TheDriveFor25 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Nurse has tons of potential.. looks like he'll be a good one. If you could get Hall, Nurse, Yak, and 4 for Subban and a 2nd (or next years 1st) - yikes. That's tough. Draft a forward at 4 and a dman at 9. Team is completely different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 By your responses I think I have way over valued Nurse. I thought he was a star stud defenceman in the making. Thanks for the input! I agree, he is a star stud defenceman in the making. Why wait for him to (hopefully) become that when we already have a star stud defenceman who gets nominated for Norris trophies and wins Norris trophies? Why do we want to take this team backwards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDriveFor25 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 If you can move the offense forward by sacrificing a little defense, i'm all for it. You have Carey Price, the best player on the planet. He makes up for the deficiencies on D, he cannot score goals. Get some scorers!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 If you can move the offense forward by sacrificing a little defense, i'm all for it. You have Carey Price, the best player on the planet. He makes up for the deficiencies on D, he cannot score goals. Get some scorers!! Subban is a major part of our offence. How is this not understood by habs fans who watch the games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDriveFor25 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Subban is a major part of our offence. How is this not understood by habs fans who watch the games? I'm not saying Subban isn't a major part of the offence. I'm saying the offence needs to be better. Too many Canadiens fans believe you cannot improve by trading Subban and that simply isn't true. It would have to be a monster return, but the team could be better without him on the backend. If you trade Subban for the players I mentioned earlier and then somehow sign a Shattenkirk - you're a better team. People keep talking like Subban IS the Canadiens, and this is Price's team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I'm not saying Subban isn't a major part of the offence. I'm saying the offence needs to be better. Too many Canadiens fans believe you cannot improve by trading Subban and that simply isn't true. It would have to be a monster return, but the team could be better without him on the backend. If you trade Subban for the players I mentioned earlier and then somehow sign a Shattenkirk - you're a better team. People keep talking like Subban IS the Canadiens, and this is Price's team. You are underestimating the value of PK Subban in all three zones. But sure, if we can replace him with a legit #1 defenceman AND add a monster up front, then it'd be worth doing. Since this is a borderline impossibility, I don't know why fans continue to talk about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 and then somehow sign a Shattenkirk - you're a better team. People keep talking like Subban IS the Canadiens, and this is Price's team. Subban is a pillar of this team. He's one of our best offensive players. He's the best defensive player that isn't a goalie. You're creating some hail mary scenario that holds the team back if everything perfect doesn't fall into place because... why? We don't have to give anyone up to get goals. We just have to sign free agents. We're not doing that without P.K. on the blueline. He's the third best scoring D in the league in the past five years. Second most assists in that same five years. Sorry if you don't see it, but while Subban isn't Carey Price, this team goes nowhere without P.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Top roster forward (Tavares keeps coming to mind), top prospect, 1st pick needed for starters to get Bergevin's attention on Subban. But doubt that is happening anytime soon, which is fine by me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDriveFor25 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Subban is a pillar of this team. He's one of our best offensive players. He's the best defensive player that isn't a goalie. You're creating some hail mary scenario that holds the team back if everything perfect doesn't fall into place because... why? We don't have to give anyone up to get goals. We just have to sign free agents. We're not doing that without P.K. on the blueline. He's the third best scoring D in the league in the past five years. Second most assists in that same five years. Sorry if you don't see it, but while Subban isn't Carey Price, this team goes nowhere without P.K. What free agent out there is the answer to our scoring woes? The broken Erikkson? Perron? Okposo at 6 or 7 million? There is nobody out there, besides Stamkos, that is a HUGE upgrade to what is already on the team. The team goes nowhere without Subban? You mean the team goes nowhere without Price. PK is an amazing player and currently my favorite Hab, but he's overrated in the eyes of many Canadiens fans. I don't think a return of Hall, Nurse, Yak, and the 4th is all that unreasonable considering how desperate Edmonton is. If you think that doesn't improve the Canadiens next year and for years to come, then I guess we can agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habs rule Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 You are underestimating the value of PK Subban in all three zones. But sure, if we can replace him with a legit #1 defenceman AND add a monster up front, then it'd be worth doing. Since this is a borderline impossibility, I don't know why fans continue to talk about it. Yes all this crazy talk must stop now. We are not trading PK. What would the children's hospital do? Anybody think about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davehab Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 What free agent out there is the answer to our scoring woes? The broken Erikkson? Perron? Okposo at 6 or 7 million? There is nobody out there, besides Stamkos, that is a HUGE upgrade to what is already on the team. The team goes nowhere without Subban? You mean the team goes nowhere without Price. PK is an amazing player and currently my favorite