GDT Sabres vs Habs, Nov. 14, 7 PM EST

[dlbalr]

What they should be working on is in practice is commiting with two dman while Markov is out and work with Subban on shortening his wind-up and using that wrister he has. It is a coaching issue when the PP isn't clicking because the players appear to have little to no chemistry. What the friggin hell was Darche on the PP for????

Subban isn't being used when he SHOULD be used. We need him on the PP. He is our most creative player - use him at that time and take away some of his 5 on 5 time.

Darche's take away ended up being a waste away.

I agree that they need to go to 2 D at least on the top unit, I don't mind an extra forward on the second unit as PP point options from the D are limited right now.

As for Subban not being used enough on the PP, he leads all Montreal defencemen in that stat...and tonight doubled his PP point production (from 1 to 2). He's a one trick pony out there, long wind up, miss the net, long wind up, miss the net. If he was the Subban of last year, absolutely get him out there but until he stops being so predictable, it's not worth screwing up the 5-on-5 time to play him on the PP more in my opinion.

[Habsfan]

Since we're playing 'point, counterpoint' (always makes for interesting discussion), let me counter:

- Myers has been terrible this year and was a healthy scratch, not injured.

- Enroth actually has outplayed Miller, to the point where he was starting to play more anyway.

You're right about Myers, however it doesn't change the fact that he's still a very useful d-man. As far as Enroth vs. Miller is concerned, Miller still remains the best in the NHL(even though he is in a slump).

The point is that the Sabres were a no-show for 40 minutes and were down by two with 20 minutes to go, and they leave the Bell Centre with the 2 points. It is unacceptable!

[hab29RETIRED]

With Spacek and Gill out of the lineup, you can't simply take away Subban's 5v5 time.

Subban and Gorges are the only two defencemen on this team capable of playing against the other team's number 1 line.

Does anyone want to see Diaz, Weber, or Emelin matching up against Tomas Vanek and Derek Roy? It would be a 4 or 5 point night for those guys.

We arnen't going to see Diaz, Weber and Emelin show what they are capable of without them getting a chance . I'd be willing to live with the short term pain of them learning from mistakes. When Gill or Spacek make blatent give aways, there ice time doesn't suffer.

How long has Ruff stuck with Myers poor play, before finally make him a healthy scratch. Emelin made one mistake in a game last week and had his ass nailed to the bench. Gill and Spacek make those same mistakes EVERY friggin night.

[Habsfan]

There is one thing i'd like for Subban to do...get himself a fv.cking WOODEN stick for the PP. Is it just me or do his sticks break often during the PP?

[Commandant]

We arnen't going to see Diaz, Weber and Emelin show what they are capable of without them getting a chance . I'd be willing to live with the short term pain of them learning from mistakes.  When Gill or Spacek make blatent give aways, there ice time doesn't suffer.  

How long has Ruff stuck with Myers poor play, before finally make him a healthy scratch.  Emelin made one mistake in a game last week and had his ass nailed to the bench.  Gill and Spacek make those same mistakes EVERY friggin night.

yeah throw them right into the fire and ask them to play against the other team's number one line?  Is there any NHL team that does this with inexperienced Dmen... Not one that has plans of trying to compete anyway.  (Note I'm not talking about someone coming up who was a superstar in junior or the minors, like a Drew Doughty, or even a Subban when we called him up.... I'm talking about putting non-blue chip prospects in that position.)  No team in the NHL would do that with Weber, Diaz and Emelin. They'd all have them breaking in slowly with bottom pairing time until they worked their way up the lineup.

As for Benching guys... hey Eller and Subban both improved after their benchings last year. Luke Schenn was recently benched in Toronto. Tyler Myers benched in Buffalo. A ton of young guys get benched all the time in the NHL, but apparently JM is the only guy who benches people.

[hab29RETIRED]

I agree that they need to go to 2 D at least on the top unit, I don't mind an extra forward on the second unit as PP point options from the D are limited right now.

As for Subban not being used enough on the PP, he leads all Montreal defencemen in that stat...and tonight doubled his PP point production (from 1 to 2). He's a one trick pony out there, long wind up, miss the net, long wind up, miss the net. If he was the Subban of last year, absolutely get him out there but until he stops being so predictable, it's not worth screwing up the 5-on-5 time to play him on the PP more in my opinion.

Isn't that something the COACHING staff should be working with him in practice??? Work with him and commit to using him and Weber let them develop some chemistry.

