Habsfan Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Do we know who is the favourite to be the 1st overall pick next summer? If he's big and talented, I think we should tank this season. We should do what the Flyers did a couple of years ago. As long as JM is our coach and as long as 4 of our top 6 forwards are under 5'10" tall, we will struggle and injuries will continue to bother us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Yes, because the injuries that are all to guys over 6'0 are because of size. (Patches, Markov, Spacek, Campoli, are all over 6'0). Oh wait, Cammy had an injury too... but his was not exactly caused by his size... it was a fluke leg cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I am not convinced injuries are our only issue (we played like crap in the few games before the injuries piled up), but they will probably buy JM time. Looking at it from the management perspective, JM has been relatively successful in Montreal. We don't like all his decisions (we never do with any coach), but overall he has been our best coach in some time from a results perspective. With the injuries, its pretty hard to judge how much of this is coaching. Last year, St. Louis was off to a hot start, then they started dropping like flies. They never recovered. We probably won't either if Pacs is also out for an extended period of time. The reality is this is a pretty average team, even without injuries. We are not a tough team (I will avoid using 'big'), nor are we blessed with a couple of top ten talents (outside of Price). If the season is lost (and depending on injuries and the next 5 games or so, it might be), then I think they need to write it off and start addressing some of our longer term issues. Make some key trades to dump who doesn't fit in the long term picture and try to get some pieces that will pay off next year, even if those trades make us worse this year. There is no point trading assets for short term help and hanging on to players we can trade to fight our way up to tenth place. Please note I don't think they can make this decision yet, but they are only a week or two away from being able to make it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I agree things need to turn around soon, or else we should look at trading ufas and stockpiling prospects and picks. Gill, gorges, akost, spacek, moen, campoli, are all ufas at the end of the year and we could end up with quite the stash of picks in what looks like a fantastic draft.</p> I don't think its the time to sell yet, but its getting closer. However we all know that prices go up closer to the deadline, so there is little point totrading now. Give the team time to see if a turnaround is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I believe that the season is probably going to be lost if Patches is out for an extended period. He was the only guy on the team playing with confidence. Without him, there's every reason to think the losing streak will continue until whenever Markov/Campoli come back and the veterans find their games. This being said, at that point we will be a good team; it's just likely to be too little, too late. I don't really subscribe to the 'blow it up' model. When Gainey reconstructed the team in 2009, I suggested this edition was a rebuild in disguise: a collection of signings who would allow us to be competitive while the next generation of young players were brought along. The team performed well enough that I came to think we could contend with this core. (I still think that in principle, but damn, it ain't happening so far). Nevertheless, if you look at what's going on with this team, we see a TON of young players emerging from within this framework: -Subban (projects to be an elite, #1 defenceman); -Price (projects to be a top-5 NHL goalie); -Pacioretty (projects to be a top-line power forward); -Eller (#1A centreman); -White (solid third-liner); -Desharnais (likely a marginal player, but some potential as secondary playmaker); -Weber (#4-5 defenceman, secondary PP quarterback); -Diaz (hard to say...potential top-4 I'd speculate; see Weber above); -Emelin (potential primary or secondary shutdown defenceman). There are also a number of players whose primes can be expected to last for another 3-5 years, such as Plekanec (#1A centreman), Cammalleri (top-3 scoring winger), Gorges (#5 defenceman) and (if he stays) Kostitsyn (prototypical second-line winger). The absence of Ryan McDonagh from this list is agonizingly painful, I'll admit. Nevertheless, there is a pretty decent emerging core here. If you can get Gomer Pyle off the books, we'll be in a position to supplement this core with an elite player, or with two 'quite good' NHLers. So contrary to the 'tankers' and those who say the fundamentals of this organization are rotten, I think the fundamentals are actually pretty good. Gauthier made the fatal mistake this season of not re-signing Hammer, but other than that his decisions have been mostly solid and good young talent is there. The key will be to add to the emerging nucleus rather than subtract from it, in response to this short-term crisis. What we do over the next few weeks could have ramifications for the