Habs facing Huge summer

[Wamsley01]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hock...article1583400/

Interesting take from Sean Gordon and James Mirtle in regards to Halak. Things I have never heard

before. They are inferring that Halak wants out of Montreal because he feels slighted and that he may

make things difficult for the Habs allowing them to get a PR break if they deal him.

It was also refreshing to hear a talking head use their brain and refer to the fact that Price will be paid

peanuts and that the 2.2M cap number is misleading because he didn't hit his bonuses.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Wamsley01

[Habsfan]

Thanks for posting this, It was really good!

[lazy26]

Nice podcast. I've found the G&M sports to be of better quality recently.

[PMAC]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hock...article1583400/

Interesting take from Sean Gordon and James Mirtle in regards to Halak. Things I have never heard

before. They are inferring that Halak wants out of Montreal because he feels slighted and that he may

make things difficult for the Habs allowing them to get a PR break if they deal him.

It was also refreshing to hear a talking head use their brain and refer to the fact that Price will be paid

peanuts and that the 2.2M cap number is misleading because he didn't hit his bonuses.

Another take on what the Habs will do this summer.

I think Hickey's take is pretty good, but I hope that he is wrong about the Habs not being able to afford Moore. I am hoping after his horrible experience last season with FLA he will take a 3yr term at a discount to stay in MTL. Who knows?

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Deci...0806/story.html

[BCHabnut]

Another take on what the Habs will do this summer.

I think Hickey's take is pretty good, but I hope that he is wrong about the Habs not being able to afford Moore. I am hoping after his horrible experience last season with FLA he will take a 3yr term at a discount to stay in MTL. Who knows?

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Deci...0806/story.html

I know. I hated to see that. I really like Moore.

[Wamsley01]

I know. I hated to see that. I really like Moore.

Hickey dismisses buying out Hamrlik because he will be needed for Markov's absence early

in the season. Is he kidding?

He would rather run the risk of losing Plekanec or somebody else for a matter of a couple of months?

Hamrlik is gone. If he isn't, say goodbye to one of Halak or Plekanec because they cannot afford

either of them if Hamrlik's 5.5M albatross is not turned into a 1.7M buyout. That $4M alone can

make up for Halak's or Pleks raise.

If Hamrlik is bought out and White, Subban and some other youngsters are brought up, the Habs

can retain 90% of the core that made the semi-final run.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Wamsley01

[ForumGhost]

If the Habs want to lose Hamrlik, they will have to add another defenceman via trade or free agency. Big contract or no, he is a huge stabilizing force on the back end, a role Subban is nowhere near ready for. If the Habs can't replace him, they will be forced to keep him.

Edited May 28, 2010 by ForumGhost

[BCHabnut]

If the Habs want to lose Hamrlik, they will have to add another defenceman via trade or free agency. Big contract or no, he is a huge stabilizing force on the back end, a role Subban is nowhere near ready for. If the Habs can't replace him, they will be forced to keep him.

I don't know. Spacek has been playing the right side all year. He will better on the left side.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I don't know. Spacek has been playing the right side all year. He will better on the left side.

Yep. I think you have to gamble that we can survive two months without Markov and Hammer. It's an alarming thought, but you can't make longer-term decisions based on two months. What you do is move Spacek to his proper side and hope for gains there; then go with a defence-by-committee arrangement, hoping the forwards will backcheck like they did this playoff, actually trusting O'Byrne with some regular playing time, perhaps re-signing Mara at cut rates, crossing your fingers that Subban can eat major minutes, continuing to throw MAB out there on the PP if he signs for cheap, using Scott Gomez to lead the rush out of our zone whenever possible - and most of all, if you still have Halak, rely on a goalie who has proven he can excel when he gets barraged.

Another option is to trade a Kostitsyn for a young, cheap defenceman a la Gorges. If possible. Then when Markov returns, try to move one of the D for help elsewhere.

In short, better to try other options than mindlessly re-signing Hammer. His salary MUST be redistributed elsewhere.

