JMMR Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Rumour that Kostitsyn will be traded by months end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmethead Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Rumour that Kostitsyn will be traded by months end. Alone or as a package? Likely destination(s)?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Rumour that Kostitsyn will be traded by months end. any source to this or just picking out of the air? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 any source to this or just picking out of the air? Source is yes the air Airwaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Source is yes the air Airwaves. Time to get that tinfoil cap on again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Rumors of a deal being made between Montreal and Edmonton. Also Gorges name being thrown around as potential "big deal" but nothing linking these two deals together so they may be related and may not be related. My guess would be Hemsky coming our way as Oilers seems to be shopping him heavily. What exactly we would be sending their way I really don't know, but Oilers are in need of defence. IMHO Gorges for Hemsky isn't worth it but could see a package of players. If we're giving up Gorges we better get a Paajarvi at least in return, but knowing us, it'll be Horcoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Rumors of a deal being made between Montreal and Edmonton. Also Gorges name being thrown around as potential "big deal" but nothing linking these two deals together so they may be related and may not be related. My guess would be Hemsky coming our way as Oilers seems to be shopping him heavily. What exactly we would be sending their way I really don't know, but Oilers are in need of defence. IMHO Gorges for Hemsky isn't worth it but could see a package of players. If we're giving up Gorges we better get a Paajarvi at least in return, but knowing us, it'll be Horcoff. I like Hemsky as a player, and supported our acquiring him a couple of years ago - but it's become crystal clear that he is hurt all the damned time and seems to have a pain threshold of about zero. The opposite of what we need. He'd better not be the key cog in any deal with Edmonton. I also don't like that both Gorges and Kosty are impending UFAs and we are hearing rumours of their being traded, without any sign of attempted negotiations between the Habs and them. I'm still miffed that Wisniewski claimed PG did not even attempt to sign him, and it's a bit disconcerting that this pattern might continue with a core guy like Gorges and a good secondary asset like Kostitsyn. In short, these rumours stink! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 The good news about Gorges is his name is thrown out there associated with a "big" deal. As PG doesn't like big deals I don't expect him to go anywhere. Gorges is a future #1 pair defenseman, he's good now but not there quite yet. Aside from his 1 knee surgery he's pretty dependable and hurt rarely so thats not something you give up for a Hemsky. Thats a piece you give up with an Eberle or Hall is going the other way, in respect to the trade being with the Oilers. I like Kostitsyn, but if he's gonna go now is the time. He's somewhat consistent and since the rest of the team is lackluster scoring he's looking good so it raises his value. I'd rather keep him but if he's not going to be re-signed this summer, trade him now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Hemsky is also a pending UFA, for that reason, the move is lateral at best. I don't see it likely from either team. Oilers and Habs would both need future assets not UFAs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Hemsky is also a pending UFA, for that reason, the move is lateral at best. I don't see it likely from either team. Oilers and Habs would both need future assets not UFAs. Well, I'm not sure about that. It's conceivable that the Oil are hungry to make the playoffs NOW. They have plenty of young assets as well and might in principle be willing to move one. The problem, no doubt, is that Kosty is an impending UFA. Otherwise we might well have a chance to use him to pry a good young asset out of Edmonton, given that Hemsky seems to have become marginal to the Oilers' plans and Kosty would provide a much more robust presence for them. I'm surprised Cammy's name hasn't arisen in this connection. I don't know the Oilers' cap situation - I don't even know their roster very well, really - but at face value you'd think he'd be a great addition for them, and one who would warrant some significant return in young talent for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 My guess would be Cammy has 2 years left on his contract after this year while Edmonton has Gagner, Barker, Peckham, and Dubnyk as RFA's this year, Hall and Eberle next year. Cammy's contract is probably too long and too pricey to ensure they get their key kids signed, especially if they have been looking to part ways with Hemsky since last year. Just in this offseason your probably looking at Edmonton using Hemsky's contract to sign the 4 RFA's for this year, while Hall and Eberle will be commanding