[Commandant]

JM saying Spacek doubtful for Wednesday, and Gill may not be ready.

Another call up probably coming.

St. Denis? probably our best down there.

Isn't that something the COACHING staff should be working with him in practice???  Work with him and commit to using him and Weber let them develop some chemistry.

Why do you assume they aren't trying to fix Subban's windup in practice?

[Natural Mystic]

Work with him and commit to using him and Weber let them develop some chemistry.

Ditto. I for one, LOVE Weber. Let Pleks do what he does best, play forward! I'd totally put Gomez and Gionta as his wingers for the time being.

[Colin]

yeah throw them right into the fire and ask them to play against the other team's number one line? Is there any NHL team that does this with inexperienced Dmen... Not one that has plans of trying to compete anyway. (Note I'm not talking about someone coming up who was a superstar in junior or the minors, like a Drew Doughty, or even a Subban when we called him up.... I'm talking about putting non-blue chip prospects in that position.) No team in the NHL would do that with Weber, Diaz and Emelin. They'd all have them breaking in slowly with bottom pairing time until they worked their way up the lineup.

As for Benching guys... hey Eller and Subban both improved after their benchings last year. Luke Schenn was recently benched in Toronto. Tyler Myers benched in Buffalo. A ton of young guys get benched all the time in the NHL, but apparently JM is the only guy who benches people.

Martin doesn't bench, he kills confidence. If you make a mistake, you don't go back out if you're a kid. Rather than let someone take a shift or two off to think about it, they tend to get sat and forgotten. And as for Eller, what's the excuse for him playing so little tonight? We could have used him one helluva lot more. IMO Desh is getting points because he's on a line with the two hot hands rather than it being a case of him making the plays to get points. Now, that's not to say he's not making plays, but I have an iggling feeling that if it were Eller in that spot, the line would be a quantum leap better - and far more responsible defensively.

[Commandant]

Martin doesn't bench, he kills confidence.  If you make a mistake, you don't go back out if you're a kid.  Rather than let someone take a shift or two off to think about it, they tend to get sat and forgotten.  And as for Eller, what's the excuse for him playing so little tonight?  We could have used him one helluva lot more.  IMO Desh is getting points because he's on a line with the two hot hands rather than it being a case of him making the plays to get points.  Now, that's not to say he's not making plays, but I have an iggling feeling that if it were Eller in that spot, the line would be a quantum leap better - and far more responsible defensively.

Yup, Subban's confidence was killed by being benched. Eller's confidence was killed by being benched. Sending Pacioretty back to Hamilton ruined the development of an excellent young prospect by killing his confidence. Playing Halak instead of Price, and benching him ruined the confidence of our potential franchise goalie and now we have nothing.

Seems to me the handling of these four key pieces of the team has worked out pretty well in the long run and all four guys have become key members of this hockey club. Martin has also done a good job with Weber, White and Desharnais. Given his track record and the importance of the youth on our current team, plus all the players who developped under him in Ottawa, from Phillips to Redden to Chara to Volchenkov on defence, to Hossa, Havlat, Spezza, and others on forward... I have a hard time questionning his approach to younger players. Sometimes tough love works, and Jacques might just know a thing or two about developping talent.

[Natural Mystic]

The one goal tonight was forward coverage, the other may have been Subans giveaway.

I really dislike the comments on Webs, Diaz and Emelin. Yeah they're not perfect, yet given the circumstances, I think they're doing an excellent job.

I've never been a huge fan of Georges, yet I'm starting to notice his awesome play in the past few weeks.

(why do I never write in paragraphs? lol) Anyways, I think this season thus far, the "issues" have been on the forwards side. With the exception of a few defensive breakdowns, I think the D is pretty good.. again given the circumstances of Markov and Campoli being out. Maybe a little bit more commitment with forward lines would help. Enquist went down and there were weird line combos at times, I was like... huh? Then like Eller disappeared because he doesn't have consistent wingers.

Consistency is the issue this year imho.

[hab29RETIRED]

yeah throw them right into the fire and ask them to play against the other team's number one line? Is there any NHL team that does this with inexperienced Dmen... Not one that has plans of trying to compete anyway. (Note I'm not talking about someone coming up who was a superstar in junior or the minors, like a Drew Doughty, or even a Subban when we called him up.... I'm talking about putting non-blue chip prospects in that position.) No team in the NHL would do that with Weber, Diaz and Emelin. They'd all have them breaking in slowly with bottom pairing time until they worked their way up the lineup.

