Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Like we did with Price? Since Timmins has been in charge here the only big screwup is Fisher, and every team has a screwup. I have a lot of faith in how he judges these guys. Yeah, the only areas I think our coaching staff needs to work on is noticing player habits in junior and scouting the OHL better (they seem to be afraid of picking in the OHL). Otherwise, I'd consider Timmins and co. to be the best high pick drafters in the league right now. We always seem to find the gems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 I don't know he's afraid of the OHL, he averages about 1 pick per draft out of the OHL since he took over, and got guys like Subban, Weber, Dagostini, Stewart from there who all played in the NHL. ===================================================================================== As for Carter.... party boy lifestyle.... 10 year contract... Montreal as a city.... I wouldnt touch him with a 20 foot pool. You guys can ask MoLG on this, but I had rumors about Carter and Richards months before they were actually traded at the site we used to be on. I have friends from school who now live in a suburb of Philadelphia, they actually live a few houses away from Chris Pronger and have become friends with him and his wife. They told me a lot of things about Richards and Carter even before they were traded. I even predicted months before the deal that if Philly flopped in the playoffs both would be traded. Basically the two of them didnt work hard in practice, were among the laziest guys in the gym, and lived a party heavy lifestyle where they would go out and get drunk every night, and may have been indulging in other things as well. They have a sense of entitlement. They learned it from Simon Gagne, and that is one of the reasons he was traded one year before, it was hoped that with Gagne as the influence gone, they would start looking up to Pronger and become more professional, but it didn't happen, they actually got worse. Of the three, Carter was the worst and among the worst players Pronger's ever seen in the NHL. Binging him to Montreal? Disaster written all over that one. With that contract and the fact it lasts for 10 years, and what I've heard about him, you've got potential here to make the gomez trade look like a minor mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 I don't know he's afraid of the OHL, he averages about 1 pick per draft out of the OHL since he took over, and got guys like Subban, Weber, Dagostini, Stewart from there who all played in the NHL. Subban is probably his most prolific OHL pick but it goes without saying that he's much more comfortable selecting in the WHL and the US programs than he is with the OHL. We've seen off the board picks when solid OHL picks were available. Honestly, it's probably not so much Timmins and more where Montreal has positioned their scouts. I think we need more scouts for the OHL than anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Honestly, it's probably not so much Timmins and more where Montreal has positioned their scouts. I think we need more scouts for the OHL than anything. What's interesting is that one of Montreal's more well known scouts, Frank Jay (poached from the Sens a few years back), is an OHL guy. Of course, even if they're not picking from a certain area, the scouting reports are still important years later so it's not like it's a complete waste that he's out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 What's interesting is that one of Montreal's more well known scouts, Frank Jay (poached from the Sens a few years back), is an OHL guy. Of course, even if they're not picking from a certain area, the scouting reports are still important years later so it's not like it's a complete waste that he's out there. One of the things that makes me happy about this team is that I really feel like some of our picks are not based on someone else's information but Montreal's information. Picks like Gallagher, Pribyl, Avitsyn, etc. feel like picks that a Montreal scout told Timmins to make, not Timmins picking on a scouting report. Trading for Bournival always made me laugh because you just know that was a guy Timmins really wanted but they just couldn't trade for the draft pick in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 I don't know he's afraid of the OHL, he averages about 1 pick per draft out of the OHL since he took over, and got guys like Subban, Weber, Dagostini, Stewart from there who all played in the NHL. ===================================================================================== As for Carter.... party boy lifestyle.... 10 year contract... Montreal as a city.... I wouldnt touch him with a 20 foot pool. You guys can ask MoLG on this, but I had rumors about Carter and Richards months before they were actually traded at the site we used to be on. I have friends from school who now live in a suburb of Philadelphia, they actually live a few houses away from Chris Pronger and have become friends with him and his wife. They told me a lot of things about Richards and Carter even before they were traded. I even predicted months before the deal that if Philly flopped in the playoffs both would be traded. Basically the two of them didnt work hard in practice, were among the laziest guys in the gym, and lived a party heavy lifestyle where they would go out and get drunk every night, and may have been indulging in other things as well. They have a sense of entitlement. They learned it from Simon Gagne, and that is one of the reasons he was traded one year before, it was hoped that with Gagne as the influence gone, they would start looking up to Pronger and become more professional, but it didn't happen, they actually got worse. Of the three, Carter was the worst and among the worst players Pronger's ever seen in the NHL. Binging him to Montreal? Disaster written all over that one. With that contract and the fact it lasts for 10 years, and what I've heard about him, you've got potential here to make the gomez trade look like a minor mistake. Cool inside