bbp Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The trade doesn't look that bad... but look at playoff performance. Cammy lit it up when it mattered most. Thats what will be tough to replace. Bourque may play well with the change of scenery, but considering he has the tendency to disappear will the Montreal media and general pressure be to much? We will have to wait and see on this one. I think this trade really depends on the pick and what we do with the extra cap space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The trade doesn't look that bad... but look at playoff performance. Cammy lit it up when it mattered most. Thats what will be tough to replace. Bourque may play well with the change of scenery, but considering he has the tendency to disappear will the Montreal media and general pressure be to much? We will have to wait and see on this one. I think this trade really depends on the pick and what we do with the extra cap space. Bourque really didn't seem as enthusiastic coming here as Cammy seemed going back to Calgary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Bourque really didn't seem as enthusiastic coming here as Cammy seemed going back to Calgary. Dude, I read your every word, and appreciate the fire in your posts. But c'mon. We weren't getting Corey Perry or Steven Stamkos. So now he doesn't look happy to be traded here? Oh well, we suck. Also, Francois Gagnon thinks more players on the return flight home were happy than sad he's gonzo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 . 3) Bourque is not an upgrade over AK46. This trade signals to me that we lost two scorers. And are most likely going to be filling them with downgrades for both both players. Not 100% convinced they aren't still trying to sign AK46. You still need 3 lines worth of offensive wingers, and moving Cammy and AK out while only bringing in Bourque creates a hole. I think they try and keep him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Dude, I read your every word, and appreciate the fire in your posts. But c'mon. We weren't getting Corey Perry or Steven Stamkos. So now he doesn't look happy to be traded here? Oh well, we suck. I know we weren't getting stamkos or perry. But i had hoped that with the right package we could have gotten a young centre prospect, or even a blue chip scorer prospect. One team that I think would have been a great fit, given their playoff failures is the caps. They probably would have wanted a playoff guy like Cammy and Gill for a guy like Kuznetsov. Instead we get someone else's dirty laundry. Not 100% convinced they aren't still trying to sign AK46. You still need 3 lines worth of offensive wingers, and moving Cammy and AK out while only bringing in Bourque creates a hole. I think they try and keep him. I hope you are right - but have my doubts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Washington didn't have the cap space to take on Cammy. Sure you can say... Semin out Cammy in is the same cap space... but that only works this season. What does Washington do next year when Vokoun doesn't take a second straight year of a discount... when Mike Green gets a raise, when John Carlson gets a raise, and when Dennis Wideman needs replacing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Washington didn't have the cap space to take on Cammy. Sure you can say... Semin out Cammy in is the same cap space... but that only works this season. What does Washington do next year when Vokoun doesn't take a second straight year of a discount... when Mike Green gets a raise, when John Carlson gets a raise, and when Dennis Wideman needs replacing. i think we could have done what Burke has been willing to do. Take on a bad contract for this year like a Semin. Given Green's health issues, I think if we took on Semin, another contract they don't want like Schultz and the rights to Kuznetsov, for Cammy, Gill and Weber, they may have bit. I just wish that our management would think out of the box to find ways to get a truly elite player on this team. I don't like replacing a 1st liner with a 2nd/3rd liner. Especially one who has the same attitude issues (potentially worse) then they guy we are moving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 i think we could have done what Burke has been willing to do. Take on a bad contract for this year like a Semin. Given Green's health issues, I think if we took on Semin, another contract they don't want like Schultz and the rights to Kuznetsov, for Cammy, Gill and Weber, they may have bit. Even if we take on Semin, it doesn't solve the Cap issue they'll have next year. This year, sure... but next season Semin is gone... Cammy isn't. I just wish that our management would think out of the box to find ways to get a truly elite player on this team. I don't like replacing a 1st liner with a 2nd/3rd liner. Especially one who has the same attitude issues (potentially worse) then they guy we are moving. This we 100% agree on. I don't care what the numbers say, there is no denying that Mike Cammalleri is a far superior TALENT to Rene Bourque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Even if we take on Semin, it doesn't solve the Cap