dlbalr Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 I share the worries about Parros and am a bit surprised about the cavalier attitude toward concussions some posters seem to be expressing in this thread. Guys like Chris Pronger, Keith Primeau and Gino Odjick have lost years out of their lives, reduced to shadows of themselves - not in terms of hockey, but simply as men, their quality of life seriously compromised - due to concussions. My understanding of the medical facts is limited, but I gather that the implications for Parros's long-term well-being (including whether he can play again) hinge on the severity of this particular concussion and how many previous concussions he's had. I don't know the answer to either question. But I for one am uneasy with the whole scenario of a guy suffering a massive concussion and then coming back for the expressed purpose of receiving further blows to the head. I just quickly went through his injury history (TSN player page), there's no mention of any prior concussion history which is good news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMAC Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I just quickly went through his injury history (TSN player page), there's no mention of any prior concussion history which is good news. Regretablly, though, that doesn't mean he hasn't had concussions in the past. Concussion injuries are so unpredictable that he could be fine in a few weeks with no lasting ill effects or it could take months or his career could be over. For George's sake I hope he is ok and for the team's sake, I hope he is able to come back soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Eric Duhatchek, in today's Globe, mentions that Parros has "a concussion history." He didn't elaborate, but he seems a fairly plugged-in guy. Count me among those who would not be surprised if Parros never returns, or if he does return only to get another concussion in fairly short order. Older guy, repeated blows to the head, concussion history, receiving a devastatingly severe concussion in a freak incident - none of this inspires confidence that he can come back and be the splendid enforcer he was showing himself to be for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyhasbeen Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 He will be back. That isn't how he will end his career. Nor would you. Now if he had been knocked out in the fight, then landed on his head.... Who wants to end their career tripping and falling on your face and being carried off? He is 2 and 0 this year both against his nemesis Orr. 20 years ago he would be dressed vs Philly. He isn't a dandy boy. He is a tough mother and will be back sooner than you think. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 He will be back. That isn't how he will end his career. Nor would you. Now if he had been knocked out in the fight, then landed on his head.... Who wants to end their career tripping and falling on your face and being carried off? He is 2 and 0 this year both against his nemesis Orr. 20 years ago he would be dressed vs Philly. He isn't a dandy boy. He is a tough mother and will be back sooner than you think. IMO. Right...his brain is so tough. Look, the proposition that he might never come back assumes that concussions are a serious matter. It's clear from these discussions that a lot of people still subscribe to the "oh he just got his bell rung" school of brain injuries, despite seeing guys like Marc Savard, Pronger and Primeau lose their careers due to them, and guys like Boogard and Probert have demonstrable brain pathologies as a result of repeated blows to the head. If Parros makes a full recovery and gets medical clearance, then sure, he should come back. If he doesn't make a full recovery but comes back nevertheless just because "he is a tough mother" then it's just a matter of time before the lights go out again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Savard never fought. His career was ended by bodychecks. I guess by your safety first logic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 He will be back. That isn't how he will end his career. Nor would you. Now if he had been knocked out in the fight, then landed on his head.... Who wants to end their career tripping and falling on your face and being carried off? He is 2 and 0 this year both against his nemesis Orr. 20 years ago he would be dressed vs Philly. He isn't a dandy boy. He is a tough mother and will be back sooner than you think. IMO. Couldn't agree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Savard never fought. His career was ended by bodychecks. I guess by your safety first logic... Savard's career was ended by post-concussion syndrome. I was using him as an example of the seriousness of concussions, which several people around here seem to think of as a sissy concern. As for bodychecking, how many times to I have to say that we should be trying to strike a balance between necessary and unnecessary risk? Bodychecking is integral to the game; fighting is a sideshow only defensible if it can be shown to deter stickwork, which in turn needs to be shown to be more dangerous than fighting. Therefore the latter is much more vulnerable to the argument that it should be eliminated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmethead Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 He's Greek. Of course he'll be back. We're as hard-headed as they get. