Permanent Trade Proposal Thread

[TurdBurglar]

1 hour ago, Plutarch said:

I really just don't want to have lost sergachev for nothing haha. At least a 4th round pick next year will give hope of a future hahaha.

I think you need to reside yourself to the fact that Montreal lost Sergachev for nothing, it happens.  Focus more on a few good year from Tatar and now having Suzuki for Pacioretty and a 2nd round pick for all the years we got out of Petry, now having Matheson.

[tomh009]

6 hours ago, Plutarch said:

I really just don't want to have lost sergachev for nothing haha. At least a 4th round pick next year will give hope of a future hahaha.

Water under the bridge. I really couldn't care less about the Sergachev trade at this point.

[dlbalr]

10 hours ago, Plutarch said:

Salary caps are tight atm so in theory retaining salary slots are valuable but we didn't see a lot of third party retaining on trades at the previous deadline, despite the hype. If memory serves.

 

So I'm not honestly concerned about using slots for single year retainment when we have three open atm.

 

On Drouin. I think there are very few options out there.

 

the only opportunity to get something from Drouin is 50% retained. So I was thinking of replacing guys on a team that have a $2.75M cap hit and aren't fitting. Appleton makes sense to me because Winnipeg has a offensive winger hole in their top six, a top six that is basically just given offensive zone starts. Plus Winnipeg's bottom six has been fine without him, new young guys playing well, and he's having the rough season advanced stat wise.

 

For a move like that I thought a guy in management or coaching who may have faith in Drouin (I imagine no upstairs manager likes him from Tampa, Habs or Halifax times from holdouts and disappointing play here) so that leaves coaches from TB or HFX... Hence Bowness mattering.

 

I think that's our best shot at something in return. Then next year we flip Appleton retained. He is an NHLr who gets shots in close and is defensively responsible. He will get grabbed at 1.1M next trade deadline. Plus his rough season is mainly in the context of being slightly overpaid and a 4 SH% so retaining and him shooting average could get us a 4th next year? (Probably more than we'd get for Drouin). And Apple won't take top six minutes away from our young forwards (like Hoffmann or Drouin) to showcase.

 

Anyways I think that may be the best bet for Drouin? I couldn't find anything else haha.

 

The Habs would get a better return as a third-party retainer (of which those deals are being more common each year) than they would by retaining on Drouin.  No one is going to want Drouin.  Bowness may have coached him but he's known for being a demanding coach who wants intensity and defensive play.  Drouin provides neither of those so he'd be in the doghouse within a game and a half.  I don't think the Jets would take Drouin at 50% for free as a result let alone give something up for him.  Like I said, their best bet at getting something for Drouin would be taking back another sizable unwanted expiring deal and there aren't a lot of those out there.  Give up on the idea of getting value for him, it's not happening. 

 

If Winnipeg has the budget room to add a top-six forward (and with their attendance down, that's not a given), there will be many better options than Drouin to choose from.  Bowness may not have coached that player many years ago but that other player would almost certainly be a better fit for the way they play.

 

I'm not quite sure why you're pushing Appleton.  He's a dime-a-dozen bottom-six winger who, quite frankly, isn't all that useful aside from killing penalties.  That's why Seattle gave him back to Winnipeg for a fourth-rounder last year when his contract was less than $1 million.  This is not the type of player to acquire with the idea of flipping him a year later with retention as all you're going to get is a mid-round pick at best.

[Plutarch]

On 12/13/2022 at 7:11 AM, dlbalr said:

 

The Habs would get a better return as a third-party retainer (of which those deals are being more common each year) than they would by retaining on Drouin.  No one is going to want Drouin.  Bowness may have coached him but he's known for being a demanding coach who wants intensity and defensive play.  Drouin provides neither of those so he'd be in the doghouse within a game and a half.  I don't think the Jets would take Drouin at 50% for free as a result let alone give something up for him.  Like I said, their best bet at getting something for Drouin would be taking back another sizable unwanted expiring deal and there aren't a lot of those out there.  Give up on the idea of getting value for him, it's not happening. 

 

If Winnipeg has the budget room to add a top-six forward (and with their attendance down, that's not a given), there will be many better options than Drouin to choose from.  Bowness may not have coached that player many years ago but that other player would almost certainly be a better fit for the way they play.

 

I'm not quite sure why you're pushing Appleton.  He's a dime-a-dozen bottom-six winger who, quite frankly, isn't all that useful aside from killing penalties.  That's why Seattle gave him back to Winnipeg for a fourth-rounder last year when his contract was less than $1 million.  This is not the type of player to acquire with the idea of flipping him a year later with retention as all you're going to get is a mid-round pick at best.

I guess I wasn't clear in my earlier posts. I was trying to find possible moves for each player. That doesn't mean they are the best moves.

 

I wasn't focusing on Appleton because I want him. He just was the expendable player that has SOME potential value next season to flip for a mid round pick. Having a bottom six guy next year to play harder defensive minutes then flip for a 4-5th isn't a terrible move. IF you can't find a use for your retention spots.

 

Also I find it very hard to believe we will be using all three of our retention slots this deadline without one on Drouin.