I do not believe Pyatt will go. He's a Martin favourite.

On another note, can I ask why noone ever mentions David Desharnais as a possible cog in our roster going forward? 78 points in 60 games and a very strong showing in his brief call-up with ye habs. I know he's yet another shrimp, but if he looks good, he gives you an offensive option and some flexibility to make a trade.

Finally: the possible departure of Kirk Muller raises the question of why the Habs don't promote Boucher to assistant coach. I know he will likely get a head coaching offer, but the chance to be an assistant might make a more logical progression as well as position him even more perfectly as JM's next successor. Is this not a possibility?

[Habsy]

I keep hearing Brock Trotter is ready as well. The word is many scouts believe he can play in the NHL next season.

[lazy26]

On another note, can I ask why noone ever mentions David Desharnais as a possible cog in our roster going forward? 78 points in 60 games and a very strong showing in his brief call-up with ye habs. I know he's yet another shrimp, but if he looks good, he gives you an offensive option and some flexibility to make a trade.

Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head; it's the size thing. But really, I was underwhelmed during his brief stints in the NHL... He just didn't seem ready to make the jump. But I am looking forward to see what he does come September.

[Prime Minister Koivu]

That was a great podcast.

If Halak wants out then that solves that problem. It may not be what we want but it solves the problem. We can trade him or negotiate an offer sheet situation with another team. If that report is false and Halak wants to stay then Gauthier has a tough decision to make. If we resign Halak (probably 4 million), do we continue to let him and Price fight for the number one spot or does Price simply sit as the backup? I don't think either goalie wants that. I don't want to trade Price.

Halak wanting out solves a really tough decision.

If we want to resign Plekanec then Hammer must go. I think that Plex will take offers on July 1st. We might be able to resign him still but I don't see a "hometown discount" situation, we will have to out bid other teams. With that in mind how much more would Marleau cost?

I would rather play and develop Weber than resign MAB (even if really cheap).

I would welcome both Moore and Pyatt back.

July will be interesting.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Halak might want out. I could understand that, although he also seems to be overlooking the fact that under Jacques Martin, the goaltending position finally became a pure meritocracy: the guy who played best got the starts. But yeah, if he does want to go, it makes management's job easier.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Plekanec wants to stay but 'only at market rate.' Fair enough, but if Pleks starts taking offers, he will probably command upwards of $6 mil. At that point, I think we really should drop him and go after Marleau, who is a better fit given team needs, or else take our chances with Trotter + a Koivu-type patch-up signing as backup. Even 5.5 for Pleks is a stretch (although, as I've said, I'd pay that).

The frustrating thing about the Plekanec situation is that Ryan Kesler is the obvious comparable...and Kesler commands exactly $5 million per. The rumours have Pleks signing for more than that. Looked at rationally, this makes no sense, because Kesler is a significantly better player: bigger, tougher, yet equally fast and young and at least as effective offensively and defensively. So more than $5 million for Plekanec makes NO sense really. I suppose the inflated figures for Plekanec are a product of him happening to go UFA in a year with a thin talent pool. Bad luck there.

Edited May 29, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[dlbalr]

So more than $5 million for Plekanec makes NO sense really. I suppose the inflated figures for Plekanec are a product of him happening to go UFA in a year with a thin talent pool. Bad luck there.

Makes perfect sense - Plekanec is a UFA, Kesler an RFA, Plekanec has the threat of going to the open market, Kesler didn't have that leverage.

[nikohab]

I always knew for certain that Plek's would not stay in montreal so I cannot comprehend why management held on to him this long and failed to trade him when they had the chance. When Plek's signs elsewhere I would be very interested to see what reply they will give to us. If Koivu wouldn't mind coming back here I would sign him for sure. As for Price we can all do him a big favor and package him with a few other players ( AK'S ) and trade him to a western conference team. Maybe we can go and get Holmstrom and also Franzen which would be 2 good additions and last but not least we must keep Moore and Pyatt.