As for Benching guys... hey Eller and Subban both improved after their benchings last year. Luke Schenn was recently benched in Toronto. Tyler Myers benched in Buffalo. A ton of young guys get benched all the time in the NHL, but apparently JM is the only guy who benches people.

there is a difference benching someone for repeatedly making the same mistakes, and benching a guy like Emelin who is a healthy sratch for a long stretch and then immidiately rides the bench after making his first mistake.

With Subban, his turnaround started last year when JM was FORCED to play him after injuries decimated the habs blue line.

I really think they need to bring in a name former all star (I still say Larry Robinson) would have been the ideal choice. They need someone who has credibility as a former star to work with the young Dman like Subban, Weber, Emelin and Diaz.

What was MaxPac's response while in Hamilton - I don't want to come up to Montreal if I'm going to be a 3rd/4th liner and he was highly critical of JM. He didn't learn anything or get his confidence from his benchings, he learned from his time in Hamilton.

You can't have young players playing timid becuase they are afraid of making a mistake or the repurcssions of making a mistake.

[Natural Mystic]

Yup, Subban's confidence was killed by being benched. Eller's confidence was killed by being benched. Sending Pacioretty back to Hamilton ruined the development of an excellent young prospect by killing his confidence. Playing Halak instead of Price, and benching him ruined the confidence of our potential franchise goalie and now we have nothing.

Seems to me the handling of these four key pieces of the team has worked out pretty well in the long run and all four guys have become key members of this hockey club. Martin has also done a good job with Weber, White and Desharnais. Given his track record and the importance of the youth on our current team, plus all the players who developped under him in Ottawa, from Phillips to Redden to Chara to Volchenkov on defence, to Hossa, Havlat, Spezza, and others on forward... I have a hard time questionning his approach to younger players. Sometimes tough love works, and Jacques might just know a thing or two about developping talent.

He's still not my favourite coach - yet your post is very well said.

Yet there is always another way... making the youth angry isn't the best move... I remember when I was young there was this game against Detroit... lol

[Commandant]

The one goal tonight was forward coverage, the other may have been Subans giveaway.

I really dislike the comments on Webs, Diaz and Emelin.   Yeah they're not perfect, yet given the circumstances, I think they're doing an excellent job.

I've never been a huge fan of Georges, yet I'm starting to notice his awesome play in the past few weeks.

(why do I never write in paragraphs? lol)  Anyways, I think this season thus far, the "issues" have been on the forwards side.  With the exception of a few defensive breakdowns, I think the D is pretty good.. again given the circumstances of Markov and Campoli being out.   Maybe a little bit more commitment with forward lines would help.  Enquist went down and there were weird line combos at times, I was like... huh?  Then like Eller disappeared because he doesn't have consistent wingers.

Consistency is the issue this year imho.

I agree, that given the circumstances Weber, Diaz, and Emelin are doing all that we can possibly expect of them. That said though, I don't think we should be reducing Subban's 5 on 5 time and throwing one of those three to the wolves by having him spend the game matched up against the other team's number one line. I don't think that is fair to them at this point in their development. Sure they need to keep playing and improving but you put them in situations where they can succeed, not in a situation that is over their heads at this point, and that is what asking them to play top players is; putting the over their heads at this point.

[Commandant]

there is a difference benching someone for repeatedly making the same mistakes, and benching a guy like Emelin who is a healthy sratch for a long stretch and then immidiately rides the bench after making his first mistake.

With Subban, his turnaround started last year when JM was FORCED to play him after injuries decimated the habs blue line.

I really think they need to bring in a name former all star (I still say Larry Robinson) would have been the ideal choice.  They need someone who has credibility as a former star to work with the young Dman like Subban, Weber, Emelin and Diaz.

What was MaxPac's response while in Hamilton - I don't want to come up to Montreal if I'm going to be a 3rd/4th liner and he was highly critical of JM.  He didn't learn anything or get his confidence from his benchings, he learned from his time in Hamilton.

You can't have young players playing timid becuase they are afraid of making a mistake or the repurcssions of making a mistake.

Sure MaxPac spoke out against JM's approach, and didn't like it at the time. However the results of his work in Hamilton speak for themselves. We cannot deny that he needed the tie to work on his offensive game, and he's a changed player. He's become a legit goal scoring threat. Ask him today how he feels about JM's earlier decisions and you might get a different answer than when they actually happened.

