TurdBurglar Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 1 hour ago, GHT120 said: It's possible ... but I wonder how much the "well was poisoned" for the CBJs last season, and for Vincent as a HC, by the Babcock fiasco. The Babcock situation happened before the season started and was very short lived. If that's all it took to "poison the well" in CBJ, they have way bigger issues that nobody knows about. Can't use a two month offseason stint by a coach, who management supported right to the end, as an excuse for an entire sub-par season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 11 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said: The Babcock situation happened before the season started and was very short lived. If that's all it took to "poison the well" in CBJ, they have way bigger issues that nobody knows about. Can't use a two month offseason stint by a coach, who management supported right to the end, as an excuse for an entire sub-par season. Jared Bednar had one of the worst seasons ever when he took over the Avs when Patrick Roy left on the eve of the season. Despite that, they stuck with him and he's won a Cup with them. Vincent was absolutely sabotaged by having to take over the team in training camp. On top of that, they were a team that finished at the bottom of the standings the year before, so he didn't exactly get a lot of talent. Then they were massively injured. New GM wants a new coach, especially when the old coach wasn't even the first choice by anyone as coach, he simply got the job cause he was an assistant when Babcock imploded. I don't think that season is a fair representation of what Vincent is as a coach, not at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted July 19 Author Share Posted July 19 1 hour ago, Commandant said: Vincent was absolutely sabotaged by having to take over the team in training camp. On top of that, they were a team that finished at the bottom of the standings the year before, so he didn't exactly get a lot of talent. Then they were massively injured. New GM wants a new coach, especially when the old coach wasn't even the first choice by anyone as coach, he simply got the job cause he was an assistant when Babcock imploded. I don't think that season is a fair representation of what Vincent is as a coach, not at all. While it certainly wasn't the easiest situation, I've never bought the narrative that he didn't have any chance. Coaches take over teams mid season all the time and are able to adapt on the fly while installing their own system and culture. Vincent actually got a training camp to do that and had already been with the team for two years on top of that. Now, was he a lame duck once Jarmo got fired? I could see that argument. While I had hoped for team improvement in Columbus, I wasn't shocked that they were just as bad as ever. But my main concern with Vincent has how little individual growth there was. Outside of a few good stretches out of the Russian trio, there were a lot more negatives from their young players than positives. Pushing Fantilli to the wing. A lost season for Kent Johnson. Not being able to decide what to do with Jiricek. It really felt like a lost year for the development of the team's youth, which is the primary job of an AHL coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 2 hours ago, Fanpuck33 said: While I had hoped for team improvement in Columbus, I wasn't shocked that they were just as bad as ever. But my main concern with Vincent has how little individual growth there was. Outside of a few good stretches out of the Russian trio, there were a lot more negatives from their young players than positives. Pushing Fantilli to the wing. A lost season for Kent Johnson. Not being able to decide what to do with Jiricek. It really felt like a lost year for the development of the team's youth, which is the primary job of an AHL coach. While its true that players didn't develop, Vincent has addressed this. His mandate in the NHL last year was to win games. His mandate in the AHL is to develop players. He's done a good job in development in his previous AHL and QMJHL jobs so I'm not worried about that. He emphasized vets cause ownership wanted wins last year, despite him not having the horses to do that, especially in net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 6 minutes ago, Commandant said: While its true that players didn't develop, Vincent has addressed this. His mandate in the NHL last year was to win games. His mandate in the AHL is to develop players. He's done a good job in development in his previous AHL and QMJHL jobs so I'm not worried about that. He emphasized vets cause ownership wanted wins last year, despite him not having the horses to do that, especially in net. Had not heard those comments. I can't remember JP McConnell ever showing any kind of interest in the team, let alone involvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 we saw them fire Jarmo for poor results.... so yeah there was pressure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 10 hours ago, Commandant said: Jared Bednar had one of the worst seasons ever when he took over the Avs when Patrick Roy left on the eve of the season. Despite that, they stuck with him and he's won a Cup with them. Vincent was absolutely sabotaged by having to take over the team in training camp. On top of that, they were a team that finished at the bottom of the standings the year before, so he didn't exactly get a lot of talent. Then