would be on that for sure and believe should he have a healthy year with Gomez he will score 30+.

[v-hab]

Hab29retired, I for one am not offended by the length of detail and information you present, and I do enjoy reading your posts. I don’t always agree entirely on all of your issues, but close enough to give pause for more thought. Perhaps this is because I also am retired and search daily for information from a number of sites giving exposure to different views . . .my problem is retaining it all.

In your Dec 24th post . . . “I have no preference right now between Halak and Price, but don't want to make a move right now when we don't have to. I wouldn't mind a move packaging Halak or Price if it allows us to pick up another centre, IF the centre we include is Gomez, but I don't want to move Pleks and Halak and regret both moves.

.If i'm in Gainey's position, I would sign Pleks and find a way to unload Gomez's salary, even if it means eating it in the minors (NJ has used this approach masterfully to get out of their bad signings).

I would wait and let Halak and Price fight it out until the end of the year. As i've said, the only way I'd move Halak is if I could dump a salary like Gomez and bring in another centre or a stud D-man. “

As I read all this opposition towards Gomez, it appears too be just his cap hit, His signing brought us Cammalleri and Gionta. Gainey is not going to dump Gomez, at least not for a couple of years. Should Gainey get fired, that might change.

Have to agree 100% on signing Plekanec. There is no one available from a trade or UFA pick-up that can do all he does. Again, I would front load a seven year contact and have him signed by mid-January. With his confidence issues the later we wait, he could be tempted to test the UFA market feeling he is not wanted. Gainey made the Exception in signing Koivu in mid-season. Plekanec is without question a player that should get the same ‘exception’.

I on the other hand would not wait too much longer re; Halak – Price . I would trade Price while he still has value to return a real scoring winger to bring two solid scoring threats. Should Price falter as he did last season, then his value weakens the return. Signing Halak to reasonable contract should be a financial reason as well as, considering potential to be almost equal.

My two cents

[Colin]

Boy, if length of reply is a problem, then I have to wonder if anyone reads most of what I write. Or if anyone reads the site proper.