big pay raises next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 - As I noted the other day, Morgan Ellis is likely to be dealt. It sounds as if the Saint John Sea Dogs will be getting him though that's just a rumour at this point. (They reportedly want one of either Ellis or current WJHC d-man Gormley.) Well, it's not St. John's. Instead, it's Shawinigan where he'll play with Bournival and will automatically be in the Memorial Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KamalPanesar Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Rumour that Kostitsyn will be traded by months end. Where'd you hear that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Where'd you hear that? Radio He will be one of the first moved out if no extension signed in next 2 weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 The radio source is 0/1 so far as the original report was by month's end. I too think he'll be moved but closer to the deadline. It's not as simple as offering an Kostitsyn an extension as most are advocating, especially if the decision is made to change GM's for next year. Gauthier/Gainey/Carriere (whichever is acting GM in the coming weeks) may want to keep him but whoever the new guy next year is (if there is one) may not want him around. As a result, the babysitting GM will likely try to avoid 'hamstringing' the club with any more contracts beyond this year unless they're dealing out a longer-term pact in return (like a Cammalleri for a player with one less season on his deal). The GM may kick the tires on what it would take to keep him as knowledge for bidding on him as a UFA (if he's dealt) but I'd be shocked to see him extended. Heck, on the scale of what could happen with him, I'd put extending him at the very bottom. - Trade him - Keep him past the deadline and have the new GM try to extend - Extend him before the deadline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 You mean as opposed to taking on a Gomez type contract by signing Kaberle, who at best is a PP specialist, that can't play defense worth shit. Even if there was a GM change, as long as we didn't sign AK46 to stupid money, he would still be a lot easier to move then Gomez, Kaberle, Gionta and Cammy. Philly has shown over the years it's much better to sign your young assets and THEN move them for better assets if you want to make a change. AK46's trade value would be much higher if he was locked up for 5-6 years at $4m to $4.5m, then it is with him being a UFA. You only trade him if you can't sign holim - and only after trying hard and being very creative in the structure of the contract to get him locked up between $4m to $4.5m. I think if the habs were to offer him $4m/yr for 6 years and included a $6m signing bonus on July 1 and then $3m/yr for the remainder, we would be getting a heck of a deal for a guy who is going to be a 30 goal scorer. The sabres locked up Meyers with a similar deal. Some might call it a bad deal given Meyers and the sabres play, but don't forget how Pronger was at that age. That deal was a smart move by the sabres. The habs on the other hand won't offer our own young RFA's those type of deals, but are willing to trade for crap contracts like Kaberle and Gomez that no other GM would touch with a 10 foot pole. We need to be creative in locking up our own RFA's and UFA's rather then overpaying for guys like Cammy and Gionta and trading for crap like Gomez and Kaberle. I would take the same approach with Price. Your whole arguement makes zero sense, in not wanting to keep the actual assets that should be our core instead of dumping the crap. The radio source is 0/1 so far as the original report was by month's end. I too think he'll be moved but closer to the deadline. It's not as simple as offering an Kostitsyn an extension as most are advocating, especially if the decision is made to change GM's for next year. Gauthier/Gainey/Carriere (whichever is acting GM in the coming weeks) may want to keep him but whoever the new guy next year is (if there is one) may not want him around. As a result, the babysitting GM will likely try to avoid 'hamstringing' the club with any more contracts beyond this year unless they're dealing out a longer-term pact in return (like a Cammalleri for a player with one less season on his deal). The GM may kick the tires on what it would take to keep him as knowledge for bidding on him as a UFA (if he's dealt) but I'd be shocked to see him extended. Heck, on the scale of what could happen with him, I'd put extending him at the very bottom. - Trade him - Keep him past the deadline and have the new GM try to extend - Extend him before the deadline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 You mean as opposed to taking on a Gomez type contract by signing Kaberle, who at best is a PP specialist, that can't play defense worth shit. Your whole arguement makes zero sense, in not wanting to keep the actual assets that should be our core instead of dumping the crap. Circumstances now are different then they were at the time of the Kaberle acquisition. Winning 1 of 6 has a way of changing that. If Kaberle wasn't around at this time with the present record, I don't think Gauthier would