More belated Gainey credit

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Further to this, check out this splendid piece on Gomez:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/hock...1902/story.html

I haven't heard a habs being so positive about everything since Russ Courtnall anointed the Habs 'the best organization this side of heaven.' It's obvious he is a smooth media player, but this is relevant to the wider theme of this thread, which is that - in significant measure thanks to 'Mr. Gainey' (as Gomez calls him) - the word on Montreal is now that it's a great place to play.

[MK1]

A lot of the debate here is a bit bizarre. It seems blazingly clear to me that Bob Gainey was an integral part of the process of moving this franchise from a place where it was bottom of the barrel in every way, from on-ice to off-ice performance, to one of the crown jewels of the NHL as an overall operation. UFAs absolutely flocked here en masse last summer. Much of the poisonous air of mediocrity that enveloped this franchise in the past has dissipated (and yes, the 2007 season went a long way toward helping that; but of course Gainey was the builder of that particular team). For that matter, a GM left his job elsewhere to simply be our *coach.* You can argue this or that point, but the Habs are now a strong and respected franchise on ice and off. Gainey deserves a lot (not all) of the credit for that.

They flocked here last summer because Bob paid them top dollar and they needed a place to play. You think scooping Gomez for 7.5M was a brilliant manouvre? Camms for 6M and Gio for 5M, those guys all are getting paid at the absolute peak of their brackets, and in some cases higher.

Basically you are praising him for spending 100M of someone else's money and luring people by giving them exactly what they want .....

[bar]

The otherside is if Gomez didn't come, neither would of Cammy, nor Gionta. We weren't resigning the crew from last year, we would have had nothing. First line of Plek, Lats and Akost, second line Skost, Laps, Pax.

MK1, I think you're understating the role of the GM in signing players, in the past the habs have offered top dollar to only be left in the cold. It's more than just backing a dump truck full of money to a players doorstep to get them to sign.

Edited March 31, 2010 by bar

[nikohab]

Bottom line is that Mr.Bob gainey gas failed to address many of the issues and holes on the team. Bob failed to sign key players or get a good trade value (Souray-Streight-Ribiero-Koivu and the list goes on and on...). Now it also seems that we are also going to lose Plekanec in return for nothing and we can all keep thanking our previous G-M along with his staff. This club is still in a big mess with plenty of holes to fill let me also mention that I also think that Price will leave us as well. What is there to be greatful about Bob gainey? :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

They flocked here last summer because Bob paid them top dollar and they needed a place to play. You think scooping Gomez for 7.5M was a brilliant manouvre? Camms for 6M and Gio for 5M, those guys all are getting paid at the absolute peak of their brackets, and in some cases higher.

Basically you are praising him for spending 100M of someone else's money and luring people by giving them exactly what they want .....

First, I don't remember saying that picking up Gomez was a brilliant maneouver and the point is irrelevant to the matter at hand, which is the restoration of the franchise as a top place to be in the NHL. Second, when you factor in the tax differential, Gainey basically paid market rate for those guys, which means he in effect schooled all the other GMs out there in luring them. The point is that quality UFAs now want to play here. That's a good thing and speaks well to the perception of the organization among players. This is quite a change from years gone by and credit to Gainey for making it happen. The end.

(A double irony in your position is that it's long been standard practice to attack Gainey for 'failing' to lure UFAs. When he doesn't, he's attacked; when he does, he gets no credit. Hmmmm ).

[BCHabnut]

It isn't specifically Bob, but if you can't admit that the Habs are a better organanization as a whole, than 10 years ago, then you are a fool. The expectation is there to make the playoffs again, and we do it with regularity. Yes, the cups aren't rolling in like before, but we have a competitive team. Don't forget that Price was signed as the 5th overall in 2005. That's 5 years ago that we were the 5th worst team in the NHL! That isn't all that long ago. Considering that the team didn't do like many others and tank 3 years in a row to build prospects, I would say we've done not bad. Not great, but not bad. Bob will go down as the guy that helped dig this team out of the mire. Even though much of the credit should go to Andre Savard. The team was on it's way out, but aparently not completely. Price...5th pick...Habs 5th worst team... Gainey may have made some moves that in hindsight seemed shortsighted, but to the majority, the choices were based on sound reasoning.

