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The Case for Carrying 8 Defensemen


Trizzak

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I'm personally rather scared of Gill or Spacek in the top 4 for an extended period of time. Are either of them really minute munchers like Hamrlik was? And despite everyone seemingly having Gill slotted beside Subban or Gorges all year, I'd rather he be beside Yemelin on the 3rd pairing. If he helped Gorges and Subban improve, his next assignment should be Yemelin...

But that puts Spacek in the top 4, and I'm just not cool with that. He looks like the least fit player on the Habs, and veteran savvy only gets you so far when you can't keep up with the play...

But that puts Weber in the top 4, and being that he could only crack the lineup as a winger in the playoffs, can he really be trusted to make that kind of jump? I should point out I don't actually mind Spacek on the team with soft minutes, but if he's getting the soft minutes than someone else undeserving is getting the tough minutes, and that downright worries me.

And being that Hamrlik was in fact offered a contract by PG, I can certainly see another defenseman being added to replace one of Weber or Spacek.

Was Komisarek a top 4? He sure as hell looked like one when paired with Markov every night. Komisarek made a career of giving Markov harder minutes by cycling it into his corner and having him deal with pressure and transition. Gorges said as much last season when asked what it is like playing with Markov. He joked that he tosses it into his corner and he does the rest.

I know people believe that Wiz replaced Markov, but in reality it was a combo of Wiz/Hamrlik that patched the wound.

Place a competent defenseman beside Markov or Subban and they can handle the workload. Hamrlik is a LEGIT top 4 with any partner, unfortunately he is getting older and breaks down if placed under that workload now.

Would Hammer have been a better player to retain? Depends, do you value Gill's PK ability more than the possibility that Hammer has to play top 4 minutes. Do you value the player who will take the one year deal in contrast to the player who takes the 2 year deal.

This is not black and white. I don't know if it was the extra year, I don't know if they valued Gill's ability to mentor and PK ability. All I know is that there is a lot of complaining about the defensive depth based on assumptions of the skill level of players 99% of us have not seen play.

Emelin, Diaz and Weber offer three intriguing options. I will wait to see how they progress and if they are poor, I trust Gauthier to bridge the gap like a competent GM should.

The fact that the biggest complaint on this board seems to be how crappy and unreliable our 8th defenseman may be is a testament to how this team has improved.

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The fact that the biggest complaint on this board seems to be how crappy and unreliable our 8th defenseman may be is a testament to how this team has improved.

Is it that? Or is it that most of the forum believes that our top 6 D will get injured/die of old age and we will have to rely on our 8th D to carry the team?

I prefer your take on the situation, but I fear not everyone shares your viewpoint. sleep.gif

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Is it that? Or is it that most of the forum believes that our top 6 D will get injured/die of old age and we will have to rely on our 8th D to carry the team?

I prefer your take on the situation, but I fear not everyone shares your viewpoint. sleep.gif

I've got high hopes foe Subban, Emelin, weber and hoping Diaz can crack the lineup. I have little to no confidence in Spacek (hope PG is able to dump him to a cap team), and really don't want Gill to be any higher then a #5 dman.

My fear is that JM won't give Weber or emelin a real shot at moving up the depth shot. Had our D not been decimated by injuries, I doubt we would have seen Subban excel after Gorges and Spacek followed Markov on the DL.

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The fact that the biggest complaint on this board seems to be how crappy and unreliable our 8th defenseman may be is a testament to how this team has improved.

I am complaining how unreliable our #4 defenseman will be. There are many intriguing options down the depth chart, but none that I am comfortable with playing 20 minutes a night.

Markov

Subban

Gorges

-------

Gill

Yemelin

Spacek

Weber

Diaz

Nash

Denis

Mitera

The injury relief situation could be awful, but the current situation isn't really all that great. Yemelin could be that guy. Weber could be that guy. Gill could be that guy. But nobody currently is that guy. I'd rather replace a question mark with a guarantee, whether that be in the #4 or the #8 spot.

I'd also say Komisarek was much more capable in eating up minutes than Gill or Spacek currently is. You can put Spacek and Gill beside Markov if you want(ignoring the side-preferences obviously) but they will still get gassed.

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I am complaining how unreliable our #4 defenseman will be. There are many intriguing options down the depth chart, but none that I am comfortable with playing 20 minutes a night.

Markov

Subban

Gorges

-------

Gill

Yemelin

Spacek

Weber

Diaz

Nash

Denis

Mitera

The injury relief situation could be awful, but the current situation isn't really all that great. Yemelin could be that guy. Weber could be that guy. Gill could be that guy. But nobody currently is that guy. I'd rather replace a question mark with a guarantee, whether that be in the #4 or the #8 spot.