be going out and acquiring him now. As for my argument making zero sense, what is illogical about a soon-to-be-out GM getting orders to not bring in more long-term deals? What's done is done, the premise is to not add more long deals beyond the current team (and if they can move one or two of those out as you encourage, all the better depending on who they are of course). If the core is so screwed up, we shouldn't be in a hurry to encourage a soon-to-be-fired GM (one who you've criticized massively at that, would you trust him to sign a deal to your liking?) to lock up a 20-to-25-goal guy to a 6 or 7 year deal as you're advocating. It's a similar argument for Gorges although his other intangibles would likely lead the GM to sign him before Kostitsyn, if either get extended. Truth be told, I'm not the biggest Kostitsyn fan out there, his cold spells drive me nuts although there's no denying he is a talented player. If he's a surefire 30-goal guy that you attest to, then I'd be more of a fan but he hasn't hit that plateau yet and won't come close this year either. I think he's without a doubt in another organization next season unless the Habs severely overpay him. He's had 5 different coaches since he joined the Habs with similar results each time. If he thinks an organizational change can bring out the best in him, that consistency that has dogged him so far, I'd have to think he'll want to lean that route. Nothing necessarily against the city, just that he'll see a fresh start as a chance to improve. (Of course it could also backfire...) But back to the premise, rebuilding teams with a soon-to-be-departed GM don't sign guys long-term before they get the boot. If you believe the reports that Molson has already asked Gainey to step back in (CBC's Elliotte Friedman a couple weeks ago), that means he's lost the confidence of Gauthier or at the very least will be signing off on anything. All the more reason (at least in my opinion) to suspect there will be no extension talks unless they fire Gauthier and hire the permanent replacement prior to the deadline. If that happens, all bets are off. I agree that the Habs should be more creative in extending their RFA's (though I don't want to sign every potential core piece for 6, 7 years as you've suggested in the past with the likes of White or Eller). I just think we'll see that route taken with Price and maybe Subban over the likes of Kostitsyn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 It appears my theory was half right. Gorges signed before Kostitsyn but I honestly didn't think either would be getting new deals. Interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Trading for Kaberle whethet now, or 1 1/2 months ago was a bad move. You don't pay 4.5m to a guy who is incapable of even being a facsimile of an NHL defencemen anymore and represents the soft, lazy type of player that is the problem with the habs core veterans. To me that over-price core means Cammy, gill and Gomez. These are all guys that aren't willing to play physical or go to the dirty areas. Cammy has been a total perimeter player. Ditto with Gomez. Gill is 6'7" and is less physical then Diaz. We have one least have dman in gill who shouldn't be taking too many shifts outside the PK, but is incapable of being effective 5-5. So what do we do, we acquire a dman making $4.5m for THREE years that is incapable of playing 5-5. In a non salary cap world, where you could dress 22 players each night, so you have 8 defencemen that would be an okay strategy. It is absurd and stupid to have made the Kaberle deal under a cap system when you already have the worst contract in the NHL on the books (I dont count Redden, since he isn't actually in the NHL). To me Kaberle represents the type of player you want to get rid of, rather then add to your core. The only other thing I'll add is that as much as I disliked spacek, by trading away his expiring contract for Kaberle's stupid 3 yr deal, we got 1 less goal and only 3 more points from Kaberle, then what Spacek has produced for Carolina. Despite Kaberle out scoring spacek by 3 points, spacek is a +1 and Kaberle is a -3. The rotten core we have are the soft veterans on the team that are making a lot of money and not even delivering 25 cents on the dollar. You have criticized AK46 for his lack of consistency and not yet reaching 30 goals in his career. How many 30 goal scorers do you know that play less then 15 min a game???? For the last two years ak46 has been actually averaging around 13 min playing mainly on the third line and even on the fourth line. beja production hasn't been significantly worse then Cammy during the past two seasons, despite significantly less ice time. He has also been more effective then Gomez or Cammy at half or in Gomez' case less then half the salary. He also hits and until the emergence of maxpac and the acquisition of cole was our lone physical player with any skill at all. Let's not forgot the meat grinder ak46, sk74 and hamrlik were put through by the montreal media a few years back following his first full NHL season. This is his 5th fullyear and he has produced 26, 23 (so called scandal year), 15 (59 games), 20 (largely in 3rd line role with