Commandant Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 At this point Kaberle is a far, far better hockey player than Hamrlik is. If you had a fountain of youth to fix Hamrlik, that might be different but today Ill take Kaberle, who is also 5 years younger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Washington needs PP help. How about Kaberle for Hamrlik ? We save cap space,term and get a guy that can actually play 5 on 5 hockey Well it would be less of a cap hit and a year shorter on the deal... but if Gauthier were looking to do this, he would have just kept Spacek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I get Habs29's view of Kaberle as a 'loser.' I mean, he did win the Cup and he has been almost frighteningly consistent in his offensive production over his career, but I could see where someone would conclude that anyone who spent all those years on those awful Leafs team is an intrinsic loser. And there's no question, he's soft in the sense of having zero physical element (like a lot of players). But other than these suspicions about his intrinsic character and the complaint that he isn't Kevin Bieksa, I fundamentally don't get the hate on for Kaberle. He's one of these guys: all he does is get points. But on a team with ZERO defencemen except Subban who can be relied upon to actually produce offensively, he clearly is a useful, vakuable contributor. Contrary to popular myth his contract is in no way aberrant given that steady production. The idea that he's some albatross just seems to be a media myth generated by the hysteria that surrounded his acquisition - which was a textbook case of acquiring a player when his value was at its absolute lowest, yet fans can never forgive Gauthier for that very thing. It's as if the quality offensive game he's generated for us, which are entirely consistent with every other season of his career, has been completely obscured by a few bad weeks in Carolina that will define him in Habs fans' minds for all time. It's just weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I agree 100% I also think that Habs fans have hated the guy for so long... ll those years in Toronto, and then watching him win a cup for the Bruins (where he was their leading scorer among defencemen in the playoffs)... there is a mental block for some where subconsciously we just can't get past the hate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The hate has definitely slowed down, but I think for the Toronto/Boston/not physical reasons you mentioned, it's probably here to stay. He had 9 pts in 29 games with Carolina, and he has 11 pts in 19 games with the Habs. Nothing wrong with that from an offensive defenceman. He'll push 40 pts for the year. Whether the Habs can win with Kaberle at that cap hit is a whole other debate, but we can agree he isn't the primary reason they are losing. The Habs had that down pat before he got there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The cap hit is actually reasonable for what he brings to the table.. just look at all the defencemen within 500,000 of Kaberle.... of the offensive D in this range and there is about 15 of them, there are only a few puck movers who are clearly better players (Streit, wideman, Ehrhoff, and Pitkanen)..... the rest are all either about equivalent to Kaberle or clearly worse. He's at fair market value for what he brings.... 3rd pairing defensive skill, and a 45-50 pt dman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seb Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 But that's a lot of rational thinking for a fanbase that "is extremely passionate and knowledgeable about hockey", as they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The cap hit is actually reasonable for what he brings to the table.. just look at all the defencemen within 500,000 of Kaberle.... of the offensive D in this range and there is about 15 of them, there are only a few puck movers who are clearly better players (Streit, wideman, Ehrhoff, and Pitkanen)..... the rest are all either about equivalent to Kaberle or clearly worse. He's at fair market value for what he brings.... 3rd pairing defensive skill, and a 45-50 pt dman. I think you need to go beyond the numbers and stats. I think you also have to look at what a player does to make his team better. There are a lot of players who put up good numbers on crappy teams, but really don't improve the team's position in the standings. While some of this has to do with the guys they are playing with (after all, they are on a crappy team), a lot of these guys really don't help teams when they go to another team. Take the ex-Florida panthers as an example. Jokenin has always been a loser, never made the playoffs with a Florida team that had a ton of young talent that couldn't put it together (Martin never was able to get them over the hump as a coach or GM either). Both the Flames and Coyotes tried him, but up decent numbers, I think he only was in the playoffs one year, but could not help the team get wins on the nights they needed to get the win to make the playoffs. Bouwmeester is another guy who was a top draft pick (can't remember if he was #1 or #2 overall), never