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyhasbeen Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Right...his brain is so tough. Look, the proposition that he might never come back assumes that concussions are a serious matter. It's clear from these discussions that a lot of people still subscribe to the "oh he just got his bell rung" school of brain injuries, despite seeing guys like Marc Savard, Pronger and Primeau lose their careers due to them, and guys like Boogard and Probert have demonstrable brain pathologies as a result of repeated blows to the head. If Parros makes a full recovery and gets medical clearance, then sure, he should come back. If he doesn't make a full recovery but comes back nevertheless just because "he is a tough mother" then it's just a matter of time before the lights go out again. He is a fighter, that is his role. Do you actually think guys fight without knowing they are going to get hit in the head? There are far fewer head injuries caused by fights than you would think. When the body sees a blow coming it has mechanisms that help prevent injury. Being blind sided is what causes major injuries. You don't hear about boxers or MMA fighters suffering concussions very often. Why? They don't get blindsided. I am not saying you can't get a concussion this way, but it is much easier to get when from hitting your head on the ice than being punched in the skull. The skull is much stronger than a fist. The ice is much harder.. BGL, Nilan, Schulz, and tons more are not showing the symptoms Probert is showing. It is a possibility, not a probability. Crosby doesn't fight nor did the younger or the Lindros brothers. They had tons of concussions. Most hockey injuries and the vast majority of major injuries are not caused by fights. YES, you are right, people get hurt fighting. They also get hurt tons of other ways playing hockey. It is a risk they take willingly when they step on the ice. The players choice, not the fans. If you don't want to watch a violent sport tune into tennis. Hockey is violent. Deal with it and love it for what it is. Two guys drop the gloves and fight, they know they are getting hit in the head. They make that choice knowing they will be hit. Much better for you than being hit into the boards without seeing it coming. Here is an example for you. I am coaching Atom kids this year. I go out there and skate with them even though I have been told not to by 3 different doctors because I tore the crap out of my knee 10 years ago and still have not had surgery to reattach my ACL and MCL. I have no sideways strength in the right knee and it could give out on me easily and leave me off work for awhile. Sorry doc, I love the game and will be on the ice. I know the risk I am taking and am willing to risk it. My choice, not the doctors and surely not yours. I willingly risk personal injury out of the love of the game. Stupid? Maybe but try and keep me off the ice. I dare you. I injured my knee playing goal, not in a fight. It ended my playing days and has had an affect on my daily life. Do I ever wish I had not played? NO! When I have to stop half way up a flight of stairs because of me knee do I think "I never should have played"? NO. Ask Pronger if he regrets his NHL career. See what he has to say. This is not a choice for fans to make. The fans can choose to watch a more civil sport. Also the only time I had a serious concussion was when I had a bike accident as a kid, so please don't let your kids ride bikes! Way too dangerous!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I never said we should ban fighting. What I've said is: IF fighting produces lots of serious brain injuries, and IF these injuries are more serious and numerous than those caused by the stickwork that is likely to follow the abolition of fighting, then we should ban it. These are empirical questions, and we could generate good data on them if we wanted to. Johnnyhasbeen, all you've given us is a bunch of anecdotal evidence about how getting smashed on the head doesn't cause concussions - totally worthless to anyone looking for a serious understanding of this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I haven't heard anything on Pacioretty, is it just a minor injury? He looked so good in pre-season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I haven't heard anything on Pacioretty, is it just a minor injury? He looked so good in pre-season On the other hand, Eller looked like crap in pre-season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I haven't heard anything on Pacioretty, is it just a minor injury? He looked so good in pre-season Yep, just a day-to-day thing. He was close to playing last night so I imagine he'll be ready for the road trip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 6, 2013 Author Share Posted October 6, 2013 Yeah, he knows the risks.... but sometimes we take steps to prevent people from themselves. People who want to do drugs know the risks, but we still make them illegal. People who drive know the risks of not wearing a seat belt, but they are still mandated. As for Boxers they get a ton of concussions... why do you think they end up punch drunk later in life. MMA guys get less concussions because there is so much more grappling involved. As for your "body gets ready and fighters don't get concussions because of it theory...." tell it to a doctor that your body adjusts and you get less concussions from punches to head and he'll laugh at you. Its something that is not confirmed by any medical or scientific evidence whatsoever. As for old fighters.... the tests on CTE are pretty conclusive for guys who have died like Probert. Its real and it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Maybe but try and keep me off the ice. I dare you. Sounds pretty easy to do, I'll two hand you on your knee then juke to the left as you try to grab me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Right...his