JoeLassister Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Gaston Therrien on RDS during Canada-Russia 1st intermission : "On parle d'Emelin à Montréal l'an prochain, mais si j'étais le Canadien, je ne lui accorderais pas beaucoup de millions tout de suite. Après ce qu'on a vu aujourd'hui, Emelin n'est pas celui qui peut remplacer Markov." Rough translation : "People talk about Emelin coming to play for Montreal next season, but if I was the Canadien, I would not give him millions already. After what we saw today (keep in mind the 1st intermission thing, let alone how idiot it is to judge a player on one game), Emelin is not the one who could replace Markov." How idiot can you sound on tv ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazy26 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Gaston Therrien on RDS during Canada-Russia 1st intermission : "On parle d'Emelin à Montréal l'an prochain, mais si j'étais le Canadien, je ne lui accorderais pas beaucoup de millions tout de suite. Après ce qu'on a vu aujourd'hui, Emelin n'est pas celui qui peut remplacer Markov." Rough translation : "People talk about Emelin coming to play for Montreal next season, but if I was the Canadien, I would not give him millions already. After what we saw today (keep in mind the 1st intermission thing, let alone how idiot it is to judge a player on one game), Emelin is not the one who could replace Markov." How idiot can you sound on tv ? lol. Quite an observation, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 But this is how Stanley Cups are won. If we all got to wait until a player develops to make our decisions, we would all be GMs. Everybody looks at things in hindsight and says, wow, what a genius that GM was in allowing veteran A to leave when he had youngster B to fill the hole. C.C, I don't see optimism in this post, I see "I am going to protect myself from pain, just in case the worst case scenario unfolds" attitude that has permeated through this franchise for the better part of a decade. It happened all season. They are done now that Halak is gone. They are done now that Markov is gone. They are done now that Gorges is gone. They are done now that Pacioretty is gone. They are done now after blowing that 2-0 lead on the Bruins. They are done now trailing 2-1 late in Game 7. They had 9-10 different occasions where the citizens of this board buried them and left them for dead, are we going to spend another season of this? This team should have beaten the Bruins and now the Bruins are favourites to reach the Cup Final. The Habs have a young core, two potential superstars and now positive rumours of Emelin coming over is met with more negativity. Over and over this fanbase buries its young before realizing that they are still kicking. What if Markov gets injured again? Well what if Weber is Streit 2.0 and Emelin does come over and is a solid 4th with a mean streak that keeps teams honest? What if Pacioretty returns fully healthy and continues to develop? What if Desharnais is actually a legit top 6? What if Gomez just had a bad season and bounces back to 60 pts? What if Kristo/Tinordi/Leblanc are further ahead than we anticipated? What if Price makes another leap next season? For every negative possibility there remains an unknown positive that could happen. You are painting a picture like the Habs need their main core to have career seasons like 2008 in order to be good. In September nobody thought Pacioretty would amount to anything or that Subban would be more than a 6th guy easing into the league. Price was a major question mark and most thought he wouldn't be able to handle the pressure. Every team still playing is getting performances that they didn't expect in September. Tampa didn't even have Roloson. Thomas started the season in a tandem. Couture wasn't expected to be a top 6 forward. Vancouver didn't expect that they would be in the Conference Final with zero production from the Sedins and Kesler playing his face off. Be positive. You were the one saying this was a stealth rebuild two years ago and now that it is working and you seem to be right, you are pointing out how it could fail. This is the best position the Habs have been in since the 1998 season. I am going to sit back and enjoy. I have spent years looking for reasons they will fail and it didn't make me feel any better when they ultimately did fail, Ha ha, well consider me abashed In my defence, though, all I'm really saying is that I'm not sure this configuration is an improvement. You're right that if the young players continue to progress and Markov stays healthy, who knows, we could make a run (and as I recall you and I agreed that the team should have been rated an outside contender even this season). Recalling that my previous (possibly cap-naive) candidates for addition to the blueline were Bieksa or Wisniewski, though, you can see where adding Emelin is a slight come-down. And note that IF the goal is Rebuild 2.0 this is an impeccable move. Ultimately, though, I think we're better than that. Contention next season is not out of reach if management is deft enough and we get a few breaks. So I'm not content just to see this as a rebuild. In any case, Gauthier is just getting started so it's waaay premature to draw any conclusions. If Emelin yields cap savings sufficient for us to add a useful extra forward, for instance, suddenly this looks like a superb piece of cap management. I prefer to think of my attitude as 'cautious' rather than as paranoid pessimism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wamsley01 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Ha ha, well consider me abashed In my defence, though, all I'm really saying is that I'm not sure this configuration is an improvement. You're right that if the young players continue to progress and Markov stays healthy, who knows, we could make a run (and as I recall you and I agreed that the team should have been rated