GDT Sabres vs Habs, Nov. 14, 7 PM EST

[hab29RETIRED]

Seems to me that Desharnais and Patches are clicking, why would we break that up? Its workied for Patches all season, and it worked great before in Hamilton. Eller may be the better player, but why mess with a line that is working and scored both goals tonight. Maybe Eller needs some better wingers, but that shouldn't come at the expense of breaking up a line that is scoring.

Blunden is NOT a better player than Darche, and has not been more effective. He is a -2 in very limited ice time. There is a reason he was sent down. Is Darche perfect? no, but he's better than Blunden.

Why not try having Eller as the centre for MaxPac and DD.

That would allow having a 1st line of Cammy-Pleks-Ak46 and Gionta-Gomez-Cole (when Ak46 and Cammy return), or Cammy and Cole can also be swapped.

4th line would then be Moen-Nokelainen-White, once White is back. In the meantime, I'd rather have Darche in the pressbox and give someone else from Hamilton a chance, because IMO, Darche has been a dog this year and should be sent to the dogs - who cares about the one way contract. That would be one way to get him off the PP!!!

[hab29RETIRED]

You gotta wonder why Darche still sees PP time. Our PP is not working yet we insist on keeping the same line-up. How about switching Pleks back to center where he has spent the majority of his time on one of the leagues best PP's. If Spacek is OK to play then I would rather have he out there there Pleks on the point.

Because Martin is stubborn as a mule. We are playing pretty decent 5 on 5. If we could get the PP going, we wouldn't be in as many nail biters. Last night, would have been over, if we didn't have the same crap PP we have had all year. Yes we are missing Markov, but we KNOW Markov is out. The coaching staff needs to adjust with a better plan then having our most effective setup man in low, drowning on the point.

And we need to get Darche, not only of the friggin PP, he needs to taken out of the lineup!! I honestly think he is only here right now to appease the RDS type and their french quota requirements.

[hab29RETIRED]

From hockeyinsideout.com:

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How many times have we heard this same kind of crap from Martin after a loss (hell this isn't even the first time this year he has says it), yet this has happened many times before, when the young inexperienced D wasn't the reason for the loss.

Yet this is a team that has sat back protecting a one or two goal lead and that is the style he has had them playing his entire time here.

[Commandant]

How many times have we heard this same kind of crap from Martin after a loss (hell this isn't even the first time this year he has says it), yet this has happened many times before, when the young inexperienced D wasn't the reason for the loss.

Yet this is a team that has sat back protecting a one or two goal lead and that is the style he has had them playing his entire time here.

It happens to every team in the league with a lead in the third period. Hell it happened to Team Canada at the 2010 Olympics against both Slovakia and the US in the semifinals and the gold medal game. Last I checked, Mike Babcock was a pretty good coach. The other team starts pressing, and the team with the lead stops taking risks. Its natural, and its not something that is being coached out there.

[brobin]

This team has no killer instinct. They sit back on leads all the time. I don't know if it is the coach or the players, but it is a recurring pattern.

Of course Buffalo pushed in the 3rd, but that doesn't mean you don't push back.

I would be using PK less on the PK, and more on the PP. We need some offense. I do agree the coach should be working on his wind up and stuff, but more time on the top unit would help him hone it. He was very reliable shooting low on net for tips previously in both Belleville and with the Habs.

[Commandant]

Using PK less on the Penalty Kill, who do you use more? You were down to 5 D in the third period..... PK needed to play those minutes because the other 3 guys cannot be given those responsibilities at this point in their career. Especially with a one goal lead for much of the period against a division rival.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I'm pretty tired of the same old debate about Martin. Clearly I share Commandant's general viewpoint and admire the effectiveness with which he has defended his position in this thread. All I'd add is that most teams go into a defensive shell when nursing leads in the third. It may not even be entirely a matter of coaching - it's such a universal tendency that you have to wonder whether players themselves just do start to think 'defence' in that situation and just do start to alter their play, regardless of say. Attacking JM because his team plays passively with leads may be another case of people evaluating the coach against some magical ideal of perfection rather than actual reality - the reality in this case being that most teams sit on leads, period.

As for the PP, it's valid to say JM hasn't made the best use of the personnel, but the FACT remains that we had a good PP last season with the same coach. The difference is crystal clear: we don't have the talent on the blueline to run a power-play. where we did last year. It's not rocket science. Saying it's all big bad JM's fault flies in the face of the obvious. When he's had the horses, he's had a good power play. The end.

[bar]

CC last years PP was different. This years team for some reason refuses to deviate from the cross-crease pass. Last year the points were used more, and I love Plek, but JM is killing my love for him by putting in a postion to fail. I can't see what JM see's in not putting the habs most offensive D man on the second unit (PK). The PP needs to get back to basics of passing and stop with all this cross-crease play, it's so predictable. The PP worked last year cause Wiz and PK had great chemistry, Wiz could serve up a frozen puck at the perfect speed for Subbans wind up. I find when Subban gets passes this year they are of the slow rolling variety and gives opposing PKers tons of time to get in front.