limited minutes) and has 1O goals right now - despite not getting or seeing very limited PP time forthe first half of the year. The $6m Cammy has hardly been consistent. In his first 5 years he put up 26, 34, 19, 39, 26 goals and since then has 19 and 8. He was hardly a consistent player to begin with and the flames were unwilling to resign him because of his playoff performence. While had been good in the playoffs here, he has sucked in the regular season for the past 1 1/2 years under Martin - despite getting 1st line and first shift PP time. So even if a guy like Cammy has put up 30 plus goals twice in his career and hasn't been able to do it under Martin, how do you expect AK46 to produce given how he has been used.. Both AK45, Cammy along with other 25-35 goal scorers are streaky - which is why they aren't 50 goal scorers like stamkos. However unlike Cammy AK46 is co tributing in other ways - Cammy is wasted ice time when he is not producing. I Circumstances now are different then they were at the time of the Kaberle acquisition. Winning 1 of 6 has a way of changing that. If Kaberle wasn't around at this time with the present record, I don't think Gauthier would be going out and acquiring him now. As for my argument making zero sense, what is illogical about a soon-to-be-out GM getting orders to not bring in more long-term deals? What's done is done, the premise is to not add more long deals beyond the current team (and if they can move one or two of those out as you encourage, all the better depending on who they are of course). If the core is so screwed up, we shouldn't be in a hurry to encourage a soon-to-be-fired GM (one who you've criticized massively at that, would you trust him to sign a deal to your liking?) to lock up a 20-to-25-goal guy to a 6 or 7 year deal as you're advocating. It's a similar argument for Gorges although his other intangibles would likely lead the GM to sign him before Kostitsyn, if either get extended. Truth be told, I'm not the biggest Kostitsyn fan out there, his cold spells drive me nuts although there's no denying he is a talented player. If he's a surefire 30-goal guy that you attest to, then I'd be more of a fan but he hasn't hit that plateau yet and won't come close this year either. I think he's without a doubt in another organization next season unless the Habs severely overpay him. He's had 5 different coaches since he joined the Habs with similar results each time. If he thinks an organizational change can bring out the best in him, that consistency that has dogged him so far, I'd have to think he'll want to lean that route. Nothing necessarily against the city, just that he'll see a fresh start as a chance to improve. (Of course it could also backfire...) But back to the premise, rebuilding teams with a soon-to-be-departed GM don't sign guys long-term before they get the boot. If you believe the reports that Molson has already asked Gainey to step back in (CBC's Elliotte Friedman a couple weeks ago), that means he's lost the confidence of Gauthier or at the very least will be signing off on anything. All the more reason (at least in my opinion) to suspect there will be no extension talks unless they fire Gauthier and hire the permanent replacement prior to the deadline. If that happens, all bets are off. I agree that the Habs should be more creative in extending their RFA's (though I don't want to sign every potential core piece for 6, 7 years as you've suggested in the past with the likes of White or Eller). I just think we'll see that route taken with Price and maybe Subban over the likes of Kostitsyn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 It appears my theory was half right. Gorges signed before Kostitsyn but I honestly didn't think either would be getting new deals. Interesting... I don' know why you think the incumbant GM even as a caretaker can't make moves. The leafs had Fletcher make moves as a caretaker. Why keep the GM in place if he can't make any moves?? May as well fire him now otherwise. I think this is the first good in season move PG has made. The pearn firing was stupid - tha'ts when JM should have been fired, or at the very latest during the break before the California trip. Definatley before make a desperate and stupid move for Kaberle. AFter that,Molson/PG dropped the ball on how the Cunneyworth language issue was handled. THey needed to resign Gorges - I only wish they front loaded the contract to get GOrges take less overall money and keep the cap hit down - but Molson's probably too damn cheap to do that, unlike owners who are committed to winning. Now that we got him signed and despite how much I love Gorges, if we get an offer that blows us away - I still wouldn't hesitate to move him, or AK46 for that matter. I just wouldn't be willing to move either of these two for a late 1st round draft pick. I would only do it for a young prospect that is a can't miss blue-chip type of prospect, that can fill a need going forward (think big tough physical dman or centre prospect). However, IMO the more practical approach to take the following: -YOu have your future captain now in Gorges, that after (or if) Gionta gets back, coaching staff is instructed to do