Hab, but he's overrated in the eyes of many Canadiens fans. I don't think a return of Hall, Nurse, Yak, and the 4th is all that unreasonable considering how desperate Edmonton is. If you think that doesn't improve the Canadiens next year and for years to come, then I guess we can agree to disagree I actually agree with you about the trade. that gives the habs a lineup something like this Patches Galchenyuk Yakupov Hall Dubois (sp) Gallager Eller Plekanic Desharnes Plug Plug Plug Markov Petry Beaulieu Nurse Sergachev/Juolevi/Chychrun Emelin (I know that I haven't accounted for LD or RD but whatever this is purely hypothetical) I also really like Subban but if you can get a ridiculous deal for him then its worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 The team goes nowhere without Subban? You mean the team goes nowhere without Price. PK is an amazing player and currently my favorite Hab, but he's overrated in the eyes of many Canadiens fans. I don't think a return of Hall, Nurse, Yak, and the 4th is all that unreasonable considering how desperate Edmonton is. If you think that doesn't improve the Canadiens next year and for years to come, then I guess we can agree to disagree. If you don't know how crucial Subban is game in and game out carrying the bulk of the offensive charge into the offensive zone you must have some serious black outs when watching Habs games. Do they happen when Price isn't on the screen? Subban is not the best player in the world when healthy like Price is, but Price doesn't have anything to do with our offensive prowess. Subban does. He's more important than Galchenyuk. He's more important than Pacioretty. He's more important than Gallagher. Defencemen rarely have as many points as forwards so there's Subban with only 28 points less than Pacioretty in the last 3 seasons as our second best regular season point producer. Then There's Subban leading the team in assists in the last 3 seasons. There's Subban leading the team in average minutes. Flip to the playoffs and Subban is our top playoff scorer with 8 points more than #2 Pacioretty. Subban has the same amount of assists as Pacioretty has points. How am I overrating him? Does being the top playoff scorer for the team mean nothing? Does being the top assist producer mean nothing? That's not important to you? For all defencemen in the playoffs that have played at least 30 games in the past three years, Subban has the best points per game average in the entire league. Better than Burns, better than Letang, better than Keith, way better than Doughty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDriveFor25 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 If you don't know how crucial Subban is game in and game out carrying the bulk of the offensive charge into the offensive zone you must have some serious black outs when watching Habs games. Do they happen when Price isn't on the screen? Subban is not the best player in the world when healthy like Price is, but Price doesn't have anything to do with our offensive prowess. Subban does. He's more important than Galchenyuk. He's more important than Pacioretty. He's more important than Gallagher. Defencemen rarely have as many points as forwards so there's Subban with only 28 points less than Pacioretty in the last 3 seasons as our second best regular season point producer. Then There's Subban leading the team in assists in the last 3 seasons. There's Subban leading the team in average minutes. Flip to the playoffs and Subban is our top playoff scorer with 8 points more than #2 Pacioretty. Subban has the same amount of assists as Pacioretty has points. How am I overrating him? Does being the top playoff scorer for the team mean nothing? Does being the top assist producer mean nothing? That's not important to you? For all defencemen in the playoffs that have played at least 30 games in the past three years, Subban has the best points per game average in the entire league. Better than Burns, better than Letang, better than Keith, way better than Doughty. Burns doesn't have to be as good.. the Sharks have scorers. Letang doesn't have to be as good.. the Pens have scorers. Keith doesn't have to be as good.. the Hawks have scorers. Doughty doesn't have to be as good.. The Kings have scorers. All four of those teams are perennial cup contenders because they are FAR more balanced. Subban is one of the top 10 defencemen in the league, no doubt. Maybe top 5. But we need to be a more balanced team. Again, I don't want to trade Subban unless it is for an unreal return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Burns doesn't have to be as good.. the Sharks have scorers. Letang doesn't have to be as good.. the Pens have scorers. Keith doesn't have to be as good.. the Hawks have scorers. Doughty doesn't have to be as good.. The Kings have scorers. All four of those teams are perennial cup contenders because they are FAR more balanced. Subban is one of the top 10 defencemen in the league, no doubt. Maybe top 5. But we need to be a more balanced team. Again, I don't want to trade Subban unless it is for an unreal return. The Kings scored a whopping SEVEN!!! more goals than us this past season. The season where at one point it felt like we couldn't hit the net for two months and will be picking 9th overall. That's the team you want to say doesn't need their Just won the Norris trophy defenceman to be as good because balance? In 14-15 the Blackhawks, Kings, and Penguins scored six more goals than us at most. The Sharks scored 10 more goals than us that year. Letang does have to be good. Keith does have to be good. Doughty does have to be good. Burns does have to be good. When Subban isn't good, you'll notice the whole team suddenly falls apart. Same with Price. Why? They are the pillars of the team. You break either pillar and the team falls apart. You can't replace them with potential. You have to actually replace their minutes with someone who can play as good as or better. You're not gonna do it for Subban adding a defenceman that doesn't even play his position and had the same amount of points as Mark Barberio in 39 more games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commandant Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 