they were massively injured. New GM wants a new coach, especially when the old coach wasn't even the first choice by anyone as coach, he simply got the job cause he was an assistant when Babcock imploded. I don't think that season is a fair representation of what Vincent is as a coach, not at all. Roy had 3 season coaching Colorado, not just 2 months in the off-seasonr, massive difference. Also saying CBJ were bad the year before, then bad the year after, therefore Vincent was sabotaged? Fairly certain the Babcock hiring didn't signal CBJ were a massively better team. Not quite sure the whole point of your post to be entirely honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 10 hours ago, Commandant said: Jared Bednar had one of the worst seasons ever when he took over the Avs when Patrick Roy left on the eve of the season. Despite that, they stuck with him and he's won a Cup with them. Vincent was absolutely sabotaged by having to take over the team in training camp. On top of that, they were a team that finished at the bottom of the standings the year before, so he didn't exactly get a lot of talent. Then they were massively injured. New GM wants a new coach, especially when the old coach wasn't even the first choice by anyone as coach, he simply got the job cause he was an assistant when Babcock imploded. I don't think that season is a fair representation of what Vincent is as a coach, not at all. Roy had 3 season coaching Colorado, not just 2 months in the off-season, massive difference. Also saying CBJ were bad the year before, then bad the year after, therefore Vincent was sabotaged? Fairly certain the Babcock hiring didn't signal CBJ were a massively better team. Not quite sure the whole point of your post to be entirely honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 8 hours ago, Commandant said: we saw them fire Jarmo for poor results.... so yeah there was pressure Jarmo was fired more for the Babcock debacle - that's what broke the camel's back. Friedman talked about this. Ownership left mgmt do their thing, but didnt like being embarrassed. After that, jarmo was not going to stick around if they lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 6 hours ago, TurdBurglar said: Roy had 3 season coaching Colorado, not just 2 months in the off-seasonr, massive difference. Also saying CBJ were bad the year before, then bad the year after, therefore Vincent was sabotaged? Fairly certain the Babcock hiring didn't signal CBJ were a massively better team. Not quite sure the whole point of your post to be entirely honest. Yeah they were bad the year before shows that the team he took over had limited talent. You cant make chicken salad out of chicken shit. He didn't take over a playoff squad and run them into the ground. He took over a bad team and they remained at the same level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Im not saying the guy is Bowman, but Bowman himself couldnt take that roster to the playoffs. The starting goalie was an .897 and the backup was .887. Its also somehow Vincent's fault that Laine only played 18 games due to injury and then going into player assistance. Thats on coaching? What the ####? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 On 7/19/2024 at 8:54 PM, Commandant said: we saw them fire Jarmo for poor results.... so yeah there was pressure I think an involved owner would have fired both JD and Jarmo as soon as the Babcock situation went down. The Jarmo firing felt more like JD simply preventing Jarmo from making last ditch idiotic moves to try to save his job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 On 7/20/2024 at 2:28 AM, TurdBurglar said: Roy had 3 season coaching Colorado, not just 2 months in the off-seasonr, massive difference. Also saying CBJ were bad the year before, then bad the year after, therefore Vincent was sabotaged? Fairly certain the Babcock hiring didn't signal CBJ were a massively better team. Not quite sure the whole point of your post to be entirely honest. But what does the length of the previous tenure have to do with the comparison between Bednar and Vincent? And if we are going to make that comparison, it should be to Brad Larsen having the job for 2 years before Vincent. The real comparison is that Bednar and Vincent were both hired much deeper into the off-season than is normal, making their jobs harder. Bednar was hired 2-3 weeks before camp and Vincent just a few days before. I think you underestimate just how dysfunctional of an organization Columbus is. They without a doubt hired Mike Babcock with the intent of competing for a playoff spot last season. You don't replace Brad Larsen with a guy like Babcock to simply "continue the process." But even I didn't imagine that they placed winning ahead of development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Yes, they are a dysfunctional organization. So why are we blaming the Laine situation ane poor development of prospects at the NHL level on a coach who took over mid training camp? Thats my whole point. Dont blame him when it was a shitshow from top to bottom and he was handed the job last minute Look at his previous AHL and QMJHL experience which was successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanpuck33 Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 1 hour ago, Commandant said: Yes, they are a dysfunctional organization. So why are we blaming the Laine situation ane poor development of prospects at the NHL level on a coach who took