Ribiero was a problem in the dressing room. He was given away and that was a mistake. At the time many people supported the decision. I was one of them. He was a cancer in my eyes. In hindsight, maybe a baysitter would have been a better option.

Souray was a question mark at the time, but making the playoffs is a business decision. The revenue generated is huge. We didn't make it that year, but we were one point away. It was a reasonable risk. The team would not have been close without him. We had the leagues best PP that year and his cannon helped that.

Streit was a different story. He was a seen as a utility guy who was rumoured to only want 3 million mid season. He was seen by the team as a PP specialist and #5 defenseman. This was certainly a mistake.

Many people were mad because of Ryder last year. Where are they now? I would say his biggest flaw was not signing mid season. He didn't grow with the industry. People get upset that player developement was poor, but in 07/08 the team was at the top of the Eastern conference at the end of the year and mostly with young guns. It wasn't until the next year that he saw the problem and eliminated all leadership. And now we are headed to the playoffs again probably. It is disapointing to be mediocre, but I like it more than being horrible like we were for ten year. Bob kept the organization heading in the right direction.

[Trizzak]

Don't forget that Price was signed as the 5th overall in 2005. That's 5 years ago that we were the 5th worst team in the NHL!

That was luck of the lottery the year after the lockout (when Pittsburgh won Crosby.) Montreal dropped down quite a few spots to get that pick.

[BCHabnut]

That was luck of the lottery the year after the lockout (when Pittsburgh won Crosby.) Montreal dropped down quite a few spots to get that pick.

Whoops, ya I forgot about the lockout. Hahaha, my whole theory blown. LOL

[saskhab]

Personally, I think more credit has to be given to George Gillett. He made a lot of the decisions that made this team more attractive: building up the management/scouting staffs, building a new state of the art practice facility, making the Bell Centre a guaranteed sell out with a ridiculous waiting list for season tickets... it all happened under his watch. Not surprisingly, the value of the franchise pretty much tripled in just 8/9 years.

All that, and he didn't meddle in the day-to-day operations. He let Boivon do his job, he let Gainey do his. It was Gillett who created this atmosphere... he was a fantastic owner.

[KoZed]

It isn't specifically Bob, but if you can't admit that the Habs are a better organanization as a whole, than 10 years ago, then you are a fool. The expectation is there to make the playoffs again, and we do it with regularity. Yes, the cups aren't rolling in like before, but we have a competitive team.

The thing is: 11 years ago (97-98) our goal was just to squeak in the playoffs and see what happens next. We did just that, beat Pittsburgh in the 1st round and got swept by the Sabres in the 2nd.

I dont see how the Habs as a hockey team (not as a hockey organization) is that much different than what we were a decade ago. Save for that one season where we won the Conference, it's be the same year after year: the goal is to make the playoffs and see what happens next. We only squeak in, manage to win a 1st round sometimes but never get past the 2nd round.

We missed the playoffs only once under Gainey, maybe that's what makes people overrate the team in comparison to what it was under Houle and Savard. That and a significantly better prospect pool. But ultimately the on-ice successes are barely better than what they were before Gainey. We went further in the playoffs in 2002 with AS as GM than in any other year under BG.

This year, again, we're seeing a team that is barely going to make or miss the playoffs. I dont understand how people can view that as a significant improvement over time.

The roster is better on paper, no doubt, but the results are the much the same. We were doing more with less 10 yrs ago.

[saskhab]

It's also tougher to compare. Back in the 90's, the East was littered with expansion franchises... it was easier to squeak into the playoffs because the bottom teams were horrible. Now there's less expansion teams.

Nevertheless, if Atlanta doesn't make the playoffs, it'll be 3 straight years in the East with only 10 different teams making up the playoff spots. 5 teams will have missed the playoffs each of the last 3 years (Toronto, Islanders, Atlanta, Florida, Tampa Bay). That's a bit of a statistical fluke (Florida missed last year thanks to a shootout loss to the Habs, the second tiebreak), but it's interesting that so many teams have been so bad that they can't even claw out one decent season in three.

[hab29RETIRED]

You'll never nor will Gainey be able to please ALL Canadiens fans. Fact is, we are the most demanding and greedy fans in the NHL. And, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Seriously, which other team has Dr. Jekyll (glass half full) and Mr. Hyde (half empty) fans and some also in the middle as much as we do?