In the last 20 years one team has one the stanley cup without a legit stud defenceman... the Hurricanes in 2006... thats it. Every other cup winner had a ing stud on defence. We have a stud Why give him up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRP Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 There is no way trading Subban helps this team. Hall, Nurse, Yak, this years Edm pick, combined does not make the Montreal Canadiens instantly better, couple holes filled up front, and a schism created on the defense. Non-sensible. Price's puck playing ability, and Subban's skill set makes this team's offense run. Lack of goaltending crippled us last year, not lack of offense solely. When it comes right down to it, the team in the playoffs that ices the best 5 man unit will win more than they lose, our top five players are almost there, Patch, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Subban and Petry are pretty good, add some punch to a second line, and we are right there with the best of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 In the last 20 years one team has one the stanley cup without a legit stud defenceman... the Hurricanes in 2006... thats it. Every other cup winner had a ######ing stud on defence. We have a stud Why give him up? Proposal for Bergevin trade him, I think partially is to make that big trade that dosent centre on a bottom six player, talking heads are promoting it every day leading up to Subban's NTC and the return would be awesome. And if LeBrun says Bergevin is receiving multiple calls on P.K., so all must wonder what GMs might be offering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davehab Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 all I'm saying is if you get an 'out of the ballpark' type of offer you really have to think about it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stogey24 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Le Brun also said that western teams have called about Subban and Bergevin immediately shut them down. He's not going anywhere. It's just something to talk about during the dog days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DON Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 all I'm saying is if you get an 'out of the ballpark' type of offer you really have to think about it.... Is just darn hard to think of a deal that would make it worthwhile for the Habs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Great discussion here. Some people just don't understand the importance of defencemen in general (and by extension, a monster defenceman like Subban). They don't just patrol the d-zone. They are essential drivers of the entire offence. The forwards can't do jack without defencemen there to generate the transition game AND quarterback the play in the offensive zone, especially on the PP. If we add a stud forward while subtracting Subban, I guarantee you our offence will be substantially worse. (This is why I will always build a team from the red line out, and why the first thing I do when assessing a roster is look at the blueline. It's not always right, but more often than not, it is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine of Loving Grace Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 all I'm saying is if you get an 'out of the ballpark' type of offer you really have to think about it.... You certainly listen. You also look at who a team is willing to trade to you and see if you can work out a different trade. That's how we got a 2nd and Pateryn for Grabovski. That was originally the discussion in the situation we got Mats Sundin signed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chicoutimi Cucumber Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 You certainly listen. You also look at who a team is willing to trade to you and see if you can work out a different trade. That's how we got a 2nd and Pateryn for Grabovski. That was originally the discussion in the situation we got Mats Sundin signed. What became of that 2nd rounder, incidentally? (I know, I could look it up, but I'm just lazily wondering if anyone knows the answer offhand) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlbalr Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 What became of that 2nd rounder, incidentally? (I know, I could look it up, but I'm just lazily wondering if anyone knows the answer offhand) Flipped for Robert Lang. Edit: Boy, that pick (32nd overall) traded hands a lot. After Chicago got it from the Habs in the Lang trade, they traded it back to Toronto in a trade-down at the draft move (selecting Brandon Saad with one of the picks they got in return). Toronto then moved it to Boston as part of the Kessel deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REV-G Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 This has been a great discussion, while we're waiting! I think where I was going with this is that is there a legitimate, doable deal say with Edmonton that would make sense for us to trade PK. Subban is one of my top three Canadiens, Price, Gally and PK and I absolutely see his value to us. No question. I guess our speculation here is whether Edmonton would grossly overpay to finally get that caliber defenceman to go along with McDavid and that is more where I was heading. That would give them something special for years to come and maybe bump them out of the rut and the culture that they're in. I'm thinking that if we get their 4th, say Dubois, and draft the best defenceman available with our 9th pick, and get Hall and a top pairing defenceman, plus something else, and then pick up a top defenceman in free agency, would that not be a game changer and maybe the kind of blockbuster deal we need? Just saying, I think that kind of deal, if Edmonton was desperate enough, could be something very special for us. And something where all the pieces don't come together very often. So it's certainly worth kicking some tires to see if there's anything that makes sense. I'm certain there have been huge deals struck just with this kind of back an forth between GM's and someone [MB] suddenly gets interested! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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