everything possible to get him producing, to showcase him, so you can trade him. -Ditto with Cammy. I honestly think that if Philly's current dman can't make up for the loss of Pronger, if we take salary back from Philly and offered up Cammy with Gill and Weber or something similar we might be able to get Schenn. I know he was the centre piece in the Richards deal, but Philly has a window to go for it all and GM's tend to be willing to give up can't miss guys for a chance at the cup. And remember Philly is loaded at centre. The other option I see is same sort of deal with Washington and try and get their 1st pick from Colorado. Hell they may even be willing to take Gionta/gill/weber package if Gionta starts producing, since they lack playoff experience and there is no word when Green i going to be back. -At the deadline, you move Moen, Campoli and Kaberle (if you can - I don't see anyone wanting him though). -I would immidiately start trying hard to resign AK46 to a similar term - you would need to front load it to keep the salary down and still offer incentive for him to sign now, otherwise you move him. -Similar approach with Price - front loaded long term contract. You may disagree, but this team has been ripped apart and has been unwilling to commit with its prospects (other then Plex, Markov and Gorges) and even then, they did so in their UFA years. But I think we need to commit to some of the role players, which is why I would sign a guy like White long-term. Good teams have role players that are around for a long time - that's how they take on leadership position with the team and can challenge a guys like Cammy. Detroit has always done this. To me that is the model franchise i wan't to emulate going forward, rather then the desperation type moves of John Ferguson or Rejean Houle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I didn't say that a caretaker GM can't make moves, just that one won't make deals that seriously affect the franchise long-term like a Gorges-type deal does. A caretaker's job is to clear salary and provide payroll flexibility while adding some youngsters to the organization (ye olde firesale). Signing 6 and 7 year extensions goes completely against that. I'm taking a look at what Fletcher did in his term as caretaker. He gave a 2 year extension to Alex Steen, an up and coming youngster at the time. He also dealt 3 guys for picks. In free agency time, he got the go ahead from ownership to sign some long-term deals...which were flops (Finger and Hagman), dealt away McCabe in a cap dump, and traded for 2 young NHL'ers (Grabovski and Stempniak). Nothing overly risky (beyond the UFA deals), basically just cap dumps and young asset acquisition. No core shaking deals or long-term extensions as that should be left up to the incoming permanent guy. Now, today's news suggests to me Gauthier isn't as much a lame duck as I originally thought, I highly doubt Molson would've agreed to a 6 year deal unless he still trusts Gauthier's judgment. Perhaps that changes things for Kostitsyn. As for Philly taking Cammalleri, Gill, and Weber for a deal surrounding Schenn? Philly would never, and I mean never, ever consider that deal. Mike Richards is a franchise-type forward. They believe Schenn can be that as well. Now they're going to move him for a guy who, according to your post a couple above this, is more or less a waste of time for most of his shifts, on a long-term deal they simply cannot afford? As I noted in the Gorges thread as well, we don't know that the deal isn't front loaded to some degree. Let's wait for the actual numbers before evaluating that element. As for Detroit, I don't recall the Draper's and Maltby's of the world signing uber-long extensions. Heck, they're not doing that now with their important depth guys like Darren Helm, instead opting to go short term. The more the Habs go long-term with their core guys (like Detroit has), the more they have to go short term with the depth ones to balance the cap (also like Detroit has). No team can go all long-term and make it work, not with regular fluctuations to the cap. If it were a fixed cap, I'd say it's more of a feasible option but not now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Habs29, I don't know why you're in a hurry to get rid of Gionta particularly, and I still rate your hate-on for Kaberle - who is signed for 4.2, BTW, not 4.5 - as pretty exaggerated. Moen is also a pretty good blood-and-guts guy, who I'd only move because his value is probably inflated at the moment. The other thing is this grumbling about our unwillingness to lock up our prospects. I agree that IF you can lock up great prospects at a discount, then of course you do it. But I doubt that most players are dumb enough to lock up at a significant discount, and off the top of my head I don't see a whole lot of great prospects that we allowed to walk, other than Streit. Higgins, Komisarek - did we really want those guys locked up at $4-5 mil each for ten years? (This is a separate issue from trading away prospects, which Gainey did to excess). That Gorges was locked up suggests PG will now try to lock up Kosty. The main message I take from this is that the Canadiens ARE happy