 

I 100% do not mean to be rude but you say these three way retention trades are increasing... They aren't as far as I can tell. 2020: 1 Lehner, 2021: 3 Janmark, Foligno, Savard. 2022: 1 Domi. Basically there was one year where it happened more. It will take off in the future but not yet. Maybe it's GM's not liking helping out the teams or owners arent into taking on salary just yet due to lost revenues (yes they are high now but maybe they are still hesitant).

 

I guess I don't see why the idea of losing one of our retention spot for the 1 or 2 deals that might use it when there are likely 10 other teams capable. Makes a retaining Drouin trade a terrible idea.

 

Sure the Winnipeg one might be not great but i don't see any other team that would be vaguely interested. So realistically Drouin probably is just going to hang with us the rest the season.

 

[dlbalr]

40 minutes ago, Plutarch said:

Also I find it very hard to believe we will be using all three of our retention slots this deadline without one on Drouin.

 

I 100% do not mean to be rude but you say these three way retention trades are increasing... They aren't as far as I can tell. 2020: 1 Lehner, 2021: 3 Janmark, Foligno, Savard. 2022: 1 Domi. Basically there was one year where it happened more. It will take off in the future but not yet. Maybe it's GM's not liking helping out the teams or owners arent into taking on salary just yet due to lost revenues (yes they are high now but maybe they are still hesitant).

 

I guess I don't see why the idea of losing one of our retention spot for the 1 or 2 deals that might use it when there are likely 10 other teams capable. Makes a retaining Drouin trade a terrible idea.

 

Sure the Winnipeg one might be not great but i don't see any other team that would be vaguely interested. So realistically Drouin probably is just going to hang with us the rest the season.

 

One retention slot will be Monahan and I'm quite confident at least one will be a third-party retention slot.  They're already being linked as a team that's expected to do so and with them having some LTIR room, they can do so without much issue.  I think the preference for #3 right now is Dadonov who should have more value than Drouin's (which isn't saying much).  Hoffman would be a darkhorse if they opt to retain a bit to match salary in a player-for-player swap which would be better than retaining 50% on Drouin for next to nothing.  I was hoping Byron might be back at some point and him at 50% for his PK ability might have had a taker or two but that's not happening by the looks of it.

 

Five of those in three years is an increase compared to what it was before although truth be told, I thought there were more last year.  I know I wrote about third-party possibilities enough on PHR that I suspected there were more than that a year ago but I do appreciate you taking the effort to look that up.  I do expect there will be several moves like that this season.  With some sellers having retention slots and not much of value to trade, they'll get creative and with way more cap-strapped teams this time around, they'll find willing partners.

 

With Drouin, I just don't see a team that would want him, including the Jets.  If you're a team that wants to go far in the playoffs, is he really who you'd want to add?  If the answer is no, then they should be pivoting toward looking for other options to use those slots on.  Maybe I'm wrong and he goes on a nice run and someone wants him.  That'd be nice but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

[Plutarch]

On 12/14/2022 at 4:35 PM, dlbalr said:

 

One retention slot will be Monahan and I'm quite confident at least one will be a third-party retention slot.  They're already being linked as a team that's expected to do so and with them having some LTIR room, they can do so without much issue.  I think the preference for #3 right now is Dadonov who should have more value than Drouin's (which isn't saying much).  Hoffman would be a darkhorse if they opt to retain a bit to match salary in a player-for-player swap which would be better than retaining 50% on Drouin for next to nothing.  I was hoping Byron might be back at some point and him at 50% for his PK ability might have had a taker or two but that's not happening by the looks of it.

 

Five of those in three years is an increase compared to what it was before although truth be told, I thought there were more last year.  I know I wrote about third-party possibilities enough on PHR that I suspected there were more than that a year ago but I do appreciate you taking the effort to look that up.  I do expect there will be several moves like that this season.  With some sellers having retention slots and not much of value to trade, they'll get creative and with way more cap-strapped teams this time around, they'll find willing partners.

 

With Drouin, I just don't see a team that would want him, including the Jets.  If you're a team that wants to go far in the playoffs, is he really who you'd want to add?  If the answer is no, then they should be pivoting toward looking for other options to use those slots on.  Maybe I'm wrong and he goes on a nice run and someone wants him.  That'd be nice but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

I also hold almost no hope for a Drouin trade... I also hope more three way retention trades happen.

 

Maybe it hasn't happened yet because GMs collective hesitancy to start using a tool which will lead to future all ins being even more expensive in terms of picks or owners not interested in basically paying for late low chance of success picks.

 

The dam will break eventually.

[tomh009]

There are some suggestions that the Rangers should trade Lafreniere to the Habs, but I suspect at this point it's just based on (1) him not fitting in in NY and sitting in the press box, and (2) him being French.

 

But is there a deal that could be made that could actually make sense for both teams? Could St-Louis rejuvenate Lafreniere? Could the Rangers be enticed by something like Hoffman (can provide some immediate scoring help for them) and a 2nd? Or would the Rangers still be looking for a first-round pick? (Not so keen on giving up either one of ours.)