dirt, Commandant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Yeah, backing up what Commandant said. It's also why I had confidence in the Flyers this year while everyone else was writing them off. That and I think Bryzgalov is a spectacular goalie. Might not be playing up to his potential yet but he's still a spectacular goalie. Oh, and my mancrush on Jagr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwihab Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Last time this happened, the Crosby year when we picked Price, there was a lottery for I think only the first round. I think it was still weighted depending on where you finished 2 years earlier, but everyone still had a chance at #1. It really sucked that the pens were able to get Malkin with the #2 pick the year earlier and then got Crosby the following year. Firstly I highly doubt we lose next season due to a lockout. I dont think we are in close to the same situation we were in, in 2004. Now there is nothing forcing them to do this again, but they already came up with a plan once... the league-wide lottery with rules based on how many playoff appearances teams had, and how many first overall picks, etc... that they used for Sidney Crosby's draft in 2005. For the only time ever, the league used a "snake format" for the draft.... ie if you picked last in the first round, you picked first in the 2nd round. Here is the article. http://www.cbc.ca/sp...raft050713.html Thanks for the answers. Commandant I hope you're right about no lockout, although bearing in mind it is a higher possibility than most other years, it makes this year a great one to tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbp Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Thanks for the answers. Commandant I hope you're right about no lockout, although bearing in mind it is a higher possibility than most other years, it makes this year a great one to tank. Though the results of a bad season for the habs would be better with a lockout I really don't want to have to deal with a year without hockey like the last time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenadian Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Like we did with Price? Since Timmins has been in charge here the only big screwup is Fisher, and every team has a screwup. I have a lot of faith in how he judges these guys. Price WAS the top ranked NA goalie, went 5th and several lists had him in the 5-10 range (TSN's McKenzie had him at #7 In the last eight years, McKenzie is 204 of 240 in terms of projecting first rounders (85 percent). So your Price argument doesn't work for me, he went "around" where he was slotted to go.............what else ya got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 Price WAS the top ranked NA goalie, went 5th and several lists had him in the 5-10 range (TSN's McKenzie had him at #7 In the last eight years, McKenzie is 204 of 240 in terms of projecting first rounders (85 percent). So your Price argument doesn't work for me, he went "around" where he was slotted to go.............what else ya got. Okay, so who were you referring to when you were worried about the Habs going "off the board". David Fisher is really the only one. But he was a 20th overall pick... not a top 10, and the Habs had already traded down once (and reportedly attempted to trade down again, but no one wanted to move up). Is there some reason to fear us going "off the board" with a top 5 pick? Ive seen LA (Thomas Hickey) and Minnesota (Blake Wheeler) do it, but why do you think we would? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 http://thehockeyguys.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/THGTop30DraftRankings-FEB.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willey101 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I question the Habs scouting in the Q. Surely there is a presence but they don't seem to focus their times here anymore. The son of a client of mine is draft eligible this coming season and is looking to go somewhere in the 3rd round. He has apparently had discussions with about 12 different clubs but for some reason Montreal is not one of them. I wonder why Montreal seems to general overlook the Q until late in the draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 I question the Habs scouting in the Q. Surely there is a presence but they don't seem to focus their times here anymore. The son of a client of mine is draft eligible this coming season and is looking to go somewhere in the 3rd round. He has apparently had discussions with about 12 different clubs but for some reason Montreal is not one of them. I wonder why Montreal seems to general overlook the Q until late in the draft. So the Habs are 1 of 18 teams that havent talked to this potential 3rd rounder, and that makes you question their presence in the entire league???? When it comes to 3rd, 4th, 5th rounds, there are guys picked in those rounds who teams generally don't even like. From watching a bunch of behind the scenes style shows... a team's draft list is usually between 90-110 names, and that is sufficient to cover all 7 rounds, despite the fact that there are 210 draft picks made. There are ton of guys who will be picked by other clubs who montreal wont even like, and the same will happen for every club in the NHL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 People just need to remember it isn't just about the Top 5. It's also about having a 2nd Round pick that's like a high 1st, a 3rd Round pick that's like a high 2nd, etc. We can fill our prospect system quite nicely with a low finish. Big time. In deep drafts the begining of the 2nd round can be like a late to mid 1st rounder and so on and so forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I question the Habs scouting in the Q. Surely there is a presence but they don't seem to focus their times here anymore. The son of a client of mine is draft eligible this coming season and is looking to go somewhere in the 3rd round. He has apparently had discussions with about 12 different clubs but for some reason Montreal is not one