[bar]

Haha wow cart before the horse, how silly is your post going to be when Plek resigns? A gm must be the worst job ever, you can never make people happy.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Haha wow cart before the horse, how silly is your post going to be when Plek resigns? A gm must be the worst job ever, you can never make people happy.

Yeah, here's a guy who regrets NOT throwing away this playoff run so we could trade Pleks instead of trying to sign him It never ceases to amaze me to see how many fans genuinely desire for the Habs to be continually trading away their best players just entering their prime, for picks and young guys who they will in turn demand be traded for more picks and young guys. They want us to be the Edmonton Oilers circa 1997.

dlbalr, thanks for that clarification. If kesler was RFA then 5.5 for Pleks as a UFA does make perfect sense. My bad.

Edited May 29, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[BCHabnut]

Yeah, here's a guy who regrets NOT throwing away this playoff run so we could trade Pleks instead of trying to sign him It never ceases to amaze me to see how many fans genuinely desire for the Habs to be continually trading away their best players just entering their prime, for picks and young guys who they will in turn demand be traded for more picks and young guys. They want us to be the Edmonton Oilers circa 1997.

dlbalr, thanks for that clarification. If kesler was RFA then 5.5 for Pleks as a UFA does make perfect sense. My bad.

No, I still think Plek is a 4.5 mill rfa, 5 mill ufa. Kessler is the better player between the two. They are very similar, but I watch a lot of Canucks hockey, and Kessler is really good. He should be their captain.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

No, I still think Plek is a 4.5 mill rfa, 5 mill ufa. Kessler is the better player between the two. They are very similar, but I watch a lot of Canucks hockey, and Kessler is really good. He should be their captain.

No question Kesler's better - I see lots of Canucks too - but if he got $5 mil as an RFA, presumably he could have gotten substantially more as a UFA especially after the season he had. If he were on the open market this summer, he'd bag $6 mil easy. $5.5 for Pleks in that context does make some sort of comprehensible sense. It's just sheer luck that the Canucks got to lock up Kesler while he was still improving, while the Habs faced the dilemma of a Pleks who had scored 39 points last summer and couldn't possibly have locked him up under those circumstances. Timing is all.

[Wamsley01]

No question Kesler's better - I see lots of Canucks too - but if he got $5 mil as an RFA, presumably he could have gotten substantially more as a UFA especially after the season he had. If he were on the open market this summer, he'd bag $6 mil easy. $5.5 for Pleks in that context does make some sort of comprehensible sense. It's just sheer luck that the Canucks got to lock up Kesler while he was still improving, while the Habs faced the dilemma of a Pleks who had scored 39 points last summer and couldn't possibly have locked him up under those circumstances. Timing is all.

That is one of the problems I had with Gainey's tenure, his conservative approach to his RFAs.

When you sign them to 1 year deals you miss out on opportunities to lock in players for cheaper rates.

After Pleks 2008 season why didn't the Habs sign him to a 4-5 year deal for 4M per? They did this with

Ryder, Higgins, Komisarek, Streit, Halak. These are all players in your own organization who you should

have a strong understanding of their future potential.

Anybody can wait for a player to perform and then sign them to a deal, the shrewd GMs are the ones

who consistently unearth the hidden gems or sign players long term with overvalued contracts in year

1 and 2 but benefit from year 3-5 when they are a bargain.

Somebody like Ryan Getzlaf is locked in for 5.3M for another 3 seasons. He is the 20th highest paid center

and will be a huge bargain over the next 3 seasons.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

That is one of the problems I had with Gainey's tenure, his conservative approach to his RFAs.

When you sign them to 1 year deals you miss out on opportunities to lock in players for cheaper rates.

After Pleks 2008 season why didn't the Habs sign him to a 4-5 year deal for 4M per? They did this with

Ryder, Higgins, Komisarek, Streit, Halak. These are all players in your own organization who you should

have a strong understanding of their future potential.