[Habsfan89]

45 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

There are some suggestions that the Rangers should trade Lafreniere to the Habs, but I suspect at this point it's just based on (1) him not fitting in in NY and sitting in the press box, and (2) him being French.

 

But is there a deal that could be made that could actually make sense for both teams? Could St-Louis rejuvenate Lafreniere? Could the Rangers be enticed by something like Hoffman (can provide some immediate scoring help for them) and a 2nd? Or would the Rangers still be looking for a first-round pick? (Not so keen on giving up either one of ours.)

I see him as Drouin 2.0 and don't want to give up a player from our new young core. Unless maybe they're willing to take Anderson then maybe. But man I just see Drouin 2.0

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

53 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

There are some suggestions that the Rangers should trade Lafreniere to the Habs, but I suspect at this point it's just based on (1) him not fitting in in NY and sitting in the press box, and (2) him being French.

 

But is there a deal that could be made that could actually make sense for both teams? Could St-Louis rejuvenate Lafreniere? Could the Rangers be enticed by something like Hoffman (can provide some immediate scoring help for them) and a 2nd? Or would the Rangers still be looking for a first-round pick? (Not so keen on giving up either one of ours.)

 

I am sure there is a deal to be made but is Montreal the right place for a young guy struggling? He would really be under the microscope in Montreal. Expectations would be high. Having said that, St . Louis might be the right coach for him. I wouldn't want to give up a first this year. Interesting to speculate about. 

[TurdBurglar]

I could see something involving Edmundson, but Lafreniere is on the final year of his entry-level deal, so he wouldn't be cheap.

 

I could also see something involving salary retention for the much speculated Kane too.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

Lafreniere would be intriguing, but - the Guy Lafleur example aside - I am always concerned about a kid whose production flatlines over multiple seasons. He’s getting mediocre numbers playing with elite linemates.

 

Of course, the same could have been said about Kirby Dach, who has been a very welcome addition.

 

I guess it would all depend on what we’re sending back, but as long as we are not making the trade based on the assumption that he’s an elite talent, it could be worth pursuing. I imagine the Dach trade is a fair analogy.

[DON]

Bit different, like Drouin he is from Quebec, which for 31 other teams wouldnt matter one bit.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

42 minutes ago, DON said:

Bit different, like Drouin he is from Quebec, which for 31 other teams wouldnt matter one bit.

 

Yeah, well, needless to say, we should not pay a special premium to get the French kid. We’ve done that at least twice before (Denis Savard and Jonathan Drouin) with catastrophic results. If we do go for the kid, it should be as a pure hockey trade and nothing else.

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

50 minutes ago, The Chicoutimi Cucumber said:

 

Yeah, well, needless to say, we should not pay a special premium to get the French kid. We’ve done that at least twice before (Denis Savard and Jonathan Drouin) with catastrophic results. If we do go for the kid, it should be as a pure hockey trade and nothing else.

 

Agree 100% and I don't think Hughes will fall into the trap of over paying because he is French. 

[alfredoh2009]

The French Quebec factor does not matter to Hugh-Gort. They will not pay premium for Lafreniere 

[DON]

16 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

The French Quebec factor does not matter to Hugh-Gort. 

Who you trying to kid?

[tomh009]

27 minutes ago, DON said:

Who you trying to kid?

So far we have no evidence that it does, so am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

[GHT120]

28 minutes ago, tomh009 said:

So far we have no evidence that it does, so am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

With Lafreniere it may be more likely to be Gorton having been involved with his drafting.

[alfredoh2009]

I am pretty pretty sure that the French thing is not a factor for this management.

honestly, that’s what I see

[Habs Fan in Edmonton]

26 minutes ago, alfredoh2009 said:

I am pretty pretty sure that the French thing is not a factor for this management.

honestly, that’s what I see

 

That's what I see as well. Willing to take a chance for the right deal. I think Hughes is patient and calculating. 

[TurdBurglar]

Its also hard to separate yourself from the old management when you fall into the same traps as they did.

[alfredoh2009]

7 hours ago, TurdBurglar said:

Its also hard to separate yourself from the old management when you fall into the same traps as they did.

I would not go that far, they have not yet fallen into the same traps 

 

I believe that the French factor was a positive for many generations but the demise of the LJMQ has made it impossible to continue the tradition 

 

That being said, I just feel like Gorton doesn’t care and that Hughes and no one in the rest of the staff will ride that battle horse

[DON]

Edmundson's play seems very poor since returning from injury, he trade value cant be that high is it?

 

[GHT120]

3 minutes ago, DON said:

Edmundson's play seems very poor since returning from injury, he trade value cant be that high is it?

 

All it takes is a GM that sees Stanley Cup winner on his resume and feels that the proverbial "change of scenery" will bring back Joel's game.

[The Chicoutimi Cucumber]

22 minutes ago, GHT120 said:

All it takes is a GM that sees Stanley Cup winner on his resume and feels that the proverbial "change of scenery" will bring back Joel's game.

 

Don’t forget that he was also a key cog on the Habs 2021 Finals run. Any struggles this season will be dismissed as a result of the Habs’ collective awfulness.

 

GMs will pay.