an outside contender even this season). Recalling that my previous (possibly cap-naive) candidates for addition to the blueline were Bieksa or Wisniewski, though, you can see where adding Emelin is a slight come-down. And note that IF the goal is Rebuild 2.0 this is an impeccable move. Ultimately, though, I think we're better than that. Contention next season is not out of reach if management is deft enough and we get a few breaks. So I'm not content just to see this as a rebuild. In any case, Gauthier is just getting started so it's waaay premature to draw any conclusions. If Emelin yields cap savings sufficient for us to add a useful extra forward, for instance, suddenly this looks like a superb piece of cap management. I prefer to think of my attitude as 'cautious' rather than as paranoid pessimism Anything with a healthy Markov is an improvement. Wiz was a bridge, not a legit replacement. He is nowhere near the puck mover, defensive player and does not possess the offensive instincts Markov does. Outside of Subban, Hamrlik was the only one who made regular intelligent pinches and back door plays. Wiz was Souray light. Spacek/Gorges/Weber Markov/Emelin Subban/Gill That is a better defense than what they had last season. If 18 minute Hamrlik was going to play for 82 games, then maybe it isn't, but Hamrlik tired and playing 23-25 minutes is a mistake machine and that was the role he played for the majority of the season+playoffs. Even if this is a lateral move today, there is room for improvement over the next 2-3 years. In order for that core not to improve over the next 3 seasons you would need to have Subban/Weber and Emelin have their career progression halted in their early to mid 20s. The two guys who will suffer some decline in that 3 year period would be the most replaceable short term contract guys in Gill and Spacek. Now contrast that to this years D. Hamrlik is definitely declining and Wiz is 27 and signing him would be paying him for 50+ points he put up this season, anything less than that constitutes overpaying (ala, Gomez). Add in Spacek and Gill and there is ZERO room for improvement outside of Subban/Weber moving forward. If Gill can help bridge the gap until TInordi is ready to apprentice on the blueline then it can continue to move forward. It is a defense that can provide the basis for a prolonged contender run if Emelin is 75% of what he is expected to be. Guys like Emelin are exactly the types of players that show up in Detroit out of nowhere and everybody wonders "who the ###### is this guy?". Nobody outside of Montreal has been waiting for this guy or knows who he is. I understand the reluctance to believe Emelin is coming, but if he does it alters Gauthier's off-season plan dramatically. Plus, anybody who owns a Sergei Kostitsyn jersey can just peel of the name plate and replace it with EMELIN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Loved Wamsley's post Personally I do not want him on Montreal. Montreal is and should always be a finesse team, a fast team, a team who does not take cheap shots. If he has a mean streak well he can take his services to another team. Sure, sign him, then trade his ass and pick up a prospect who could turn into someone great! There are too many "mean streak" players in the league and if I see a hab give a head shot like we have seen from Chara or Cooke, or step on someones skate like Ryan, we'll I'd be disgusted. This is not the image I want for our team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCHabnut Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I welcome someone with an edge. I don't want to encourage it, but I have had enough of Boston and Flyer's cheap shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 wamsley is dead right. My opinion is Yemelin is a hitter not really a cheap shot artiste. We could use another hitter, however he like PK will have to be controlled in his approach. But yeah he is one viscious hitter and that we could use. Anybody like what Subban did to that numbnuts from Boston (marchand I think?) We need a more of that to get this team going. Wiz is good but will be too expensive I fear. I don't think anybody here would have kicked Scott Stevens off their team. He was a hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy Ryder Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 A cheap contract entry level for one year, one way or a release clause for a guy who can play at international level no other Montreal D(except Markov) can do that. Low risk high reward for Habs. If he crack the line up they save millions. Hope they lock him. And then sign Jagr for one year . Gauthier should stop by Finland and convince Ramo to sign. He's been a beast out there, of course we have a Price but how many good trade value we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 A cheap contract entry level for one year, one way or a release clause for a guy who can play at international level no other Montreal D(except Markov) can do that. Low risk high reward for Habs. If he crack the line up they save millions. Hope they lock him. And then sign Jagr for one year . Gauthier should stop by Finland and convince Ramo to sign. He's been a beast out there, of course we have a Price but how many good trade value we have. Ramo has already signed on for 2 more years in the KHL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Loved Wamsley's post Personally I do not want him on Montreal. Montreal is and should always be a finesse team, a fast team, a team who does not take cheap shots. If he has a mean streak well he can take his services to another team. Sure, sign him, then trade his ass and pick up a prospect who could turn into someone great! There are too many "mean streak" players in the league and if I see a hab give a head shot like we have seen from Chara or Cooke, or step on someones skate like Ryan, we'll I'd be disgusted. This is not the image I want for our team. My