over mid training camp? Thats my whole point. Dont blame him when it was a shitshow from top to bottom and he was handed the job last minute Look at his previous AHL and QMJHL experience which was successful. I mean yeah, you can cut anyone involved with Columbus some slack for poor performance because the whole place is a shitshow. But there's also the fact that he was part of the shitshow for 3 years not making anything better, seemingly making them worse. Like I said, many coaches have been able to change the room on a team with no training camp at all, so not having the job until September means nothing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 3 hours ago, Fanpuck33 said: But what does the length of the previous tenure have to do with the comparison between Bednar and Vincent? And if we are going to make that comparison, it should be to Brad Larsen having the job for 2 years before Vincent. Roy instilled a culture in the team in the 3 years he was there. To be a fair comparison you'd have to believe Babcock instilled the same level of culture to be equally disrupted by the change. I agree Larsen would be a better comparison, but the discussion was about Babcock's nearly non-existant tenure somehow sabotaging Vincent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 4 hours ago, TurdBurglar said: Roy instilled a culture in the team in the 3 years he was there. To be a fair comparison you'd have to believe Babcock instilled the same level of culture to be equally disrupted by the change. I agree Larsen would be a better comparison, but the discussion was about Babcock's nearly non-existant tenure somehow sabotaging Vincent. Its not babcock who sabotaged him. Its the whole org being a shitshow. You are so focused on Babcock, you are missing that he was never the point. It was the situation that sucked, the roster, the timing, a gm fired mid season, no goaltending, injuries. It was a situation no coach would have succeeded in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 28 minutes ago, Commandant said: Its not babcock who sabotaged him. Its the whole org being a shitshow. You are so focused on Babcock, you are missing that he was never the point. It was the situation that sucked, the roster, the timing, a gm fired mid season, no goaltending, injuries. It was a situation no coach would have succeeded in. I didn’t say Babcock sabotaged him. I said Babcocks’s non-existent tenure didn’t sabotage him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 37 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said: I didn’t say Babcock sabotaged him. I said Babcocks’s non-existent tenure didn’t sabotage him. Did you read anything i said? The part about a shit roster, no goaltending, injuries, a GM change at midseason, and just overall the organization being a shit show? Or do we just want to talk about Babcocks non existent tenure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 9 hours ago, Commandant said: Did you read anything i said? The part about a shit roster, no goaltending, injuries, a GM change at midseason, and just overall the organization being a shit show? Or do we just want to talk about Babcocks non existent tenure? You implied I was blaming Babcock for sabotaging Vincent, which is the opposite of what I've been saying all along. For someone who doesn't like words put in their mouth, you're more than willing to do it to others. I did read what you wrote, so cut the attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 1 hour ago, TurdBurglar said: You implied I was blaming Babcock for sabotaging Vincent I did no such thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 40 minutes ago, Commandant said: I did no such thing. 12 hours ago, Commandant said: Its not babcock who sabotaged him The only person that brought up Babcock sabotaging Vincent was you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 My whole point is no one sabotaged him, that the org being a shit show isnt sabotage. Read the whole post and you can see that. Jesus man.... move the #### on from this, its weird to think there was any sabotage at all. No one intentionally made the team lose, it just was a shit team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurdBurglar Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 4 minutes ago, Commandant said: My whole point is no one sabotaged him, that the org being a shit show isnt sabotage. Read the whole post and you can see that. That may of been most of your point, but you started by shoehorning in the implication. Just because you want to deflect away from it, doesn't mean you didn't do it. You were corrected, then got an attitude about it. Just be clear on what happened, regardless of what you want claim happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 50 minutes ago, TurdBurglar said: That may of been most of your point, but you started by shoehorning in the implication. Just because you want to deflect away from it, doesn't mean you didn't do it. You were corrected, then got an attitude about it. Just be clear on what happened, regardless of what you want claim happened. Or you dont know how to read what I wrote.... that's what happened, and then you claim I accused you of something I never did. I'm done with this cause it's ####ing stupid, and you keep accusing me of saying you did something and none of the posts you quote are me actually doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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