Same with PK, who was given 20+ minutes before his benching when he first joined the Habs in the 2010 playoffs, and at the beginning of the season last year. His ice time fluctuated with his play. When he played well he got more minutes and when he played badly, he got less. The fact that we were forced to play him only because of injuries, is simply not true. His second benching occured after the injuries to both Josh Gorges and Andrei Markov. Lets also remember that "coaching genius" Guy Boucher also made PK a healthy scratch during his rookie season in Hamilton.

As for having a vet D coach, wasn't that the reason Ladoucer was brought in?

[Natural Mystic]

I agree, that given the circumstances Weber, Diaz, and Emelin are doing all that we can possibly expect of them. That said though, I don't think we should be reducing Subban's 5 on 5 time and throwing one of those three to the wolves by having him spend the game matched up against the other team's number one line. I don't think that is fair to them at this point in their development. Sure they need to keep playing and improving but you put them in situations where they can succeed, not in a situation that is over their heads at this point, and that is what asking them to play top players is; putting the over their heads at this point.

Yeah yeah, for sure. I think if we'd have won tonight we'd be having a different post-game conversation. Anyways, still fun.

Trying to find out why we lost tonight is interesting.

I don't like to say it's the coaching, yet it seems like the weak point in the team chain at the moment. It just feels like the players are being used in weird, out of place situations. Pleks on the point, Darche on the PP, Eller no ice time and no wingers. Cole not in the shootout. Those are my main issues tonight.

EDIT: That said, the team looks better than the start of the season, and are improving very nicely. Alrighty, gonna chill now listen to team990, and then FFR and WoW await me.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Natural Mystic

[hab29RETIRED]

Ditto. I for one, LOVE Weber. Let Pleks do what he does best, play forward! I'd totally put Gomez and Gionta as his wingers for the time being.

I have to disagree with having Gomez and Gionta. I'd rather they stick with MaxPac and COle or Maxpac and Gionta until Cammy and Ak46 return. Leave Gomez for the second unit.

[hab29RETIRED]

Sure MaxPac spoke out against JM's approach, and didn't like it at the time. However the results of his work in Hamilton speak for themselves. We cannot deny that he needed the tie to work on his offensive game, and he's a changed player. He's become a legit goal scoring threat. Ask him today how he feels about JM's earlier decisions and you might get a different answer than when they actually happened.

Same with PK, who was given 20+ minutes before his benching when he first joined the Habs in the 2010 playoffs, and at the beginning of the season last year. His ice time fluctuated with his play. When he played well he got more minutes and when he played badly, he got less. The fact that we were forced to play him only because of injuries, is simply not true. His second benching occured after the injuries to both Josh Gorges and Andrei Markov. Lets also remember that "coaching genius" Guy Boucher also made PK a healthy scratch during his rookie season in Hamilton.

As for having a vet D coach, wasn't that the reason Ladoucer was brought in?

Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree with JM's impact on both Subban and MaxPac. I think its one thing to have a Ladoucer and another having a hall of fame, cup winning guy like Robinson (both as a player and coach), who Blake credited for helping him in his formative years. I think having a winner (like Muller), makes a big difference with young guys as someone they look up to, because they not only have won, but were stars. Mcrimmon in Detroit is another example, as he got positive reviews from his time in Calgary as well.

I have no issues with a player being made a healthy scratch for repeated mistakes. What I can't stand and what has to frustrate the hell out of a young player is when you see Gomez taking a stupid, lazy penalty at a critical time and then having AK46 take the same type of penalty. Ak46 is banished to 4th line duty or to the bench, while Gomez gets off scott free.

Same thing with the Defence last year. We were lucky that Spacek was hurt because for most of the season, he was vomit on ice. Yet for the most part, the only time he paid the price with his ice time is when he couldn't play due to injuries. Yet PK kept on getting benched. I also didn't like who the habs coaching staff didn't back Subban when he was getting ripped for pretty much being black by the Don Cherry's, Mike Richards and other idiots. Why is that Subban got ripped for disrespect when another mouthy (worse in my opinion) rookie like Marchand faced no criticism. Two reasons. One Subban is black and the hockey establishment can't deal with an uppity black player and two the habs as an organization did nothing to deflect criticsm directed at Subban. that starts with the coach.

Last year was a contract year for Ak46, he got off to a hot start and what was Martin's response - encouragment - no. He said that Ak46 is in a contract year. Did he make the same comments regarding Moen who is off to a fast start??? No, because Subban and Ak46 arn't his can't do any wrong golden boys like Darche and Moen.