memory is a little foggy, but in your memory when was the last time a finesse team won the Stanley Cup? I think you got to go back to Gretz in Edmonton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 My memory is a little foggy, but in your memory when was the last time a finesse team won the Stanley Cup? I think you got to go back to Gretz in Edmonton. Edmonton had Linesman, McSorley and Semenko. Later Tikkanen and Buekeboom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 My memory is a little foggy, but in your memory when was the last time a finesse team won the Stanley Cup? I think you got to go back to Gretz in Edmonton. All teams needs some form of 4th or 3rd line energy and checkers, but not someone who will get suspensions and give the team a bad rap. I love energy guys who will run around and throw hits and guys who will stick up for their teammates, but not players that will do cheap shots away from the play or retaliate hurt someone or just get bad penalties. Discipline is what we need, considering how many penalties we took this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 A cheap contract entry level for one year, one way or a release clause for a guy who can play at international level no other Montreal D(except Markov) can do that. Low risk high reward for Habs. If he crack the line up they save millions. Hope they lock him. And then sign Jagr for one year . It ain't going to be a cheap contract, that's for sure. Though he surely won't get the 3.75+ million some were reporting today, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he gets half of that. Also, no entry-level deal can be a 1 way pact, that's why it's called entry level. Without the bonus cushion next year, those bonuses will count against the upper limit. What's the difference? This year, the Habs could spend up to $59.4 million in salaries (cap hit - bonuses). Next year (assuming the same cap for this example), they can spend up to $59.4 million in cap hit (all bonuses included in that figure). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 It ain't going to be a cheap contract, that's for sure. Though he surely won't get the 3.75+ million some were reporting today, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he gets half of that. Also, no entry-level deal can be a 1 way pact, that's why it's called entry level. Without the bonus cushion next year, those bonuses will count against the upper limit. What's the difference? This year, the Habs could spend up to $59.4 million in salaries (cap hit - bonuses). Next year (assuming the same cap for this example), they can spend up to $59.4 million in cap hit (all bonuses included in that figure). Would you be kind enough to explain the maximum deal Emelin could notch ? I though it had to be 900$ + bonus... Is it right ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Would you be kind enough to explain the maximum deal Emelin could notch ? I though it had to be 900$ + bonus... Is it right ? As he was a 2004 draft pick, I don't have the exact numbers as the CBA started in 2005 (and I only have a copy of the current one). I think 2005 had the same numbers as 04 though which would mean a base salary of $850k as a max with his AHL salary coming in at $62,500. The bonuses is where it gets iffy as the old CBA allowed them a lot more than the current one does so I know the numbers I have are iffy. I think the $3.84 million which was reported on a Russian site is actually accurate, representing a 24% rollback of $4.75 million which I seem to remember was a rookie max years ago. Unfortunately, I don't have contract data going back that far I don't think so I can't confirm. So $850k and $3.84 M are as close to the magic numbers as I can give you. Edit: Upon further research, I'm seeing $984,200 as a 1st year salary for several picks from the 2004 draft. So perhaps that's the number, not $850k. That makes sense too as that also would be scaled back 24% (from $1.2 mil). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 As he was a 2004 draft pick, I don't have the exact numbers as the CBA started in 2005 (and I only have a copy of the current one). I think 2005 had the same numbers as 04 though which would mean a base salary of $850k as a max with his AHL salary coming in at $62,500. The bonuses is where it gets iffy as the old CBA allowed them a lot more than the current one does so I know the numbers I have are iffy. I think the $3.84 million which was reported on a Russian site is actually accurate, representing a 24% rollback of $4.75 million which I seem to remember was a rookie max years ago. Unfortunately, I don't have contract data going back that far I don't think so I can't confirm. So $850k and $3.84 M are as close to the magic numbers as I can give you. Edit: Upon further research, I'm seeing $984,200 as a 1st year salary for several picks from the 2004 draft. So perhaps that's the number, not $850k. That makes sense too as that also would be scaled back 24% (from $1.2 mil). But the 2,856 M$ in bonuses, should they be reached, would count against the cap I guess ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 But the 2,856 M$ in bonuses, should they be reached, would count against the cap I guess ? Yes. The kicker is this year though, they'll sit on the cap at the start of the year and not be added on afterwards. If he were to get the max deal (I'd be stunned and probably quite upset if he would), his starting cap hit would be $3.84M. So when you're trying to figure out how much the Habs have to spend this offseason, you'll have to take his (and anyone else with bonuses) full cap hit into effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Yes. The kicker is this year though, they'll sit on the cap at the start of the year and not be added on afterwards. If he were to get the max deal (I'd be stunned and probably quite upset if he would), his starting cap hit would be $3.84M. So when you're trying