I'd also say Komisarek was much more capable in eating up minutes than Gill or Spacek currently is. You can put Spacek and Gill beside Markov if you want(ignoring the side-preferences obviously) but they will still get gassed.

Komisarek is a disaster in Toronto and he is in his PRIME now.

The point is almost to a man this board expected Subban to apprentice with easy minutes as the 6th defenseman last summer and now everybody has him penciled in as a perennial all-star. 80% of people thought Price would implode last season and the Canadiens were screwed without Halak. Two seasons ago coming off a 39 point year everybody had written of Plekanec as a 2nd line center at best and was the primary reason why the Habs acquired Gomez.

Everybody is a genius in hindsight. Gauthier has made some bold moves that the majority on this board would NOT have made because he is paid to anticipate the future not analyze what is in front of our face today, but to make decisions for what will be in our face tomorrow. So outside of those who thought Subban would be the number one defenseman come the playoffs and Carey Price would win 25 games more than the season before, raise your hand.

So I don't think it is rationale to complain about investing in young players when it has been so successful for this team over the last 2-3 seasons. This is not a Maple Leaf situation where everything needs to fall in place for a run at the playoffs. That was the 2002-2007 Habs. The Habs now have Cup winning veterans to help these young players ease into the NHL and provide a strong learning environment. Diaz and Emelin are sight unseen and Weber has barely played.

Many are choosing the "I haven't seen him, what if he sucks" mentality, I choose the "I haven't seen him, I trust Gauthier and Timmins and the system mentality".

There are failsafes should all of them falter (ie. Wiz, Mara somebody else). So why worry about it?

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Many are choosing the "I haven't seen him, what if he sucks" mentality, I choose the "I haven't seen him, I trust Gauthier and Timmins and the system mentality".

I am choosing the "He's never played the North American game" mentality. Yemelin, Diaz... How many foreign players step onto the ice in the NHL and immediately excel? It took Mark Streit a season to get it.

I trust Gauthier as well... and since he offered Hamrlik a contract, I trust Gauthier doesn't trust his current set of defensemen.

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But enough that he wasnt going to offer ol Hamrlik 2 years. Weber should be competant as 4th d-man(if Martin will play him on a cnsistant basis) and Gill averaged just under 20 minutes last year with no signs of age, but again he cant really slow down any can he.

Yemelin should get up to speed before christmas, as he is strictly a defensive d-man with lots of experiance, unlike Strait and Diaz is the true unknown, but if he like Weber that is fine with me.

I am choosing the "He's never played the North American game" mentality. Yemelin, Diaz... How many foreign players step onto the ice in the NHL and immediately excel? It took Mark Streit a season to get it.

I trust Gauthier as well... and since he offered Hamrlik a contract, I trust Gauthier doesn't trust his current set of defensemen.

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I am choosing the "He's never played the North American game" mentality. Yemelin, Diaz... How many foreign players step onto the ice in the NHL and immediately excel? It took Mark Streit a season to get it.

I trust Gauthier as well... and since he offered Hamrlik a contract, I trust Gauthier doesn't trust his current set of defensemen.

Interesting summer-doldrums debate.

At the end of the day I concur with Wamsley on this one, but I do agree with Trizzak to a certain extent - having Hamrlik on board cheap for one year would have provided shot-term depth and medium-term flexibility. But PG CHOSE to let him walk to leave room for Emelin or Weber to step up. And he felt the possibility was strong enough that one of them might do so this year that he was willing to let Hammer go rather than sign him to the very reasonable contract that Wash did. I will be surprised if PG adds a UFA D before the season starts, unless training camp/exhibition games change the outlook.

Also, I am not concerned about the prospect of Spac or Gill starting the season on the top 4 D. Spac in particular has proven he can eat those minutes, at least for a few months. And who knows, he may regain some offensive glitter if paired on the left side of Subban.

PG has been bold and risky. If Markov and Gorges return to form and Subban continues a pace, I won't be worried about who fills the number 4 spot. The Habs top 4 will be very solid indeed - it is hard to overestimate how rare the combined O and D prowess of Markov and Subban is, not to mention the physical aspect PK brings to the game and the elite level vision Markov brings. That combo will leave JM the latitude to test Emelin and Weber or to play it safe with the veterans. If injuries mount, PG has left cap space to wheel and deal.