issue they'll have next year. This year, sure... but next season Semin is gone... Cammy isn't. This we 100% agree on. I don't care what the numbers say, there is no denying that Mike Cammalleri is a far superior TALENT to Rene Bourque. I think by taking on Schultz who is signed for I beleive over $3M it should help them out. I also don't see them keeping all of their guys next year (i.e. they have a lot of same type of 2nd/3rd teir players like knuble, brower, chimera, laich, halpern), so they will probably need to move some of them. Gill is probably done next year and Weber provides them with a cheap young dman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I don't care what the numbers say, there is no denying that Mike Cammalleri is a far superior TALENT to Rene Bourque. Cammy has 1 superior talent. However, when he's not using it, he's pretty much worthless. Definitely worth less than $6M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Cammy has 1 superior talent. However, when he's not using it, he's pretty much worthless. Definitely worth less than $6M. His one talent is scoring goals... a pretty damn good talent to have on the roster, and one that every hockey team needs. For a team that doesn't score enough goals, trading a player with this talent, at his lowest possible value, isn't a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huzer Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 His one talent is scoring goals... a pretty damn good talent to have on the roster, and one that every hockey team needs. For a team that doesn't score enough goals, trading a player with this talent, at his lowest possible value, isn't a good thing. That would imply his value would go up at some point. He hasn't cracked 30 goals with the Habs, and playoffs aside, he hasn't exactly been Mr. Clutch. At $6M, he should be leading this team in goals. Significantly. Unfortunately for Montreal, rather than be a centerpiece player, Cammalleri has show (in Montreal) that he's simply a secondary player. One that when he doesn't score goals, as he has not done prolifically in Montreal, does not contribute much on the ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTH Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Does the rest of the team getting bigger matter when your most offensively gifted centremen are under 6'? Obviously. I would prefer to phrase it: Does the size of three of your best centers matter when your team is generally big? What's the magic of the center position? Nobody would ask the same question if it was the left wingers that were small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 That would imply his value would go up at some point. He hasn't cracked 30 goals with the Habs, and playoffs aside, he hasn't exactly been Mr. Clutch. At $6M, he should be leading this team in goals. Significantly. Unfortunately for Montreal, rather than be a centerpiece player, Cammalleri has show (in Montreal) that he's simply a secondary player. One that when he doesn't score goals, as he has not done prolifically in Montreal, does not contribute much on the ice. In the last 15 years, there have been only 4 players who have scored 30 or more goals for the habs. Kovy, Ryder (twice), Zednik and Rechhi. I think this is an indictment more on management of the team then the players. Why is it that that every player who comes here has their numbers generally go down and why is it that players that leave suddenly look better??? It's the style of play and the inability of management to get a top notch center. Koivu's the best centre this team has since Damphouse and after his injury in his rookie year he has always been a 1a, or suited for a number 2 role. the guy had a heart of a lion, inside a glass body. If Gainey had brought in a guy who was actually WORTH $7.2M instead of Gomer pyle when he signed Cammy and brought in a coach who was offensive minded and suited for the guys he was bringing in, Cammy could have topped 30 goals. Frankly, even though Ovechkin is on pace to score only score 30 to 35 in Washington, if he was on Montreal he may not even have been able to score 25 goals on our current team. The only two true first line players this team has traded for or signed in 15 years are Kovy and Cammy. that is an indictment on management. They have not traded for a true #1 dman. As much as I dislike the neanderthal Burke, he did trade for #1 Dman in Phaneuf and did so by only giving up a bunch of 3rd/fouth liners (no I don't consider Hagman or stajen 1st or even 2nd liners). I would never have been willing to give up 2 first round draft picks - particulary given the team the leafs had, but at least he did trade for a 1st liner in Kessel. he also raped anaheim by dumping a contract (blake) that everyone felt was immovable. He picked up Liles very cheap from Colorado and got a king's ransom for Kaberle from the bruins. PG on the other hand has constantly wasted picks on rentals (Moore - why the hell wasn't he resigned), didn't even TRY or make some sort of an offer for Wiz - maybe he woudn't heave signed - but damnit make an offer at least. During the season, he could have tried to sign Wiz for the same money Kaberle is