Anybody can wait for a player to perform and then sign them to a deal, the shrewd GMs are the ones

who consistently unearth the hidden gems or sign players long term with overvalued contracts in year

1 and 2 but benefit from year 3-5 when they are a bargain.

Somebody like Ryan Getzlaf is locked in for 5.3M for another 3 seasons. He is the 20th highest paid center

and will be a huge bargain over the next 3 seasons.

Your point is valid of course. But then again, do we really wish that Gainey had locked in Higgins, Ryder, and Kostitsyn for 5 years at (say) $4 mil per? As for Pleks, do you think he would have signed for significant term coming off an awful season like that when he was massively undervalued? (Streit and Komi, on the other hand, would have been nice signings). On balance, I'd say while Gainey's approach was costly in some cases, in others it saved us from locking in several promising players who turned out to be pieces of crap. Part of his reticence may have been a dawning awareness that many of the key cogs in the rebuild were not the diamond stuff of which winners can be made.

Edited May 30, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[nikohab]

I cannot excuse Bob Gainey for getting nothing in return for players such as souray, streit, komisarek......Any reasonable gm would have gotten something in return for these players such as picks or some good prospects at the very least but getting nothing in return is unacceptable and poor management decisions. Now we are faced with the same situation with Pleks and guess what rumors have it that he might sign with the toronto maple laughs (Pierre McGuire).

[Habsy]

I cannot excuse Bob Gainey for getting nothing in return for players such as souray, streit, komisarek......Any reasonable gm would have gotten something in return for these players such as picks or some good prospects at the very least but getting nothing in return is unacceptable and poor management decisions. Now we are faced with the same situation with Pleks and guess what rumors have it that he might sign with the toronto maple laughs (Pierre McGuire).

Ah c'mon, the 3 you mentioned, couldn't be traded. We were in playoff battles. Komisarek was a our home grown future captain. Any reasonable GM?? How many, in this market, would have the balls to trade one of those players? let alone all three. Bob made mistakes, and when we lose Plex this summer, I suppose it'll be considered another. Yet Plex was a key player, to get us into the dance.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Habsy

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Ah c'mon, the 3 you mentioned, couldn't be traded. We were in playoff battles. Komisarek was a our home grown future captain. Any reasonable GM?? How many, in this market, would have the balls to trade one of those players? let alone all three. Bob made mistakes, and when we lose Plex this summer, I suppose it'll be considered another. Yet Plex was a key player, to get us into the dance.

Well, I wouldn't argue that Gainey's asset management was above reproach. I thought the case of Souray was understandable because we were in a playoff race, but I still supported trading him at the deadline because that team, even if it had made the playoffs, had no reasonable chance of doing any damage at all. Better to move Souray and reclaim assets. Komisarek would have been ridiculous to trade because there was NO WAY any GM could have blown up a team for the stretch drive during the Habs' 100th anniversary. Tanking simply was not an option that year, no matter what happened. However, Wamsley is correct that in hindsight it would have been wise of Bob to lock up Komi long term when he was RFA.

With Streit, the error was not in failing to trade him; in fact we had a real chance of going all the way that year, so trading him would have been irresponsible (just as trading Huet that year was irresponsible and arguably cost us the series against Philly). No, the error with Streit was in failing to lock him up as an RFA and then compounding the mistake by not signing him as a UFA. However, it's worth remembering that there was near-unanimity on this board and elsewhere that Streit was terrible defensively and not worth signing, sort of an early version of MAB. Anyone can be a genius (and criticize others) with hindsight.

Gainey's failing may have been an unduly rigid approach to RFA signings. He did seem to have a philosophy of not locking up RFAs. This was a reasonable, principled philosophy, because if you sign a player too soon in his career, you risk getting burned by paying for potential that never materializes (Higgins, the Kostitsyns, Ryder and even Komisarek are all object lessons here); and the player risks locking for the long term below value (Kesler). Nonetheless, you also need to make exceptions where warranted. Had we locked up Streit as an RFA we'd now be laughing our heads off.