Gainey could walk on water and that still wouldn't be enough.

The fans fo the team are just wbreflection of the jekyll and hyde performing nature of this team.

Edited April 1, 2010 by hab29RETIRED

[BTH]

For you and BTH (and anyone else who misunderstands, including those who think I'm saying Gainey was a terrific GM:

I don't believe this has nearly as much to do with the on-ice product as it has to do with the fact that Montreal was a Mickey Mouse organization from the top down during the Houle era, and only turned a corner when first Savard, then Gillett and Gainey brought respectability back to the franchise as a whole. Repeat: this is not about Gainey's moves at GM, more about him making the franchise respectable rather than a laughing stock.

Oh, and Koz, I think you need a little more short-term memory. Seems he lured Cammalleri here this past summer, and Cammi was one of the highest rated players available. So, while he struck out earlier in his tenure, he succeeded at the end - and I think that further proves the point that Montreal went from joke franchise to what it is today.

BTH, as to the Leafs, I'm not sure players would call the franchise great - better than it was a few years ago with Burke in charge, but not great. I feel Burke will bring a level of respectability that franchise has been missing in the last while. JF Jr. 'Nuff said there.

Anyhow, I know how this board feels the need to be contrary to everything posted rather than actually saying, yeah, that could very well be a good point. I will assume that, deep down, in places you don't care to admit exist, BTH and Koz both agree that Gainey did bring more respectability to this franchise. Because honestly, if you don't think that, then I think you're both on some drugs that I want no part of.

I didn't disagree that Gainey brought some respectability to the organization. I only said that this poll had nothing to do with that. Seeing as Montreal is not at the top of the standings (like the #1 and #2 picks are), they were probably chosen because players respect the history and legacy of the club, not because Gainey's presence somehow turned our organization into a more respectable one than anyone else.

Lou Lamoriello has GM-ed great teams for years now and has been a stable, respectable presence in New Jersey and yet NJ isn't placed as high as Montreal. The difference is that hockey has less history and is less popular in New Jersey - a fact that has absolutely nothing to do with the performance of the team's GMs.

It just seemed like a stretch and a random opportunity for you to praise Gainey based on a news story that seems totally irrelevant.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

The thing is: 11 years ago (97-98) our goal was just to squeak in the playoffs and see what happens next. We did just that, beat Pittsburgh in the 1st round and got swept by the Sabres in the 2nd.

I dont see how the Habs as a hockey team (not as a hockey organization) is that much different than what we were a decade ago. Save for that one season where we won the Conference, it's be the same year after year: the goal is to make the playoffs and see what happens next. We only squeak in, manage to win a 1st round sometimes but never get past the 2nd round.

We missed the playoffs only once under Gainey, maybe that's what makes people overrate the team in comparison to what it was under Houle and Savard. That and a significantly better prospect pool. But ultimately the on-ice successes are barely better than what they were before Gainey. We went further in the playoffs in 2002 with AS as GM than in any other year under BG.

This year, again, we're seeing a team that is barely going to make or miss the playoffs. I dont understand how people can view that as a significant improvement over time.

The roster is better on paper, no doubt, but the results are the much the same. We were doing more with less 10 yrs ago.

Gilett was a key factor, no doubt. KoZed, you concede that the Habs are better organizationally, which (as I see it anyway) is the main point of this thread; so there's agreement there.

The Gainey era has seen the Habs emerge as a consistent playoff team. On the one level, as you rightly point out, that's lame, because the goal is to contend not just participate; on the other, as Gainey pointed out in his retirement press conference, making the dance consistently is a hard thing to do year after year in today's NHL. It's not a negligible feat and is certainly part of the reason UFAs now want to come here (Montreal is a 'playoff team'). Also, it shouldn't be forgotten that gainey's tenure was punctuated by a 3rd overall performance (2007-08) followed by a season in which the Habs were almost universally regarded as Cup contenders until the baffling and catastrophic collapse of Winter 09. In terms of on-ice performance, then, Gainey took this team right to the edge of true elite status; then the wheels fell off. It's obviously relevant, in considering Gainey's overall legacy, that the wheels did fall off. But it's also relevant that he was the first GM since 1994 to bring us to the cusp of bona-fide world-beating status. In short, I would suggest that Gainey's on-ice results WERE markedly better than what went before, even if they fell short of what we all wanted.