Darche for the most part has been awful this year. Who would be a more useful player, Darche or Blunden??? WHo is playing???

why the hell isn't Eller getting any decent wingers to play with???? THere are injuries, yes, but he has looked much better then DD for majority of the season.

[Commandant]

Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree with JM's impact on both Subban and MaxPac.  I think its one thing to have a Ladoucer and another having a hall of fame, cup winning guy like Robinson (both as a player and coach), who Blake credited for helping him in his formative years.  I think having a winner (like Muller), makes a big difference with young guys as someone they look up to, because they not only have won, but were stars.  Mcrimmon in Detroit is another example, as he got positive reviews from his time in Calgary as well.

I have no issues with a player being made a healthy scratch for repeated mistakes.  What I can't stand and what has to frustrate the hell out of a young player is when you see Gomez taking a stupid, lazy penalty at a critical time and then having AK46 take the same type of penalty.  Ak46 is banished to 4th line duty or to the bench, while Gomez gets off scott free.

Same thing with the Defence last year.  We were lucky that Spacek was hurt because for most of the season, he was vomit on ice.  Yet for the most part, the only time he paid the price with his ice time is when he couldn't play due to injuries.  Yet PK kept on getting benched.  I also didn't like who the habs coaching staff didn't back Subban when he was getting ripped for pretty much being black by the Don Cherry's, Mike Richards and other idiots.  Why is that Subban got ripped for disrespect when another mouthy (worse in my opinion) rookie like Marchand faced no criticism.  Two reasons.  One Subban is black and the hockey establishment can't deal with an uppity black player and two the habs as an organization did nothing to deflect criticsm directed at Subban.  that starts with the coach.

Last year was a contract year for Ak46, he got off to a hot start and what was Martin's response - encouragment - no.  He said that Ak46 is in a contract year. Did he make the same comments regarding Moen who is off to a fast start??? No, because Subban and Ak46 arn't his can't do any wrong golden boys like Darche and Moen.

Darche for the most part has been awful this year.  Who would be a more useful player, Darche or Blunden??? WHo is playing???

why the hell isn't Eller getting any decent wingers to play with????  THere are injuries, yes, but he has looked much better then DD for majority of the season.

Seems to me that Desharnais and Patches are clicking, why would we break that up? Its workied for Patches all season, and it worked great before in Hamilton. Eller may be the better player, but why mess with a line that is working and scored both goals tonight. Maybe Eller needs some better wingers, but that shouldn't come at the expense of breaking up a line that is scoring.

Blunden is NOT a better player than Darche, and has not been more effective. He is a -2 in very limited ice time. There is a reason he was sent down. Is Darche perfect? no, but he's better than Blunden.

[Trizzak]

Blunden is NOT a better player than Darche, and has not been more effective. He is a -2 in very limited ice time. There is a reason he was sent down. Is Darche perfect? no, but he's better than Blunden.

Darche got his first one-way contract this offseason.

At the moment, it's looking like his last.

He's come crashing down to earth fast and is probably the player sitting in the pressbox when (if?) the Habs get healthy.

[Commandant]

Darche got his first one-way contract this offseason.

At the moment, it's looking like his last.

He's come crashing down to earth fast and is probably the player sitting in the pressbox when (if?) the Habs get healthy.

I agree that Darche is probably the 13th best forward on this team when it is healthy. However I still think he's better than Blunden who has shown me nothing in his time.

[Trizzak]

From hockeyinsideout.com:

Did the Canadiens become too passive during the third period?

Jacques Martin said no.

“The plan is not to sit back at all,” Martin said. “The best defence is offence.

“They put some pressure, we made mistakes. We had a lot of youth on the back end and they took advantage of it.”

[Natural Mystic]

The best offense is defense, the best defense is offense...

maybe they can apply some sort of Taoist philosophy where they are always in the perfect spot, not re-acting or pre-acting but perfect spontaneity.... hmmmmm......

[bbp]

The best offense is defense, the best defense is offense...

maybe they can apply some sort of Taoist philosophy where they are always in the perfect spot, not re-acting or pre-acting but perfect spontaneity.... hmmmmm......

Deep man haha

[Willey101]

I agree that Darche is probably the 13th best forward on this team when it is healthy. However I still think he's better than Blunden who has shown me nothing in his time.

You gotta wonder why Darche still sees PP time. Our PP is not working yet we insist on keeping the same line-up. How about switching Pleks back to center where he has spent the majority of his time on one of the leagues best PP's. If Spacek is OK to play then I would rather have he out there there Pleks on the point.