brain is so tough. Look, the proposition that he might never come back assumes that concussions are a serious matter. It's clear from these discussions that a lot of people still subscribe to the "oh he just got his bell rung" school of brain injuries, despite seeing guys like Marc Savard, Pronger and Primeau lose their careers due to them, and guys like Boogard and Probert have demonstrable brain pathologies as a result of repeated blows to the head. If Parros makes a full recovery and gets medical clearance, then sure, he should come back. If he doesn't make a full recovery but comes back nevertheless just because "he is a tough mother" then it's just a matter of time before the lights go out again. Concussions are no joke, but there's no evidence that the issues of Boogaard and Probert weren't compounded by heavy drug use. They were both junkies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovett's Magnatones Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Yeah, he knows the risks.... but sometimes we take steps to prevent people from themselves. People who want to do drugs know the risks, but we still make them illegal. People who drive know the risks of not wearing a seat belt, but they are still mandated. As for Boxers they get a ton of concussions... why do you think they end up punch drunk later in life. MMA guys get less concussions because there is so much more grappling involved. As for your "body gets ready and fighters don't get concussions because of it theory...." tell it to a doctor that your body adjusts and you get less concussions from punches to head and he'll laugh at you. Its something that is not confirmed by any medical or scientific evidence whatsoever. As for old fighters.... the tests on CTE are pretty conclusive for guys who have died like Probert. Its real and it happens. Boxers get punch drunk (like Ali) because in some cases they fight well past their sell by date. (See: Holmes/Ali) Overall, getting hit in the head is the cause of being punch drunk, but there are always other factors in play. I still maintain that getting knocked out is due to getting hit on the chin (naturally makes the knees buckle) and the concussion is the secondary effect, not the primary. I still think we see Parros on the ice before the Senators game. The reason a lot of fighters, in boxing and hockey, end up with CTE and other complications, is that they all prefer to go out on their shield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Yeah, he knows the risks.... but sometimes we take steps to prevent people from themselves. People who want to do drugs know the risks, but we still make them illegal. People who drive know the risks of not wearing a seat belt, but they are still mandated. As for Boxers they get a ton of concussions... why do you think they end up punch drunk later in life. MMA guys get less concussions because there is so much more grappling involved. As for your "body gets ready and fighters don't get concussions because of it theory...." tell it to a doctor that your body adjusts and you get less concussions from punches to head and he'll laugh at you. Its something that is not confirmed by any medical or scientific evidence whatsoever. As for old fighters.... the tests on CTE are pretty conclusive for guys who have died like Probert. Its real and it happens. I've played devil's advocate about the recent fighting hoopla. You know better than anyone here about how much I've studied concussions and their severity. I still feel effects from my concussion. There's a reason I keep mentioning the rule about full cage helmets in the league. Until the NHL allows a player to properly protect himself they are never going to ban fighting. There's rules in the NHL that prevent it from happening. Remember when Chara bullied Emelin into a fight due to a hit? And we flipped out because Emelin has the restructured jaw? Emelin used to wear a cage for it and because a doctor said he didn't have to anymore, he had to switch to a visor. That's messed up. A full cage or face shield would have protected Crosby from getting a puck to the face (Or Koivu a stick to the eye). Companies like Bauer could be putting R&D into faceshields that don't fog up similar to visors. Players wouldn't lose any vision and it would be up to their choice. Right now, they cannot protect themselves like a goalie unless they have a temporary doctor's note. If that doesn't get changed, how can you tackle fighting? I think most agree that fights are not penalized enough. But then again, that's again the root of a bigger issue that has been mentioned. Referees have bizarre expectations to "put the whistles away" in the playoffs and, what I've speculated for years now, they get the whistles out in the last five minutes and call anything suspect to keep a game close. I'll wear the tinfoil hat with pride on that one. Seems to be 40 games a year I see where a light hook was called when a team is down 4-2 giving the losing team a chance to score on the PP and pull the goalie to get the game close. The over the glass rule is still the dumbest rule in the game. There's a reason I prod Cucumber and others when they mention an injured player that wasn't due to fighting. It's because you need to make your arguments better. Marc Savard is not an argument to ban fighting. Mentioning him burns your entire argument. You know who is an argument to ban fighting? PJ Stock. It's incredibly bad PR for the league when a television personality is a former hockey player and he was terrible. People see guys like Ward, Stock, Ray, Domi, Kypreos and several other former players who were pugilists getting jobs in the media and giving hockey