to negotiate during a season; if Kostitsyn is dealt away, it seems fair to infer that that will be because his demands are unreasonable from the Habs's point of view. This is reassuring at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I didn't say that a caretaker GM can't make moves, just that one won't make deals that seriously affect the franchise long-term like a Gorges-type deal does. A caretaker's job is to clear salary and provide payroll flexibility while adding some youngsters to the organization (ye olde firesale). Signing 6 and 7 year extensions goes completely against that. I'm taking a look at what Fletcher did in his term as caretaker. He gave a 2 year extension to Alex Steen, an up and coming youngster at the time. He also dealt 3 guys for picks. In free agency time, he got the go ahead from ownership to sign some long-term deals...which were flops (Finger and Hagman), dealt away McCabe in a cap dump, and traded for 2 young NHL'ers (Grabovski and Stempniak). Nothing overly risky (beyond the UFA deals), basically just cap dumps and young asset acquisition. No core shaking deals or long-term extensions as that should be left up to the incoming permanent guy. Now, today's news suggests to me Gauthier isn't as much a lame duck as I originally thought, I highly doubt Molson would've agreed to a 6 year deal unless he still trusts Gauthier's judgment. Perhaps that changes things for Kostitsyn. As for Philly taking Cammalleri, Gill, and Weber for a deal surrounding Schenn? Philly would never, and I mean never, ever consider that deal. Mike Richards is a franchise-type forward. They believe Schenn can be that as well. Now they're going to move him for a guy who, according to your post a couple above this, is more or less a waste of time for most of his shifts, on a long-term deal they simply cannot afford? As I noted in the Gorges thread as well, we don't know that the deal isn't front loaded to some degree. Let's wait for the actual numbers before evaluating that element. As for Detroit, I don't recall the Draper's and Maltby's of the world signing uber-long extensions. Heck, they're not doing that now with their important depth guys like Darren Helm, instead opting to go short term. The more the Habs go long-term with their core guys (like Detroit has), the more they have to go short term with the depth ones to balance the cap (also like Detroit has). No team can go all long-term and make it work, not with regular fluctuations to the cap. If it were a fixed cap, I'd say it's more of a feasible option but not now. Gainey moved Iginla for Neiwendyk who had been a hold-out for half the year. I think Iginla was a better prospect then Schenn is. A chance at the cup, makes teams make dumb moves. Remember how much Nashville gave up for an injury riddled Forsburg??? With respect to Detroit, in the pre-cap era, you didn't need to lock up guys long-term, since their was no restrictions on how much you can spend. In today's NHL, you have to have flexibility in your roster, but still be able to have a team with the right chemistry. Part of the chemistry comes from having guys committed long-term and knowing they are part of the solution long-term. If you look at Philly, they not only had locked up Timonen, Briere, Pronger, Richards and Carter long-term, they also gave a long-term deal to Talbot this summer. I don't think PG will resign AK46, becuase, frankly, I don't think he likes him or values him enough. If he does it would surprise me a hell of a lot more then the Gorges signing. The Gorges signing was NEEDED, it should have been done last summer and could have been done a hell of lot cheaper at that time. As ive said earlier, he should have been able to get a better cap hit by front-loading - but I the habs don't do that. If the six year term is front loaded with an average hit of $3.9M, then the habs severely over-paid for Gorges, when you factor in the time value of money. I think Gorges would have got $4m to $4.5M on the open market - with the high-end only if a GM got really stupid (which wouldn't really surprise me - that is why we have lockouts - to try and make the collective bargaining contract more idiot proof for stupid GM's). I think $3.9M is very high, but we had no choice, outside of having a lower cap hit by front loading. BUt as i've said, if this is front-loaded, it is a dumb contract. Who would you take Myer at $4M/yr or Gorges at $3.9M. Yes, I know Gorges is UFA and Meyers an RFA - which is EXACTLY why you lock up your RFA"s long term as RFA's and not UFA's!!!!!!! The habs should have and I had said so last summer, locked up Gorges to a 6-7 year deal. WHich is exactly the term we ended up locking him up for. The only difference is we probably overpaid by around .5M to .75M of what Gorges would have cost last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Gainey moved Iginla for Neiwendyk who had been a hold-out for half the year. I think Iginla was a better prospect then Schenn is. A chance at the cup, makes teams make dumb moves. Remember how much Nashville gave up for an injury riddled Forsburg??? Pre cap era, those are different times. Philly, as of today, can acquire a player making max $2.5 million, with