to figure out how much the Habs have to spend this offseason, you'll have to take his (and anyone else with bonuses) full cap hit into effect. Ok. Thanks Brian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 But, would that mean that his cap would decrease during the season as I don't see him being selected to the All-Stars Game (let alone being the MVP) ? Same for the 40 pts mark, who seems very high for a player like him and the top 2 in Blocked Shots category, pretty hard when you play on Gorges and Gill team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 But, would that mean that his cap would decrease during the season as I don't see him being selected to the All-Stars Game (let alone being the MVP) ? Same for the 40 pts mark, who seems very high for a player like him and the top 2 in Blocked Shots category, pretty hard when you play on Gorges and Gill team. Yep, the bonuses can go off once unattainable. However, of those you mentioned, only the ASG appointment would ever come off during a season. Anything that is number-based (points, PIMS, blocks, etc) other than GP stay on the cap all season as they're forever hypothetically attainable. A player could be 23 points shy of a bonus with 1 game to go but hey, it's still mathematically possible so it stays on the cap. The Habs can't really afford to go overboard on the bonuses here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Edmonton had Linesman, McSorley and Semenko. Later Tikkanen and Buekeboom. I think you have made my point. You haven't offered up any "finesse teams" because they don't exist. All teams need a blend of toughness and skill. Bbp has tried to qualify what he said, but has admitted as much. Staying out of penalty box is a no brainer. Some of us on this board, believe that the mix in Montreal should show more GRIT. I welcome a chance to have a look at Emelin and see what he brings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCPetit Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 For my part, I don't know if he is good, but if he is signed it gives us an excellent prospect going into training camp. With the addition of Diaz, the defense depth will be better than we thought entering the 2011-12 season. IMO, we just need to sign Gill, Gorges and Markov (or Wiz) and it will look good once again with Weber as a seventh defenseman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I think you have made my point. You haven't offered up any "finesse teams" because they don't exist. All teams need a blend of toughness and skill. Bbp has tried to qualify what he said, but has admitted as much. Staying out of penalty box is a no brainer. Some of us on this board, believe that the mix in Montreal should show more GRIT. I welcome a chance to have a look at Emelin and see what he brings. Detroit is a finesse team. But of course you're right, NO team wins with 100% finesse, and 1-2 mean mofos on the Habs would indisuptably help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saskhab Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Well, we still need to sign Alex. I'm still not ordering my #74 jersey just yet! Funny thing about his name: in French, apparently it would still be Emelin, so maybe he will skate around as Emelin for Montreal and not Yemelin (English translation of his Cryllic name). Yeah, Detroit has a lot of finesse, but Kirk Maltby always was a dirty SOB and Kronwall can hit to kill, and the team employs Todd Bertuzzi, a man who shouldn't be allowed to play in the NHL. Plus, Holmstrom is notorious for running goalies and taking late whacks after the whistle. And Abdelkader is not in the NHL for his skill... fact is, with how he played this year you wonder why he was in the NHL at all. It takes all kinds to make up a NHL team. Pittsburgh led the NHL in fights and employs Matt Cooke, yet the fans here complain about Boston and Philly being the dirtiest teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Well, we still need to sign Alex. I'm still not ordering my #74 jersey just yet! Funny thing about his name: in French, apparently it would still be Emelin, so maybe he will skate around as Emelin for Montreal and not Yemelin (English translation of his Cryllic name). Yeah, Detroit has a lot of finesse, but Kirk Maltby always was a dirty SOB and Kronwall can hit to kill, and the team employs Todd Bertuzzi, a man who shouldn't be allowed to play in the NHL. Plus, Holmstrom is notorious for running goalies and taking late whacks after the whistle. And Abdelkader is not in the NHL for his skill... fact is, with how he played this year you wonder why he was in the NHL at all. It takes all kinds to make up a NHL team. Pittsburgh led the NHL in fights and employs Matt Cooke, yet the fans here complain about Boston and Philly being the dirtiest teams. Yeah, I'm beginning to wonder whether we've been led up the garden path YET AGAIN regarding Mr. (Y)Emelin. Look: Boston deliberately ended the season of our best goal-scorer AND laid two deliberate attempts to injure upon our players in Games 6 and 7 of the first round. All three incidents came from different Bruins. That is a ridiculous ratio and a testament to their being a team of scumbags as opposed to one loony tunes nutter like Cooke. Philly has Richards, Pronger, and a couple of other notoriously dirty guttersnipes. So the rep of those two franchises is well-deserved. I don't think anyone is arguing that you need a mix of players to win. Still, it IS possible to characterize certain teams as fundamentally 'finesse' teams (Detroit, 1970s Habs). I've never heard of a team winning without any grit, although only the Broad Street Bullies seem to qualify as a team that won without any finesse element (and even they had Barber and Leach). If you ask me, two mean SOBs added to our regular roster would probably suffice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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