It's a mixed record, but that's why anybody who makes blanket declarations that Gainey was either a genius or an idiot in managing RFA/UFA assets is off-target. Whether Bob did more good than harm in this respect is a complicated question calling for balanced judgement.

Edited May 30, 2010 by The Chicoutimi Cucumber

[hab29RETIRED]

Well, I wouldn't argue that Gainey's asset management was above reproach. I thought the case of Souray was understandable because we were in a playoff race, but I still supported trading him at the deadline because that team, even if it had made the playoffs, had no reasonable chance of doing any damage at all. Better to move Souray and reclaim assets. Komisarek would have been ridiculous to trade because there was NO WAY any GM could have blown up a team for the stretch drive during the Habs' 100th anniversary. Tanking simply was not an option that year, no matter what happened. However, Wamsley is correct that in hindsight it would have been wise of Bob to lock up Komi long term when he was RFA.

With Streit, the error was not in failing to trade him; in fact we had a real chance of going all the way that year, so trading him would have been irresponsible (just as trading Huet that year was irresponsible and arguably cost us the series against Philly). No, the error with Streit was in failing to lock him up as an RFA and then compounding the mistake by not signing him as a UFA. However, it's worth remembering that there was near-unanimity on this board and elsewhere that Streit was terrible defensively and not worth signing, sort of an early version of MAB. Anyone can be a genius (and criticize others) with hindsight.

Gainey's failing may have been an unduly rigid approach to RFA signings. He did seem to have a philosophy of not locking up RFAs. This was a reasonable, principled philosophy, because if you sign a player too soon in his career, you risk getting burned by paying for potential that never materializes (Higgins, the Kostitsyns, Ryder and even Komisarek are all object lessons here); and the player risks locking for the long term below value (Kesler). Nonetheless, you also need to make exceptions where warranted. Had we locked up Streit as an RFA we'd now be laughing our heads off.

It's a mixed record, but that's why anybody who makes blanket declarations that Gainey was either a genius or an idiot in managing RFA/UFA assets is off-target. Whether Bob did more good than harm in this respect is a complicated question calling for balanced judgement.

You can't compare Streit to MAB. Unlike MAB, Streit was never really given a fair chance to play defence in Montreal. Moreover, Strit actually complemented Markov in running the PP. MAB only had a shot, but no hockey sense or a brain, as he rarely knew what to do with the puck when he wasn't going to shoot it. In Streit's case, he has said in interivews that he wanted to stay in Montreal and in his UFA year he had actually approaced the habs about resigning in november for around $2.5M, but it was more of a policy issue of not renegotiating during the year - which to me is stupidity - that is the really the only window teams have to exclusivey negotiate with their players. While its true that they CAN negotiation once the season is over, what incentive is there for the player not to wait for July 1st, other then injuring themselves on the treadmill or something???

IMO you need to lock up your young players when they are RFA's. The biggest issue I had with Gainey was the short term deals and that he was behind the curve in locking up young players. Worst come to worst, he could have always moved Komi, NYR were still able to move a pricy Higgins and others, becuase they were signed assets.

I do disagree that trading Komi was not an option in the centenial year. Post all-star game, that team had no pulse at all. I would have been surprised if they didn't get swept by Bruins - they were THAT bad!! You had the oppertunity to pick up a young prosepect like Gorges (from the Rivet trade - which IMO was one of the only 2-3 trades that Gainey won outright).

I also hated the annual one year deals to Ryder. Personally, Ryder personified what has been wrong with the habs for too long. Lack of consistent EFFORT. Yeas he consistently put up between 25-30 goals, but really there was always a lack of consistent EFFORT. I get goal scorers are going to slump, but Ryder never CONSISTENTLY gave a solid EFFORT or used his size. He should have been moved long before his UFA year.

Edited May 30, 2010 by hab29RETIRED