future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I believe that the season is probably going to be lost if Patches is out for an extended period. He was the only guy on the team playing with confidence. Without him, there's every reason to think the losing streak will continue until whenever Markov/Campoli come back and the veterans find their games. This being said, at that point we will be a good team; it's just likely to be too little, too late. I don't really subscribe to the 'blow it up' model. When Gainey reconstructed the team in 2009, I suggested this edition was a rebuild in disguise: a collection of signings who would allow us to be competitive while the next generation of young players were brought along. The team performed well enough that I came to think we could contend with this core. (I still think that in principle, but damn, it ain't happening so far). Nevertheless, if you look at what's going on with this team, we see a TON of young players emerging from within this framework: -Subban (projects to be an elite, #1 defenceman); -Price (projects to be a top-5 NHL goalie); -Pacioretty (projects to be a top-line power forward); -Eller (#1A centreman); -White (solid third-liner); -Desharnais (likely a marginal player, but some potential as secondary playmaker); -Weber (#4-5 defenceman, secondary PP quarterback); -Diaz (hard to say...potential top-4 I'd speculate; see Weber above); -Emelin (potential primary or secondary shutdown defenceman). There are also a number of players whose primes can be expected to last for another 3-5 years, such as Plekanec (#1A centreman), Cammalleri (top-3 scoring winger), Gorges (#5 defenceman) and (if he stays) Kostitsyn (prototypical second-line winger). The absence of Ryan McDonagh from this list is agonizingly painful, I'll admit. Nevertheless, there is a pretty decent emerging core here. If you can get Gomer Pyle off the books, we'll be in a position to supplement this core with an elite player, or with two 'quite good' NHLers. So contrary to the 'tankers' and those who say the fundamentals of this organization are rotten, I think the fundamentals are actually pretty good. Gauthier made the fatal mistake this season of not re-signing Hammer, but other than that his decisions have been mostly solid and good young talent is there. The key will be to add to the emerging nucleus rather than subtract from it, in response to this short-term crisis. What we do over the next few weeks could have ramifications for the future. I concur, but signing Hamrlik to a 2 year deal was a non-starter and the whole McDonaugh/Gomer trade will go down with one of worst of Gainey's moves, but you know what hindsight is. Team is playing OK and some good signs of potential, but just coming up a bit short. Sky aint falling quite yet and i am still optomistic about this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I don't think you blow it up either, but I think that if the team isnt looking better soon, and you aren't gonna make the playoffs, that you deal ufas. If gorges isn't signed by the deadline, deal him, same with akost. Gill moen spacek campoli can all go. I wouldn't touch price, eller, patches, subban, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brobin Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Blowing it up is nuts.. there is something here, but recognizing that this isn't the year and making a couple of key moves for the future is probably warranted at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trizzak Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Blowing it up is nuts.. there is something here, but recognizing that this isn't the year and making a couple of key moves for the future is probably warranted at some point. Indeed. Is Gill or Spacek part of the team next season? If not, trade them. If the hole they've dug is too great to get out of, then don't sit on deal-able assets that won't help you in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Its not just gill and spacek its all the ufas. For gorges and akost, You do what ottawa did with phillips last year, and what toronto did with antropov before that. Sure they might be part of the future, but they are still ufa in july. Either re-sign before the deadline (phillips) or be traded on deadline day (antropov). We'll search for ufa replacements if we have to. But if we're out of the hunt I don't want to lose them for nothing when both could fetch a good return and this draft is deep. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Its not just gill and spacek its all the ufas. For gorges and akost, You do what ottawa did with phillips last year, and what toronto did with antropov before that. Sure they might be part of the future, but they are still ufa in july. Either re-sign before the deadline (phillips) or be traded on deadline day (antropov). We'll search for ufa replacements if we have to. But if we're out of the hunt I don't want to lose them for nothing when both could fetch a good return and this draft is deep. I agree with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toronthab Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I believe that the season is probably going to be lost if Patches is out for an extended period. He was the only guy on the team playing with confidence. Without him, there's every reason to think the losing streak will continue until whenever Markov/Campoli come back and the veterans find their games. This being said, at that point we will be a good team; it's just likely to be too little, too late. I don't really subscribe to the 'blow it up' model. When Gainey reconstructed the team in 2009, I suggested this edition was a rebuild in disguise: a collection of signings who would allow us to be competitive while the next generation of young players were brought along. The team performed well enough that I came to think we could contend with this core. (I still think that in principle, but damn, it ain't happening so far). Nevertheless, if you look at what's going on with this team, we see a TON of young players emerging from within this framework: -Subban (projects to be an elite, #1 defenceman); -Price (projects to be a top-5 NHL goalie); -Pacioretty (projects to be a top-line power forward); -Eller (#1A centreman); -White (solid third-liner); -Desharnais (likely a marginal player, but some potential as secondary playmaker); -Weber (#4-5 defenceman, secondary PP quarterback); -Diaz (hard to say...potential top-4 I'd speculate; see Weber above); -Emelin (potential primary or secondary shutdown defenceman). There are also a number of players whose primes can be expected to last for another 3-5 years, such as Plekanec (#1A centreman), Cammalleri (top-3 scoring winger), Gorges (#5 defenceman) and (if he stays) Kostitsyn (prototypical second-line winger). The absence of Ryan McDonagh from this list is agonizingly painful, I'll admit. Nevertheless, there is a pretty decent emerging core here. If you can get Gomer Pyle off the books, we'll be in a position to supplement this core with an elite player, or with two 'quite good' NHLers. So contrary to the 'tankers' and those who say the fundamentals of this organization are rotten, I think the fundamentals are actually pretty good. Gauthier made the fatal mistake this season of not re-signing Hammer, but other than that his decisions have been mostly solid and good young talent is there. The key will be to add to the emerging nucleus rather than subtract from it, in response to this short-term crisis. What we do over the next few weeks could have ramifications for the future. Nice evaluation and summary CC. I hope we can get some of our heros back soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toronthab Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Okay, enough from people saying Markov over Wiz. Markov hasn't even played yet for us to judge that. Let him play before we trash the signing, Wiz has had more knee injuries then Markov and hasn't shown that he can be a top Defensive force. Markov is by far the better player who could get way more money had he been healthy, it could turn into a huge steal for us. Let him play before we bash him. Cole fit a EXACT need everyone has been complaining about for YEARS. He is a big power forward. Yes he played bad in Edmonton... we must also remember that they were a terrible team. We needed to offer any fa that kind of money and those terms. It isn't even that bad! One year where he will be an over paid player? He hasn't had a great start, but the whole team hasn't played well so we cannot say it is a bust signing, let the team sort something out before we say he is going to be the highest paid 3rd liner and be another Gomez. When the team is playing terribly how can you expect one guy to be good? The whole entire team (except max) has played with no heart. I like that we actually went for someone during fa instead of just sitting around. It shows the right mentality. When it comes to veteran d. Markov has more experience then Wiz and Gill has played over 1000 games now. Spacek is a veteran and Campoli and Georges have been around long enough to not be youngins. Injuries to half our d-line is not something any gm can reasonably plan for. None of those points hold any validity. On the coach. Okay. I am tired of him. He is making a lot of mistakes from what I can see and even if not, I would like to see a more exciting game of hockey... but as has been pointed out... there are not many coaches available who fit Montreal's requirements. Should these requirements be changed... I say yes, but that is another issue. Gauthier has made some really smart moves, Campoli signing was great, the attempt for Betts was great, I agree with the Phoenix trade and I like the Cole signing and Markov signing, I have nothing bad to say about him. He is stuck at the moment because of injuries and flukes that make his moves look pointless, but I really like what he has done. No hate should be thrown at Gauthier. It does not make sense. The hate towards JM is a little more rational, mainly because a lot of people complain about him when we are winning anyways. Agree. I don't like the dump JM movement. I don't know whether he's part of the problem or not. I understand that jettisoning coaches is a standard manouvre but I don't like it in principle. As to the type of game we play... what other type of game CAN we play. We can score, but we are not an all offence, all the time kind of team. Our best player is possibly our goalie, and Martin's strategy reflects that. I have much more fun watching pond hockey myself, but good hockey , they tell me , is a lot more disciplined. Can we skate up Lafleur? Injuries are devastating our team early. The cohesion isn't there because of this. And the pressure as it grows makes hands turn to stone. Go Habs Go,,, and God help'em overcome the challenges! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Agree. I don't like the dump JM movement. I don't know whether he's part of the problem or not. I understand that jettisoning coaches is a standard manouvre but I don't like it in principle. As to the type of game we play... what other type of game CAN we play. We can score, but we are not an all offence, all the time kind of team. Our best player is possibly our goalie, and Martin's strategy reflects that. I have much more fun watching pond hockey myself, but good hockey , they tell me , is a lot more disciplined. Can we skate up Lafleur? Injuries are devastating our team early. The cohesion isn't there because of this. And the pressure as it grows makes hands turn to stone. Go Habs Go,,, and God help'em overcome the challenges! I actually think this is the right system for the team to play. While a full season of Max, and the signing of cole changes things, we are still a team where 5 of our top 9 forwards are small. As such playing a cycle game is a non-starter, we just don't have enough forwards who are strong on the puck to consistently win board battles and play the cycle game. We also aren't really set up for an aggresive forecheck. What we do have is an abundance of speed and skill. The best way to take advantage of that offensively is to play a game that generates odd man rushes. If you think of our big goals over the last couple years, they are mostly either PP or if at even strength scored off the rush. How do you generate odd man rushes? You need to play good defense... create turnovers, intercept passes, block shots, and win races to loose pucks. Then you get your transition started and its off to the races.... With Subban, Diaz, Weber at the back end and Campoli and Markov on the shelf, we should be able to make a strong first pass and get the transition going. What is lacking right now, and has lacked all season is forward support in the defensive zone. The forwards are not helping the D. If the forwards backchecked a little better, we'd get even more odd man rushes and the type of scoring chances that this team typically finishes. That and I still think this team just needs one win to pull out of this slump. Some confidence would go a long way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I agree with CC to a large extent. We have pieces here, we need to keep. I do think we are going to be in selling position and if that is the case with a little forsight we could strengthen our prospect position for years to come. The direction we are heading, and I believe we are 30th in a 30 team league, might uncomplicate the faint hope clause making assets available to move. Generally young guys stay, old guys go. Psst - that includes the SMURFS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I agree with CC to a large extent. We have pieces here, we need to keep. I do think we are going to be in selling position and if that is the case with a little forsight we could strengthen our prospect position for years to come. The direction we are heading, and I believe we are 30th in a 30 team league, might uncomplicate the faint hope clause making assets available to move. Generally young guys stay, old guys go. Psst - that includes the SMURFS Well, the only 'old' Smurfs are Gionta and Gomez (although why a 200-lb 5'11 guy is listed as a 'smurf' is beyond me). Cammalleri has been the league-leading playoff scorer two years running and still has many productive years ahead, so the advantage of moving him is not clear. Basically, then, a firesale would mean Gill, Gio, Gomez, Spacek, maybe Moen. You might prefer to sign AK and Gorges rather than deal them to be UFAs. Personally, I expect Kosty to be dealt and Gorges retained. That's about it. (I assume that the 32-year-old Markov is not to be included). The trouble with this model is that if you replace all these guys with young assets, you can kiss contending goodbye for a significant stretch of time. Yet if you replace some of the departing vets with new UFA signings, then it begs the question of why you let the old vets go in the first place. (Also, will UFAs come to a Habs team that has just missed the playoffs?) If worse comes to worst, I don't go the wholesale fire-sale route. Maybe Kosty, certainly Spacek and Gill. Gomez is a no-brainer to unload at the first oppprtunity. That's all I myself can really see. Are these guys going to get you elite prospects back? In any case, those who, like me, think this is basically a pretty good team, will hope that it doesn't come to this. THE best move we could conceivably make would be to move Gomer Pyle and redirect that money to an elite player or two solid upgrades. That'd certainly be enough for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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