opinions when anyone looks at their career, folks can see they were terrible hockey players. Terrible hockey players that should have never made the NHL. They wouldn't have jobs in the media if it wasn't for fighting, and their voices poison the image of the league. You know who is one of the most popular former players in sports media? Charles Barkley. Barkley was a tough SOB in basketball but he was also one of the best. Having him or Shaq be voices in the NBA (and be entertaining to boot) at least gives you a perspective of the superstar. What do we have in the NHL? If you're not a goalie in the media, you're probably a six minute former goon. That all said, the NHL is trying to ruin the popularity of fighting. They are doing it purposely. The helmet rule? It's supposed to make you say, "Oh god that's so dumb, why even fight?" They are trying to make it look like a circus show. The rule isn't for safety of the players. Real safety, like I mentioned, would be allowing players to wear cages. In another way, the league treats players like cattle and are waiting for the smoking gun. They know they will never get support to go zero tolerance on fighting until a player either dies or is badly injured in a fight *immediately*. The league can wash their hands of Probert. He was a drug addict (with a scrambled brain and a life of pain, it's a common road) and a great way to absolve his death. The NHL will wait for something similar to Parros, but not self inflicted. They will wait for a guy getting punched into a coma before doing something. Don't believe me? In 1933, Ace Bailey suffered a near fatal head injury. The NHL refused to make helmets mandatory. In 1968, Bill Masterton died after being hit by two players at the same time. Even then, it wasn't until 1979 when it became mandated. Things would happen faster today, but that's what it's going to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neech Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 There really is no reason for players not to wear the full face shield, except the worn out arguments from tradition and some inconsistent code of honour. The penguins have $100 million invested in Crosby and his career could have been ended by that errant puck. I guess stars would be slightly harder to market with their faces partially covered, but the NFL manages to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 There really is no reason for players not to wear the full face shield, except the worn out arguments from tradition and some inconsistent code of honour. The penguins have $100 million invested in Crosby and his career could have been ended by that errant puck. I guess stars would be slightly harder to market with their faces partially covered, but the NFL manages to do it. Yes, but full or 3/4 visor makes too much sense, so that idea would go over like lead balloon and the Don Cherry fan club would be up in arms, as it would almost eliminate ability to punch someone in the face...... just to relieve frustration of course. Football helmets have slowly evolved to incorporate more and more face/eye protection and I don't recall any complaints from traditionalists. Head protection is also taken a bit more serious in Lacrosse isn't it, don't they have full cage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Yes, but full or 3/4 visor makes too much sense, so that idea would go over like lead balloon and the Don Cherry fan club would be up in arms, as it would almost eliminate ability to punch someone in the face...... just to relieve frustration of course. Football helmets have slowly evolved to incorporate more and more face/eye protection and I don't recall any complaints from traditionalists. Head protection is also taken a bit more serious in Lacrosse isn't it, don't they have full cage? I agree that the best way to eliminate fighting injuries and a lot of other injuries is to mandate full cage helmets. Parros would have been ok with a full cage. Lot less concussions and virtually no eye injuries. Pronger would still be playing, instead of staying home. But while the NHL might go for it if they got enough bad press, the players union will never agree to it. The players union, you know the guys who are supposed to protect the players, have always been on the wrong side of safety issues. The reason it took so long to get helmets was the players did not want them, visors same thing. If the players won't protect themselves, what do you want the owners to do? They have to abide by the CBA. Full face shields that do not fog up would be the cat's meow. I think that the level of hockey would increase as the goons were eliminated and replaced by actual hockey players. Size would still be a big advantage but a smaller skilled player ( Gallagher) would have a better chance to show his skill if the goonery were gone. Just my opinion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeLassister Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Pronger's been voted the dirtiest player of the league for over a decade by his pairs. Can we stop crying about him ? I mean, it's sad that he had to retire that early and that he still struggles with post-concussion symptoms, but talking about a guy who kinda deserved it here. The number of games he missed because of suspensions related to cheap shots is just amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 It isn't an injury but Brian Gionta is not flying with the team. Will meet them in Calgary. Family related with his children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Is one of his kids in poor health? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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