won anything in the juniors or NHL (except iwth Team Canada), never was able to get his team in the playoffs, goes to the flames and hasn't been in the playoffs with him on the team. It looks to me that Phaneuf was the guy I'd rather have kept. Bouwmeester puts up decent indivdiual numbers, IMO he is MUCH more skilled then Phaneuf, but really doesn't improve the players around him. WHile I'm not much of a Phaneuf fan, i'd take in a heart beat over Bouwmeester or Kaberle. I think Phaneuf was in a similar position with Calgary, as Subban is in Montreal now - which really has me worried. issues i see with both Jokinen and bouwmwester is lack of passion, doesn't seem like there is any fire in their belly or desire to want ot win. The only panther that has done well and has a completely different attidude unfortunatley is Horton. It pisses me off that the Bruins got this guy so cheap. But he plays with passion and even in Florida, there were nights were the guy was a beast, but he was stuck in a losing enviroment. The 2004 to 2009 leafs are very similar. A lot of them seemed like they were content with losing. Teams that acquired players from those teams suck - look at the number of players that played on those leafs teams that were acquired by Carolina and look were Carolina is today. I really think guys that have been in a losing environemnt and play like they have become comfortable in that environment take that complancy wherever they go. That to me in a nutshell, why I don't want Kaberle around. IMO that is also the type of losing mindset that Cammy referenced. Frankly, I don't care if we have a dman who puts up 55 to 60 points or a forward who gets 85 points and we miss the playoffs, or barely squeak into the playoffs and get thumped. I want a team and players commited to winning. Don't care if we have a bunch of 60 point forwards as long as we win. Yes, I miss the days of Lafleur, Shutt, Naslund, Smith, Muller Bellows and Damphouse and really hope we can snag a guy at the draft who can give us a consistent 85-90 point guy, but not if the guy is not someone who can make other around him better, or a guy who will be comfortable staying in and signing on long-term with a team that has always lost and will always lose (I really don't get Nash's willingness to sign long-term with Columbus). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lafrous10 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I think you need to go beyond the numbers and stats. I think you also have to look at what a player does to make his team better. There are a lot of players who put up good numbers on crappy teams, but really don't improve the team's position in the standings. While some of this has to do with the guys they are playing with (after all, they are on a crappy team), a lot of these guys really don't help teams when they go to another team. Take the ex-Florida panthers as an example. Jokenin has always been a loser, never made the playoffs with a Florida team that had a ton of young talent that couldn't put it together (Martin never was able to get them over the hump as a coach or GM either). Both the Flames and Coyotes tried him, but up decent numbers, I think he only was in the playoffs one year, but could not help the team get wins on the nights they needed to get the win to make the playoffs. Bouwmeester is another guy who was a top draft pick (can't remember if he was #1 or #2 overall), never won anything in the juniors or NHL (except iwth Team Canada), never was able to get his team in the playoffs, goes to the flames and hasn't been in the playoffs with him on the team. It looks to me that Phaneuf was the guy I'd rather have kept. Bouwmeester puts up decent indivdiual numbers, IMO he is MUCH more skilled then Phaneuf, but really doesn't improve the players around him. WHile I'm not much of a Phaneuf fan, i'd take in a heart beat over Bouwmeester or Kaberle. I think Phaneuf was in a similar position with Calgary, as Subban is in Montreal now - which really has me worried. issues i see with both Jokinen and bouwmwester is lack of passion, doesn't seem like there is any fire in their belly or desire to want ot win. The only panther that has done well and has a completely different attidude unfortunatley is Horton. It pisses me off that the Bruins got this guy so cheap. But he plays with passion and even in Florida, there were nights were the guy was a beast, but he was stuck in a losing enviroment. The 2004 to 2009 leafs are very similar. A lot of them seemed like they were content with losing. Teams that acquired players from those teams suck - look at the number of players that played on those leafs teams that were acquired by Carolina and look were Carolina is today. I really think guys that have been in a losing environemnt and play like they have become comfortable in that environment take that complancy wherever they go. That to me in a nutshell, why I don't want Kaberle around. IMO that is also the type of losing mindset that Cammy referenced. Frankly, I don't care if we have a dman who puts up 55 to 60 points or a forward who gets 85 points and we miss the playoffs, or barely squeak into the playoffs and get thumped. I