all LTIR options exhausted. Schenn's max cap hit is down to just over 2, meaning if they dealt him, they still couldn't take on Cammalleri let alone the others. Yes, teams will make dumb moves for a Cup run, making one where they'd have to waive and bury multiple useful players isn't going to be one of them. They'll spend what they have left on a D (frankly Gill could very well be an option on his own) but not with Cammalleri and surely not for Schenn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) <p> </p> <p> <br />Habs29, I don't know why you're in a hurry to get rid of Gionta particularly, and I still rate your hate-on for Kaberle - who is signed for 4.2, BTW, not 4.5 - as pretty exaggerated. Moen is also a pretty good blood-and-guts guy, who I'd only move because his value is probably inflated at the moment. The other thing is this grumbling about our unwillingness to lock up our prospects. I agree that IF you can lock up great prospects at a discount, then of course you do it. But I doubt that most players are dumb enough to lock up at a significant discount, and off the top of my head I don't see a whole lot of great prospects that we allowed to walk, other than Streit. Higgins, Komisarek - did we really want those guys locked up at $4-5 mil each for ten years? (This is a separate issue from<em> trading away </em>prospects, which Gainey did to excess).<br /> <br /> That Gorges was locked up suggests PG will now try to lock up Kosty. The main message I take from this is that the Canadiens ARE happy to negotiate during a season; if Kostitsyn is dealt away, it seems fair to infer that that will be because his demands are unreasonable from the Habs's point of view. This is reassuring at least.<br /> </p><p> </p> <p>$4.5M or $4.2M that is still over double what I would pay Kaberle. Why would you pay that much to a guy who has a history of being known as a soft player and can't play defence 5 on 5???? The guy comes from a losing culture and was HAPPY in that losing culture!!! That is the number one reason I wouldn't want him!!!! Look at the teams that stocked up on the leafs from those losing years - Flames, Hurricaines, FLorida (until this year), all losing teams. Kaberle was the last guy the habs should have gone after given how soft this team is, no matter how bad the PP was.</p> <p> </p> <p>As for Gionta and Moen, as I've said in another post, I think the earliest we can be a true contender is two years. We can be very competitive next year, but not a serious contender. Gionta and Moen aren't getting any younger. As you've said Moen's value is at its maximum and the only way he resigns with us if we give him a really stupid contract. He HAS to be moved!!!</p> <p> </p> <p>With Gionta, it would be great having his leadership, but I really like DD and I think he is better suited to be a winger - said that since last spring. We also have Gallegher coming up. Do we really want three midgets on our top 6 or top 9???? Gionta represents an asset that can fill the holes we have - physical dman and big centre. He also may bring us a mid-first round pick from a bubble team, or possibly Colorado's pick from Washington if packaged with Gill or some other asset. IF we are going to suck this year, we may as well stock pile on picks and trying to either finish in a lottery position, or have enough picks to trade up to a lottery position.</p> <p> </p> <p>Lastly, regarding players not being stupid and unwilling to lock up long-term. Carter and Richards both locked up long term and got burnt by getting traded. Yet Philly has no issues signing free agents still. I bring that up, beause, I remember when I had suggested locking up Komi and then trading him, you had said that sign and trade strategies would result in no one wanting to sign habs players. Other teams do it all the time. PHilly has been doing it since they signed Roenick and then dumped him to LA. Rangers signed Gomez, dumped him on us and also dumped Redden to the minors. BOston did that as well.</p> <p><br /> Why can't we do that???? Why can't we sign up our prospects like Meyers, Richards, Carter, Seabrook, Keith, Toews, Kane, Sharp, Weiss to cap friendly deals rather then this crap 1, 2 or 3 year deals until a player becomes a UFA??? Other teams stars take cuts to keep their core together. We overpay for crap and let guys we developed get away. Streit had even said that he would have signed for half of what he got from the Isles, if the Habs had offered him a long term deal prior to Xmas in his UFA year. </p> <p> </p> <p>Wiz didn't even get a call from PG!!! I'm actually expecting PG to do the same with Ak46. Gainey pretty much slammed the door on Koivu and basically said don't let the door hit your ass on the way out and replaced him with Gomez!!!!! Can you imagine how much better we would be with Koivu in the lineup over Gomez even today????? HOw much cap flexibility we would have???</p> <div id="myEventWatcherDiv" style="display:none;"> </div> Edited January 2, 2012 by dlbalr Converting post to HTML mode, be sure to toggle this option if you're using paragraph tags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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