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Interesting summer-doldrums debate.

At the end of the day I concur with Wamsley on this one, but I do agree with Trizzak to a certain extent - having Hamrlik on board cheap for one year would have provided shot-term depth and medium-term flexibility. But PG CHOSE to let him walk to leave room for Emelin or Weber to step up. And he felt the possibility was strong enough that one of them might do so this year that he was willing to let Hammer go rather than sign him to the very reasonable contract that Wash did. I will be surprised if PG adds a UFA D before the season starts, unless training camp/exhibition games change the outlook.

Also, I am not concerned about the prospect of Spac or Gill starting the season on the top 4 D. Spac in particular has proven he can eat those minutes, at least for a few months. And who knows, he may regain some offensive glitter if paired on the left side of Subban.

PG has been bold and risky. If Markov and Gorges return to form and Subban continues a pace, I won't be worried about who fills the number 4 spot. The Habs top 4 will be very solid indeed - it is hard to overestimate how rare the combined O and D prowess of Markov and Subban is, not to mention the physical aspect PK brings to the game and the elite level vision Markov brings. That combo will leave JM the latitude to test Emelin and Weber or to play it safe with the veterans. If injuries mount, PG has left cap space to wheel and deal.

I think he has taken calculated risks. Hammer would have been nice, but my guess is the second year was a no go.

For me, all the Habs need to do if Emelin, Weber AND Diaz all falter is piece together 35-40 games from Gill and 35-40 games from Spacek. They both can excel for short term stretches in the top 4. The whole thing blows up in their face if Markov/Subban get hurt, but that is always the risk of a physical game like hockey. I would love a Big 3, but probably not realistic anymore.

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If Markov has a long career, we may get to see that Big 3 for a season or three once Beaulieu comes of age, say 2013-14. He was the steal of the draft - good as a top-10 pick, IMHO.

That would be nice.

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The Red Wings had a D with Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Kronwall that was big 3 like... but Lidstrom was taking way less than market value as he was 35+ when this was formed.

Anaheim had Niedermeyer, Pronger and Beauchemin. Beauchemin is a big drop off from two All-Stars but more than competent on his own, and with the way they ran their D he often played more minutes than the other two guys.

Chicago had Keith, Seabrook, Campbell. Campbell is paid like a big 3 D though he's given soft assignments. Now they're hoping for Hjalmarsson or Leddy to take some of those minutes away from the big 2.

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I am complaining how unreliable our #4 defenseman will be. There are many intriguing options down the depth chart, but none that I am comfortable with playing 20 minutes a night.

Markov

Subban

Gorges

-------

Gill

Yemelin

Spacek

Weber

Diaz

Nash

Denis

Mitera

The injury relief situation could be awful, but the current situation isn't really all that great. Yemelin could be that guy. Weber could be that guy. Gill could be that guy. But nobody currently is that guy. I'd rather replace a question mark with a guarantee, whether that be in the #4 or the #8 spot.

Good post. :thumbs_up:

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http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2011/7/19/2284054/2010-11-season-advance-stat-recap-part-2-defensemen-at-even-strength

I know not everybody buys into the "advanced stats" but this is a strong statement for the defense that Gauthier brought back.

Gill-Subban looks to be a quality 2nd pairing next year, either as a shut-down unit against the toughs to free Markov for a more offensive role or as a second matchup pairing to share the defensive responsibilities. They would make for an excellent defensive zone start pairing to give the rest of the defense an easier time.
The third rock for the defense after Hamrlik and Gill was Spacek with lesser minutes but still against strong opponents. Montreal player very low-event hockey with him on the ice but came out ahead both on possession and goals, with a low shooting% cancelling out a high save percentage. He is slated for the third pairing next season, he should be able to anchor that unit and play spot duty in the top-4 without much difficulty unless he falls off a cliff in ability.

Just another reason why I am not worried about the D.

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Tinordi may be right there as well, when Beaulieu cracks the squad and who knows how much Nash, Ellis, Bennett, Diaz, Weber, Pateryn, Dietz and Nygren will improve over next 2 or 3 years? a couple should work out, couple will tank and couple will be traded no doubt, but Price should have a good core in front of him for next few years.

snapback.pngpatience is a virtue, on 19 July 2011 - 05:52 AM, said:

If Markov has a long career, we may get to see that Big 3 for a season or three once Beaulieu comes of age, say 2013-14. He was the steal of the draft - good as a top-10 pick, IMHO.

quote name='Wamsley01' timestamp='1311087340' post='421129']

That would be nice.

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