want a team and players commited to winning. Don't care if we have a bunch of 60 point forwards as long as we win. Yes, I miss the days of Lafleur, Shutt, Naslund, Smith, Muller Bellows and Damphouse and really hope we can snag a guy at the draft who can give us a consistent 85-90 point guy, but not if the guy is not someone who can make other around him better, or a guy who will be comfortable staying in and signing on long-term with a team that has always lost and will always lose (I really don't get Nash's willingness to sign long-term with Columbus). That post makes too much sense for the pro PG gang here. He had NOTHING to do with the Bruins winning the cup. Through the 1st 3 rounds their PP was around 7%. He accumalated all his points in a couple of blow-outs in the finals. He was 6th in playing time by far,and would have been benched if there were any other options.For anyone to even mention his contributions compared to Chara shows a severe lack of hockey IQ Well it would be less of a cap hit and a year shorter on the deal... but if Gauthier were looking to do this, he would have just kept Spacek. It was a joke.The Caps would never move hamr for Kabby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 For Lafrous Funny.... for a defenceman that was "6th in ice time for boston by far in the playoffs" he actually played 3 minutes more per game than the guy who was actually the 6th most used D on the Bruins, and that was Adam McQuaid. If you are gonna try and bring stats to prove your points, you could at least ensure that your stats are correct. ======================== For Habs29 Kaberle has been in the playoffs 7 times in his career. He's been in the Eastern Conference Final 3 times in his career. He's won the Stanley Cup once in his career. He has 39 career playoff points. He's not exactly comparable to Jay "never made the playoffs at any level of hockey" Bouwmeester. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for the guys he's comparable to in terms of salary.... here they are, all of the offensive Dmen with a salary cap hit within 500K either way. Clearly Better: Pitkanen, Streit, Wideman, Ehrhoff (note Streit signed 4 years ago under a much lower cap... Ehrhoff has a crazy front loaded deal) About the same: Liles, Gilbert, Meszaros, Goligoski (first 3 all signed under a munch lower cap) Clearly Worse than Kaberle: Jovanovski, Hainsey, Ballard, Zidlicky, Kubina, Spacek Hainsey, Ballard signed when cap was lower. Total Stanley Cup Wins in this group: 1 by Pavel Kubina.... not exactly the biggest group of "proven winners" out there. Kubina had 0 goals 4 assists in the playoffs of Tampa's Cup Win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 When you look at the PP you see players trying to over commit to Subban or when Weber was used because you knew Kaberle was not going to shoot. He only had success in Toronto when he had Phaneuf and mcCabe before him blasting the puck. We don;t have that element on the left side. Our PP struggled last season as well until Wiz was acquired because players could not over commit to one or the other because both Subban on the left and Wiz on the right would blast the puck whenever they had a chance. Teams were forced to tighten their box and not chase the puck carrier. Either we need to get a big left handed shot or hope that somehow if Markov returns; the 2 have chemistry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I agree with Willey that we need someone to blast the puck, but thats where the maturity of Subban needs to come in. He needs to stop with the long telegraphed windups, and with missing the net by 5 feet.... I don't think it needs to be a left handed shot, I think his right handed shot could actually work with Kaberle, assuming that he's able to fix the issue he's had all season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I agree with Willey that we need someone to blast the puck, but thats where the maturity of Subban needs to come in. He needs to stop with the long telegraphed windups, and with missing the net by 5 feet.... I don't think it needs to be a left handed shot, I think his right handed shot could actually work with Kaberle, assuming that he's able to fix the issue he's had all season. He has been much better with this in recent games and his shot seems to be spot on more frequently. We still need more traffic. Either we are a puck moving team looking for perfect plays (which so far isn't working) or we need to get dirty. We need to put some more big bodies in front of the net and keep things simple. PK wrist it at the net and let the Bourque's, Cole's, Pacioretty's of the team get the dirty goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 He has been much better with this in recent games and his shot seems to be spot on more frequently. We still need more traffic. Either we are a puck moving team looking for perfect plays (which so far isn't working) or we need to get dirty. We need to put some more big bodies in front of the net and keep things simple. PK wrist it at the net and let the Bourque's, Cole's, Pacioretty's of the team get the dirty goals. More traffic in front of the net would also help the point men on