You mentioned the habs had the same PP last season with the same coach as well? That's kind of a error on your part, Wiz and Muller are gone...that has had a huge effect on the habs special teams.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

bar, that's a good point about Muller. But we've now had two different coaches specializing on the power-play, neither of which has gotten results. You can trace it all back to bad ol' Martin, but at some point the responsibility devolves onto the players themselves. Really, where's the beef? If some opposition team were throwing out our defence corps to run their PP, you'd feel anything but worried. The only guy who would concern you would be Subban, and he has simply been limp on the PP this season. Spacek, Gorges, Emelin are big fat zeroes as offensive defencemen, and Weber and Diaz are totally raw (though Weber has moments). When it comes to offence, there is no substitute for talent, skill, and confidence. Ya can't coach that.

I promise you this. When Markov returns, the power play will gradually become more effective. And then not one voice will be heard crediting Martin for his excellent PP coaching.

[bar]

The thing is Emelin is offensive he lead the KHL in pts last season for D. Diaz, and Weber are great puck movers. I don't see what the concern is with PK/Weber and Diaz/Emelin pairings on the back end. You're right about you can't coach skill, but on the face it looks like JM does a lot of his coaching based on preception e.g. (his comment about Cole PP production), if the PP is going to be bad, let it be bad and teach kids at the same time.

I know I'm acting like the PP is a simple fix, cause you were right CC this is the same group for the most part that has been top 5 for the last couple of years. I believe it's a case of JM getting in his own way, let the kids play, he seems to not want this to happen.

As an aside, remember the past couple of years everyone's concern at the lack of 5 on 5 scoring and now that's all the habs do and it's the PP thats the concern, it's kind of funny

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

I'm not saying JM is infallible. Like everyone else, I think Pleks on the point has failed. This being so, you might as well go with Weber or Diaz or whoever. The difference between me and the haters is, I doubt that doing so will yield singificantly better results, because I think it fairly obvious that Weber, Diaz, or (heaven help us) Emelin aren't 'there' yet.

A further thought on Muller: the PP sucked balls last season after Markov got hurt, which is why Gauthier went out and acquired Wisniewski in the first place. This is still more proof that the fundamental problem is the talent, not the coaches. The empirical evidence to this effect is pretty overwhelming.

It's good that we have become a solid 5-on-5 team. This is yet another area where the double standard is huge. Those committed to loathing Martin, or this iteration of the team in general, used our mediocre 5-on-5 play two years ago as proof of the irreparable mediocrity of our coach and/or players. Now, they are using our PP struggles as irreparable proof and ignoring the good 5-on-5 work.

Like I said - wait for Markov (and maybe Campoli), after the inevitable initial slump, the ship will start righting itself, at least with the man advantage. (Of course, at that point, Subban, Price or some other key element is infallibly destined to suffer grave injury, so the hating will be able to continue unabated)

[Habsy]

I'm not a "stats" guy. But I do love the one pointed out by local radio man Tony Marinaro. Habs record at home, last 17 starts, including pre-season, 3-11-3. Ya, I know, pre-season doesn't count, but wow, what a laughable record.

[Commandant]

I wouldn't want to give Emelin the responsibility of trying to run the PP as well.

One thing is obvious about this kid. He has all the tools, the size, the physicality, willing and able shot blocker, good passing, good skating, good shot, etc... to be a solid #3 or even #2 NHL defenceman. I see in his game a ton of talent. His biggest issue right now is that he has no ability to put those tools together. Its a classic example of a ton of tools but no tool box. His positioning right now in the defensive zone is atrocious. He is completely lost back there and has no idea where he's supposed to be.

This of course isn't fatal, and its to be expected in any adjustment of a guy like him from KHL sized ice, to North American ice and the increased speed of the NHL. I think that the coaching staff is working very hard with him on his defensive game and adjusting to the proper angles he needs to play in the NHL. Given that this is a big adjustment, and it would appear that Diaz is well ahead of him in these aspects, I would let him continue to focus on this aspect of his game. Its where he needs to improve, and I think he will get there if given time, and coaching.

However, I wouldn't put him on the PP because that is just adding more responsibility to a guy who is barely treading water with the responsiblities he has. Once he can get better in his own zone, at that point I would start adding some offensive responsibility to his game.

For now... my point men on the PP would be Subban - Weber, Diaz - Spacek (if healthy)... if not I'd use Gorges in that role. Its true that Plekanec is just not working as the point man, and he's needed to play forward.