making now. How many gm's or teams make it a regular habit of trading from a position of weakness??? The habs killed any chance of getting any sort of return for Sk74 and traded him for two UFA's. Who the hell would have given up that much for those two UFA's - its not like he traded for the rights to Brad Richards or something!!!! Laps was traded for nothing. D'Agostini started scoring after leaving here. Lats exploded until getting injured. Why the hell do we do such a lousy job in developing our players. THey managed to save MaxPac by FINALLY sending him down last year to redicover his game. And the comments on this site that other gm's weren't doing their job by not trying to find out if Cammy was available are RIDICULOUS!!!!! WE are trying to get a return. The onus is on GAUTHIER, and NOT other Gm's to maximize the return for montreal. If other GM's are not calling him, its their loss, but more so it's OUR loss. PG needs to get on the damn phone and market his player and create a market for his player - that is part of his damn JOB!!!!! We are not going to make the playoffs (PG may still be delusional that this team can make the playoffs), he needs to make a deal that helps us today and tomorrow. Maximum value for players is obtained at the deadline. Why WOULD"NT you create an auction situation leading up to the deadline????? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbhatt Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 In the last 15 years, there have been only 4 players who have scored 30 or more goals for the habs. Kovy, Ryder (twice), Zednik and Rechhi. I think this is an indictment more on management of the team then the players. Why is it that that every player who comes here has their numbers generally go down and why is it that players that leave suddenly look better??? It's the style of play and the inability of management to get a top notch center. Koivu's the best centre this team has since Damphouse and after his injury in his rookie year he has always been a 1a, or suited for a number 2 role. the guy had a heart of a lion, inside a glass body. If Gainey had brought in a guy who was actually WORTH $7.2M instead of Gomer pyle when he signed Cammy and brought in a coach who was offensive minded and suited for the guys he was bringing in, Cammy could have topped 30 goals. Frankly, even though Ovechkin is on pace to score only score 30 to 35 in Washington, if he was on Montreal he may not even have been able to score 25 goals on our current team. The only two true first line players this team has traded for or signed in 15 years are Kovy and Cammy. that is an indictment on management. They have not traded for a true #1 dman. As much as I dislike the neanderthal Burke, he did trade for #1 Dman in Phaneuf and did so by only giving up a bunch of 3rd/fouth liners (no I don't consider Hagman or stajen 1st or even 2nd liners). I would never have been willing to give up 2 first round draft picks - particulary given the team the leafs had, but at least he did trade for a 1st liner in Kessel. he also raped anaheim by dumping a contract (blake) that everyone felt was immovable. He picked up Liles very cheap from Colorado and got a king's ransom for Kaberle from the bruins. PG on the other hand has constantly wasted picks on rentals (Moore - why the hell wasn't he resigned), didn't even TRY or make some sort of an offer for Wiz - maybe he woudn't heave signed - but damnit make an offer at least. During the season, he could have tried to sign Wiz for the same money Kaberle is making now. How many gm's or teams make it a regular habit of trading from a position of weakness??? The habs killed any chance of getting any sort of return for Sk74 and traded him for two UFA's. Who the hell would have given up that much for those two UFA's - its not like he traded for the rights to Brad Richards or something!!!! Laps was traded for nothing. D'Agostini started scoring after leaving here. Lats exploded until getting injured. Why the hell do we do such a lousy job in developing our players. THey managed to save MaxPac by FINALLY sending him down last year to redicover his game. And the comments on this site that other gm's weren't doing their job by not trying to find out if Cammy was available are RIDICULOUS!!!!! WE are trying to get a return. The onus is on GAUTHIER, and NOT other Gm's to maximize the return for montreal. If other GM's are not calling him, its their loss, but more so it's OUR loss. PG needs to get on the damn phone and market his player and create a market for his player - that is part of his damn JOB!!!!! We are not going to make the playoffs (PG may still be delusional that this team can make the playoffs), he needs to make a deal that helps us today and tomorrow. Maximum value for players is obtained at the deadline. Why WOULD"NT you create an auction situation leading up to the deadline????? Hell of a post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habsy Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 His one talent is scoring goals... a pretty damn good talent to have on the roster, and one that every hockey team needs. For a team that doesn't score enough goals, trading a player with