of them. I wonder why Montreal seems to general overlook the Q until late in the draft. the top francophone in QMJHL is ranked 57th by ISS, so it aint a hot bed for players, so it would pay to scout WHL/OHL, Europe and USHL long before even bothering with the Q. wouldnt it? After the first couple rounds it is really a crap shoot, even Detroit took 6 flops before fluking out with Datsyuk. Now the SEL is one place the Habs have avoided for some reason? cant even remember the last Swedish Hab pick to play regular shift for Habs? At least Habs take a token francophone or 2 every year, but none have paid off yet, cept maybe Ellis (whom i think wil do well). Archambault is the latest and is not too promising is he? Whereas a Gallagher or Holland play in a tougher more defensive league and produce more NHLers, as does the OHL. Why the Q seems to be so thin in talent seems odd, fewer kids playing maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 As I've said in a different thread, I bet Timmins wanted Michael Bournival very much but Montreal just couldn't swing a draft pick at the time and as time went by, Colorado's defence depleted and they were willing to send Bournival to Montreal for Ryan O'Byrne. Bournival is a Timmins kind of player. Spends a ton of time in the gym and is always seeking ways to develop. What Montreal should do when it comes to Q scouting is have someone search for gems and then the GM can load up on fifth and sixth round picks and select a couple locals. The Quebec junior system is in complete shambles and people still seem to be in denial about it. It really hurts the kids. I also find that a lot of the time, Montreal just doesn't have a draft pick near the good French kid. Take Marc-Andre Gragani for example. He was a third round pick in 2005 but Montreal didn't have a pick anywhere near where Buffalo selected him. Same with Marc-Eduoard Vlasic (if Montreal couldn't move up to take Latendresse, maybe they would have selected Vlasic). Jason Demers is often mentioned but Montreal just didn't have a pick anywhere near him (selected Trunev at 138 and Johnson at 206. Demers was 186). Sure there have been a few blunders (not selecting Giroux) but otherwise it's completely circumstance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Ducks win to keep them 1 point back of us. Coming out today are Bob McKenzies mid season rankings, always interesting and his ranks are usually closest to the actual draft order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueKross Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I think the Canadiens run their draft oblivious to every one else. They do their own thing. I don't think they run a control list along side their own rankings. You see the Detroits and the Phillies of the world swoop down and pick off players that were missed in the early rounds in the later rounds. Montreal however seems to be looking at picks they believe should be in that round. I know it isn't quite that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Some good analysis in this thread of the dismal state of the QMJHL. This is one of the things that drives me crazy with the whining about the lack of French talent on the Habs. The talent pool coming out of Quebec is so pathetically thin that the odds of landing an NHL-calibre francophone are extremely low. People mewl about Claude Giroulx, etc., but the point is that scouts aren't clairvoyant, as shown by the fact that 21 teams picked other players before him. If there are only a tiny number of legitimate Quebec prospects then - assuming that the team is drafting on merit rather than ethnicity - whether your team ends up with one boils down to sheer fluke. If we want to see more Quebecois playing on the Habs, then the answer is not to attack the Canadiens, but rather to ensure that there are sufficient numbers of NHL-quality prospects coming out of the system that the percentages favour a team picking up one or two in its dragnet on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Some good analysis in this thread of the dismal state of the QMJHL. This is one of the things that drives me crazy with the whining about the lack of French talent on the Habs. The talent pool coming out of Quebec is so pathetically thin that the odds of landing an NHL-calibre francophone are extremely low. People mewl about Claude Giroulx, etc., but the point is that scouts aren't clairvoyant, as shown by the fact that 21 teams picked other players before him. If there are only a tiny number of legitimate Quebec prospects then - assuming that the team is drafting on merit rather than ethnicity - whether your team ends up with one boils down to sheer fluke. If we want to see more Quebecois playing on the Habs, then the answer is not to attack the Canadiens, but rather to ensure that there are sufficient numbers of NHL-quality prospects coming out of the system that the percentages favour a team picking up one or two in its dragnet on a regular basis. And Giroulx is not even a Quebec born player he is an Ontario kid who played in the Q because no one even wanted him anywhere in junior hockey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Future Considerations February http://futureconsiderations.ca/top-rankings/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMMR Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Future Considerations February http://futureconside...a/top-rankings/ Beautiful site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I bought their guide last year right before the draft, well worth it. I'm not a huge fan of buying the midseason guide, the preseason guide etc... all the ones they come out with... ause i think its repetitive, but the final ranking that comes out in late may is well worth it if you like knowing about the draft past the first round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Bob McKenzie http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=387177 http://www.tsn.ca/tradecentre/feature/?id=58415 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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