this PP. I agree with this as well. Also agreed that Subban is starting to come around with his shooting, but its still not what he was doing last season, and he's got more of a ways to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 More traffic in front of the net would also help the point men on this PP. I agree with this as well. Also agreed that Subban is starting to come around with his shooting, but its still not what he was doing last season, and he's got more of a ways to go. last year he just blasted and blast and blasted but the lanes were open because of the threat of Wisnieski. Teams were cheating his way because he had a much bigger and heavier shot that seemed to be accurate. We have Diaz, Kaberle out there who always look to pass. I thought a Weber/Subban duo woulod be more dangerous but I get the impression these kids are trying to out due one another instead of complimenting each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 last year he just blasted and blast and blasted but the lanes were open because of the threat of Wisnieski. Teams were cheating his way because he had a much bigger and heavier shot that seemed to be accurate. We have Diaz, Kaberle out there who always look to pass. I thought a Weber/Subban duo woulod be more dangerous but I get the impression these kids are trying to out due one another instead of complimenting each other. Last year the wind up wasn't as telegraphed and the release was a lot quicker than it is this year. At this level the quickness of your release, is as important, or even more important than how hard your shot is. 4 or 5 mph doesn't make that much of a difference to goalies, but if you can catch them off guard by releasing the puck quicker, you are ahead of the game. Subban's wind up and golf swing have gotten ridiculous this year (though i agree its better of late). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 A big guy in front of net what a novel idea. Wonder why Detroit is so successful? Is it because they got size down the middle? Nope not that. Oh yeah they have Holstrom standing in front of net. What does that do on power play? It keeps those two defenseman from wandering too far and playing the puck along the boards. Not exactly rocket science. Last game I saw the only Canadien that had a stomach for that was Desharnais all 5'5" of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 You know, I think, part of the reason some guys like maxpac and cole may br reluctant to park themselves in front of the reason (and stay there) is two fold. First of all the shot from the point is either not coming through, or the defense is passing it around so much, thT to retain possession these guys need to go into the corners. The other reason I see, is that too many times this year the shots from the dman have been wild - high or wide - and instead of the dman getting shots going through, they have been hitting our forwards a little bit too often for their comfort. I also wonder why they don't take more quick wrist shots then seemingly trying or hoping to put it through people with the big windups we are seeing. The dman need to concentrate on accurracy and greeting shots through that can be deflected and tipped rather then simply going for velocity. Based on the shots I've seen being taken , it makes me wonder how much this is being worked on in practice, or they have very highly ineffective practices. A big guy in front of net what a novel idea. Wonder why Detroit is so successful? Is it because they got size down the middle? Nope not that. Oh yeah they have Big Bert standing in front of net. What does that do on power play? It keeps those two defenseman from wandering too far and playing the puck along the boards. Not exactly rocket science. Last game I saw the only Canadien that had a stomach for that was Desharnais all 5'5" of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Until last year, it had been a LONG time since Kaberle has been in the playoffs and looks like he is going to be on the outside looking in. With the constant losing, I really don't get why he and Sundin kept blocking trades. To me it just speaks to their desire to win and choosing the comfort of a losing environment over a dersire to win. But then I've also never understood why anyone would want to sign with losing teams that have always sucked. The compititor in me would think players would forgoe some cash for the chance to win. I'd gladly take $4m and a chance to win year in year out, by at LEAST having a shot at the playoffs then signing with a preanneaul loser for $5.5m. For Lafrous Funny.... for a defenceman that was "6th in ice time for boston by far in the playoffs" he actually played 3 minutes more per game than the guy who was actually the 6th most used D on the Bruins, and that was Adam McQuaid. If you are gonna try and bring stats to prove your points, you could at least ensure that your stats are correct. ======================== For Habs29 Kaberle has been in the playoffs 7 times in his career. He's been in the Eastern Conference Final 3 times in his career. He's won the Stanley Cup once in his career. He has 39 career playoff points. He's not exactly comparable to Jay "never made the playoffs at any level of hockey" Bouwmeester. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for the guys he's comparable to in terms of salary.... here they are, all of the offensive Dmen with a salary cap hit within 500K either way. Clearly Better: Pitkanen, Streit, Wideman, Ehrhoff (note Streit signed 4 years ago under a much lower cap... Ehrhoff has a crazy front loaded deal) About the same: Liles, Gilbert, Meszaros, Goligoski (first 3 all signed under a munch lower cap) Clearly Worse than Kaberle: Jovanovski, Hainsey, Ballard, Zidlicky, Kubina, Spacek Hainsey, Ballard signed when cap was lower. Total Stanley Cup Wins in this group: 1 by Pavel Kubina.... not exactly the biggest group of "proven winners" out there. Kubina had 0 goals 4 assists in the playoffs of Tampa's Cup Win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Maybe we should get video of Holstrom in isolation and see if we can't follow his foot steps. Yes I have to believe they are worried about getting hurt. I go out and get a big defenseman 6'4" or preferably bigger who can serve adequetly as a #5-6 and I groom him in this role as the #7 as soon as he hits Hamilton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 But then I've also never understood why anyone would want to sign with losing teams that have always sucked. The compititor in me would think players would forgoe some cash for the chance to win. I'd gladly take $4m and a chance to win year in year out, by at LEAST having a shot at the playoffs then signing with a preanneaul loser for $5.5m. Easy to say when money is not in front of you and you have no idea what these players owe to ex wives and agents all that other shit. I always say the same thing but other places also offer nice weather and that type of stuff I think it would be pretty swell to play in Sunrise or Tampa. If you win great your a hero when you come back to Canada, if you lose oh well no one cares down there. And either way you are a millionaire and go unrecognized in public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Easy to say when money is not in front of you and you have no idea what these players owe to ex wives and agents all that other shit. I always say the same thing but other places also offer nice weather and that type of stuff I think it would be pretty swell to play in Sunrise or Tampa. If you win great your a hero when you come back to Canada, if you lose oh well no one cares down there. And either way you are a millionaire and go unrecognized in public. With some guys ie Kaberle blocking trades after spending a decade with the Leafs, there is also the aspect that he was loyal to the team. He only accepted the move in the final year of his contract. He may have felt that he was part of the solution and wanted to be a piece of a rebuilding club, and wanted to contribute to trying to help them get better, rather than being somebody else's hired gun at the deadline. But this is all just speculation, and I'm not gonna criticize a guy for what he is thinking, when I have no way of knowing exactly what it is. All I know is that on the ice, he's producing at a level that is fair based on his contract and the market value of that contract, and what other guys with similar production get paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It was a joke.The Caps would never move hamr for Kabby Nor would we move Kabby for Hamr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 With the constant losing, I really don't get why he and Sundin kept blocking trades. To me it just speaks to their desire to win and choosing the comfort of a losing environment over a dersire to win. I don't disagree, but I think you can insulate players like Kaberle with other competitors. A team of Kaberle's is awful. A smattering of Kaberle's won't hurt you. 1 Kaberle will help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Just a note to lafrous: I am NOT a 'pro-Gauthier' guy, but being anti-Gauthier need not mean attacking every single decision Gauthier makes, which is just mindless dogmatism. Habs29, I agree that Kaberle is not a guy who is going to propel a team up the standings single-handedly. But that's why his salary is not $6-7 million per year, which is what such a player should make. All I'm saying is he's a useful asset, agreeing with Commandant about his comparables and the relevant price-point. That he wanted to stay in TO is not a black mark to me at all. Loyalty is a good quality, and by this logic guys like Nash, markov, and Iginla are 'losers' as well for their commitment to organizations that were not self-evidently on the path to Cup glory when they committed to them long-term. I suspect that you're right insofar as Kaberle is a secondary piece (a fairly high-end secondary piece given his points totals). But let's face it, you love AK46 despite the fact that his career has been MUCH more second-rate than Kaberle's by any sane measure and want us to pay him MORE than Kaberle. So I'm not sure you're on firm ground here - much as I respect your loathing for all things Leafs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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