this talent, at his lowest possible value, isn't a good thing. I suppose this is a debatable stat, but, Cammi is a career -27. Which suggests what we already know. If the "streaky" scorer isn't scoring, he's useless. Local radio says Bourque is +10 career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The only two true first line players this team has traded for or signed in 15 years are Kovy and Cammy. that is an indictment on management. They have not traded for a true #1 dman. I'd add Cole to that mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalhabs Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I have a hard time believing that Gauthier didnt take the best offer he could get. He wouldnt get to become GM of an NHL team if he didnt know basics like that. All whining in this thread makes this season even more depressing than it should be. Some of you people seem to think Gauthier isnt any better than a 10-year old playing GM-mode in EA's NHL games and I promise you that is NOT the case. The trade isnt bad. If we wouldve traded Cammy when his value was at its highest that means he would be playing awesome... you people complaining here would still complain but instead of whining about the return of the trade you would cry about WHY we traded a player that is playing great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revvvrob Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Typically, GMs get a fax ... really? a fax? in 2012? hockey is our pass-time, hockey is a GMs livelihood. I don't believe for a millisecond GMs didn't know Cami was available. all they are doing is either proving THEIR incompetence or (more likely) using that defense to explain why they didn't either make an offer for Cami or why they were unsuccessful at landing Cami themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Obviously. I would prefer to phrase it: Does the size of three of your best centers matter when your team is generally big? What's the magic of the center position? Nobody would ask the same question if it was the left wingers that were small. The magic of the centre position is due to the defensive responsibilities it entails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hab29RETIRED Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'd add Cole to that mix. I agree. Although, to be honest, I really didn't expect him to be as good as he's been. Expected him to be a 2nd liner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Again though there are 7 teams who Cammy could block a trade to. What are the chances that the the GM who didn't know he was available was the GM of one of those teams. Until we know what GM is saying this, we don't know that Gauthier didn't explore every option. I agree completely that PG got what Cammy was worth today. The issue I have is trading him today. The more I look at PG the more I see that individually the moves are for the most part good (kostitsyn excepted) but the whole is less than the sum of the parts acquired, and the timing on the deals is bad. He's a good hockey guy, and a smart hockey guy, but he doesn't play the management game very well. That would imply his value would go up at some point. He hasn't cracked 30 goals with the Habs, and playoffs aside, he hasn't exactly been Mr. Clutch. At $6M, he should be leading this team in goals. Significantly. Unfortunately for Montreal, rather than be a centerpiece player, Cammalleri has show (in Montreal) that he's simply a secondary player. One that when he doesn't score goals, as he has not done prolifically in Montreal, does not contribute much on the ice. Cammalleri is a streaky scorer, has been his whole career... eventually he would have got on a streak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habinator33 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 There were 7 teams in his NTC but you also have to factor in teams that Montreal was unwilling to deal with. Like I highly doubt Boston or Toronto was on his NTC but I highly doubt Montreal would be willing to trade a player of Cammalleri's calibre to either of those teams as well as a few others. So I don't buy into this whole complaint about GMs saying I didn't know he was available and thus PG only talked to Calgary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 It shouldn't be taken as gospel that players' numbers are bound to decline up coming to Montreal. This was partly true under JM's system (although not for Cole). But Cunneyworth is NOT JM. It's reasonable to budget Bourque for 25+ goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 It shouldn't be taken as gospel that players' numbers are bound to decline up coming to Montreal. This was partly true under JM's system (although not for Cole). But Cunneyworth is NOT JM. It's reasonable to budget Bourque for 25+ goals. The same players haven't seen an explosion in points under cunneyworth though. Only Eller has really seen a jump in his numbers and that was all one game. (small sample I know). Two things have jumped under Cunneyworth though... Goals Against and Losses.... 3-8-0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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