[Chris]

The PP is definatley killing the team. As others mentioned, JM is so stubborn when putting pleks on the point. I don't get it. They have Subban, Diaz, Weber and Spacek (injured) now all are better choices then pleks.

know matter what the coaches and players said, they sat back and relied on Price to win the game. The poster whio said they have no killer instinct hit the nail on the head. That is a trade mark of JM teams. That and taking alot of hooking and holding penalties. Jm does have alot of good qualities including having a decimated team at 500.

You have to feel bad for Price, he has to give up 2 goals or less every night just to get a point.

[KamalPanesar]

Plex and Weber have the chemistry of a rancid goat and an obese squirrel.

LOL!

Hilarious, but slightly insulting to goats...

[Habsfan]

“The plan is not to sit back at all,” Martin said. “The best defence is offence.

I almost fell off my chair when I heard JM make that statement!! This coming from a guy who has ALWAYS preached defense first. What a load of horse shit! There's a reason why the habs are scoring about 2.5 goals per game over the past threee season (and have always been in the bottom 3rd of the league for scoring since the arrival of JM).

For him to say that "the best defense is offense" just goes to show how much he thinks were idiots!

[habs rule]

jm is a decent coach who has no personality. you may hate him because he is a cold fish or penguin or whatever but the results he has gotten with this team are pretty impressive. I think there are people on this site who will hate him even if we win a cup. Well actually they will tell you it was because we got lucky or the assistants are the genius or some other cockamamy story. it gets tiring after a while. I get a real kick out of the guys who hate gauthier, what a terrible job he as done, he has managed to plug all the holes as cheaply as he can, repeatedly due to the staggering amount of injuries we have had. This team is going to be ok, just as soon as we can get some guys back in the line up, then we will trade some extras for something good hopeully. Just have a little faith.

[Colin]

Yup, Subban's confidence was killed by being benched. Eller's confidence was killed by being benched. Sending Pacioretty back to Hamilton ruined the development of an excellent young prospect by killing his confidence. Playing Halak instead of Price, and benching him ruined the confidence of our potential franchise goalie and now we have nothing.

Seems to me the handling of these four key pieces of the team has worked out pretty well in the long run and all four guys have become key members of this hockey club. Martin has also done a good job with Weber, White and Desharnais. Given his track record and the importance of the youth on our current team, plus all the players who developped under him in Ottawa, from Phillips to Redden to Chara to Volchenkov on defence, to Hossa, Havlat, Spezza, and others on forward... I have a hard time questionning his approach to younger players. Sometimes tough love works, and Jacques might just know a thing or two about developping talent.

While ostensibly your point is well taken, I'm not convinced of how strong it really is.

With regards to Subban and Patches, the argument can be made that they were going to get there anyhow, and considering Patches didn't like the way he was handled, one has to wonder if he might have got there sooner without Martin. Of course, that's pretty easy to say on my part, but with guys who are laden with talent, I tend to believe that if they've got the motivation, they're going to make it.

Regarding Desh, I'm confused. He's come into the league and is making hideous defensive errors, is a turnover machine, and yet has been made the second line centre. Yes, he has chemistry with Patches, and that's great, but why is he being placed in a situation where he can succeed when Eller, who has far more skill and potential IMO, is playing significantly less and quite often has guys who should be in the AHL for wingers. Martin's method of development seems so random to me. Sure, we don't know the emotional makeup of the players, which could certainly have a bearing, but does Desh really deserve the time he's getting? And since when has chemistry meant anything to Coach I-Change-My-Lines-Every-Shift? Yes, exaggeration, but I hope you can see what I feel is a very strong point between the differences in nurturing Desh vs Eller.

Then there's the Ottawa guys you listed. Now, I don't know where you're from or how much you follow the Sens, but I live here and I know far more than I want to know. Phillips has been a moderate success story - in fact, I'll accept an argument that he played his best under Martin. The same could potentially be argued for Redden. Chara, however, was passed over because he wasn't good enough in Ottawa; it was him or Redden, and it was pretty clear. He was solid, but wasn't expected to be much more than a #4 guy. He blossomed elsewhere.

Havlat is a flake and wasn't anything special in Ottawa. He's a guy with endless talent who just doesn't care very much (can you hear me Kovalev?) Hossa was basically an instant success, and has continued that everywhere he's gone. Martin had nothing to do with bringing out his skills.

Then there's Spezza. Who was tortured by Martin and, a great many might tell you, held back. He has more talent than almost anyone else in the game, but his confidence was brutalized. He made a tiny mistake and he was benched for games. He played small minutes for long stretches. Why does a guy like Hossa get instant minutes, but a guy like Spezza get treated so poorly. Yes, he sucked in his own zone, but there are a few players it shouldn't matter for. I mean really, do you think anyone in Washington gives a crap if Ovechkin does anything other than just get back and make a token effort? Spezza has mad skills, but wasn't allowed to play and learn. He was held back.

Anyhow, just my opinion. And again, it's not like I don't like Martin, I just think his schtick is just about done here. And I'm not convinced he's doing right by some of the players. I don't like the way he seems to play favourites.